326 réponses à ce sujet

[o Ventus]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Logic. And even the holokid says it.

What kind of logic dictates that a potential AI based directly on positive morality would evolve into cold ambivalence? The same kind of logic that dicates that Jarvis would eventually evolve in Brainiac?

The Catalyst also says "the chaos will come back" after Destroy, but I don't think anyone would question that his statement there is BS.

An ecosystem functions on caring? You don't say?

I don't recall saying anything about caring, but at this point you don't seem entirely foreign to strawmanning my (and other peoples') arguments. Ecosystems function because of cooperation. Using your logic, why would any godlike entity have any need for anything at all? It's functionally immortal, doesn't require sustenance, and doesn't need to breathe or sleep. There would be no reason for ambivalence to begin with.

It's all in the thread and if you'd bother to read it, you'd see that little of it originates with me.

"The thread" is a little vague. Do you mean this thread? I don't recall anyone ever mentioning anything of this sort besides you.

And speaking as objectively as possible, even if it makes me sound a tad arrogant, I'd rather stick to my theory which at least required some thought in adapting the ideas of others,

So you're doing this:

than to blindly accept what a slideshow tells me or to join the legions of haters mindlessly repeating "hurr Shepard will start Reaping again lolololol"

Just replace the word "slideshow" with "theory".

I have to admit though, I like the way you imply that I "blindly follow" anything.

[Iakus]

ginner dave wrote...

Are there any actual legit, in game examples of synthesis being a good thing. When synthesisers are citing positives, all I seem to read is exaggerated claims courtesy of headcanon land. eg 'That one husk stopped and looked up, therefore, every Reaper troop is now alive and previous mind returned.'

Those humans/guns attached to cannibals arms are gonna have a brah time.

Humans and Batarians, finally coexisting. As siamese twins apparently.

Nope.

In fact, meddling with tech we don't truly understand has almost universally been a bad thing

[Element Engine]

That doesn't apply in this case. The Reapers were well aware of what would happen if organics and synthetics mixed.

[Arcian]

ruggly wrote...

I still need to watch that. I've heard nothing but good things about it.

It's incredibly corny in an oddly good way.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Actually, I think that organics introducing tech to their own bodies is different than anything the Reapers do. Much different. None of your examples are of Reaper tech. That's a lot different than Reaper tech.

I don't remember Reaper-tech ever being brought up in the context of the ending.

And it's not ridiculous. Tell me where I'm wrong, objectively, with my interpretation of what Synthesis is.

It actually starts with knowing what, exactly, a Reaper is.

As a Reaper, there are these conditions to your life: (1) an AI has created you; (2) that AI is in control of you, until further notice; (3) your mind/persona is the amalgamation (sp?) of billions of inviduals uploaded into your body.

Husks are just glorified combat-drones. Victim is dead and gone, it's nothing but a given Reaper's Tyco RC.

In all, nothing here sounds like what we're told about Sync, unless you happen to know something we don't.

And whatever the word I use, lets put it this way: I think that after Synthesis, all life that is ever to exist afterward in the Milky Way will be Reaperized. Does that work better?

Without reason to believe the qualities/conditions of life bear similarities to the Reapers, I'd still reject that notion.

Well, seeing as we don't get specifics and it's ill-defined, I'm going to be a stubborn jackass and say that the next cycle won, conventionally, due to ample preparation time and preparedness. It'll be a long, bloody, and costly fight, but in the end, they win.

Headcanon wins the day.

Um, sure.

[Iakus]

Element Engine wrote...

That doesn't apply in this case. The Reapers were well aware of what would happen if organics and synthetics mixed.

Oh, if the Reapers are aware, it's okay then.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Of course isn't the refuse ending a form of synthesis? It's done via the killing and slushie method. It's forced synthesis. But but it's "preserving" advanced" organic life. Whereas Synthesis is pre-emptive slushie of all organic life. It destroys all organic and synthetic life. I too, believe it is reaperized. The "circuit boards" would obviously be reaper tech.

And @MassivelyEffective "They fought a terrible war so we wouldn't have to." -- The next cycle didn't have to fight a long and bloody war. They knew the crucible didn't work. Headcanon: enough of us got away and started building nukes and nuking the reapers while they were on the ground harvesting our planets. We gave up trying to save anyone. The war was so costly for the reapers there were not very many of them left when their harvest was finished and they limped back into dark space. The woman in the picture looks Asari indicating they were successful in their quest for continuity of civilization and thus developed their tech early and prepared the next cycle. They learned not to withhold tech, and the next cycle kick the reapers right square in the daddy bags.

And HYR, I never did reject the Internet or technology. You just like to take everything to the extreme.

[KaiserShep]

jtav wrote...

Then you provide counseling. I have a *real* problem with the "put them out of their misery" argument because you simply aren't qualified to make the judgment that such an existence must be unendurable. If even one ex-husk chooses to live, you've erred grievously.

Instead of wasting time trying to provide them with therapy, they would be well suited to operate heavy machinery for mining on hazardous worlds. Husks = cheap affordable labor. Hard labor sure beats the heck out of ravaging people by the hundreds. 

[AlanC9]

jtav wrote...

Then you provide counseling. I have a *real* problem with the "put them out of their misery" argument because you simply aren't qualified to make the judgment that such an existence must be unendurable. If even one ex-husk chooses to live, you've erred grievously.

And if they think their own lives aren't worth living, there are plenty of guns around.

[AlanC9]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
And whatever the word I use, lets put it this way: I think that after Synthesis, all life that is ever to exist afterward in the Milky Way will be Reaperized. Does that work better?

Depends on what "Reaperized" means.  Is it bad? If so, why is it bad?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Actually, I think that organics introducing tech to their own bodies is different than anything the Reapers do. Much different. None of your examples are of Reaper tech. That's a lot different than Reaper tech.

I don't remember Reaper-tech ever being brought up in the context of the ending.

Well, let's leave it as it is. Can you prove that it's not? I can't prove that it is, but I can't prove that it isn't either. So I choose to believe that it is.

And it's not ridiculous. Tell me where I'm wrong, objectively, with my interpretation of what Synthesis is.

It actually starts with knowing what, exactly, a Reaper is.

As a Reaper, there are these conditions to your life: (1) an AI has created you; (2) that AI is in control of you, until further notice; (3) your mind/persona is the amalgamation (sp?) of billions of inviduals uploaded into your body.

Husks are just glorified combat-drones. Victim is dead and gone, it's nothing but a given Reaper's Tyco RC.

In all, nothing here sounds like what we're told about Sync, unless you happen to know something we don't.

Well, we aren't told much about synthesis. We are told a lot about the Reapers. We know the Reapers like to... mess with people's minds. 

That's why I think it looks so good. I don't believe that any of it is good for one second. Maybe it would look good to a Reaper? 

Speculative of course. But that's all we have. So I'm sticking with it.

And whatever the word I use, lets put it this way: I think that after Synthesis, all life that is ever to exist afterward in the Milky Way will be Reaperized. Does that work better?

Without reason to believe the qualities/conditions of life bear similarities to the Reapers, I'd still reject that notion.

Then reject it. I never told you to accept it. I reject that anything good can ever come from Synthesis based on the knowledge that I have of the Reapers and the Catalyst and my read on it's explanation that doesn't add up  and has too many holes in it's story. 

Well, seeing as we don't get specifics and it's ill-defined, I'm going to be a stubborn jackass and say that the next cycle won, conventionally, due to ample preparation time and preparedness. It'll be a long, bloody, and costly fight, but in the end, they win.

Headcanon wins the day.

Um, sure.

[ruggly]

Arcian wrote...

ruggly wrote...

I still need to watch that. I've heard nothing but good things about it.

It's incredibly corny in an oddly good way.

Sold.

[Bourne Endeavor]

dreamgazer wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

People have largely covered the scientific and nonsensical issues, however there is another makes Synthesis utterly nightmarish. All those already reaperised forces, the Husks, Banshees, Marauders and etc. They are implied to have regained a form of sentience. Imagine you were essentially a zombie abomination that ravaged people by the hundreds and brutally tore them apart. Better even, remember the Asari with PTSD? How her captain became a banshee and tortured a fifteen year old girl and her family?

Suddenly, you remember everything. The anguish and pain you have inflicted, and monstrosity you have become. Even a hybrid mind is not capable of absorbing the severity of such a revelation and likely to be driven into madness all over again. Synthesis is torture beyond words to Reaperised "people."

Kinda reminds me of this movie, minus the "torture beyond words":

Ever try sitting through that movie? 

Nah, I've heard it's not half bad, at least as far as teen romance nonsense goes.

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Enhanced wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

People have largely covered the scientific and nonsensical issues, however there is another makes Synthesis utterly nightmarish. All those already reaperised forces, the Husks, Banshees, Marauders and etc. They are implied to have regained a form of sentience. Imagine you were essentially a zombie abomination that ravaged people by the hundreds and brutally tore them apart. Better even, remember the Asari with PTSD? How her captain became a banshee and tortured a fifteen year old girl and her family?

Suddenly, you remember everything. The anguish and pain you have inflicted, and monstrosity you have become. Even a hybrid mind is not capable of absorbing the severity of such a revelation and likely to be driven into madness all over again. Synthesis is torture beyond words to Reaperised "people."

The one husk stops and looks up into the sky.  That's not much of an implication that they all regain sentience and remember everything. But, if that does really happen, who are you to decide they shouldn't get to live?

I am the one who decides. And I decided they don't get to live. 

Pretty much sums it up. However, if you want a reason. Like I said, the likelihood of those abominations adjusting to even a semblance of what they use to be is nonexistent. The human mind cannot cope with that much trauma, nevermind having an entire army of extremely powerful monsters that mere seconds ago was ripping species a part and converting them into new reapers is not something I want to "take a chance on."

All it takes is one of them to start a revolution of Reaperhood and we're back to square one.

...

And now we know what Mass Effect 4 will be about.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 02 août 2013 - 11:39 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

ruggly wrote...

Arcian wrote...

ruggly wrote...

I still need to watch that. I've heard nothing but good things about it.

It's incredibly corny in an oddly good way.

Sold.

Before the movie started
https://encrypted-tb...yTC6oUujGlVUMbQ


After the movie
https://encrypted-tb...iA7qu6eGPdShGVz

[Bourne Endeavor]

jtav wrote...

Then you provide counseling. I have a *real* problem with the "put them out of their misery" argument because you simply aren't qualified to make the judgment that such an existence must be unendurable. If even one ex-husk chooses to live, you've erred grievously.

It's a zombie. If a group of Banshees cannot cope with what happened and go insane, well more so. That is a lot of dead people. And who knows the degree of influence they still have. Marauders and Banshees could control lesser reaperised forces. If they still can, this could get worse long before it gets better. The Asari feared one Ardat-Yakshi not properly restricted would cause chaos. Morinth backs up their theory. How about thousands of Morinths ten times stronger?

Regardless, I am indeed qualified. The Catalyst, in all his supposed wisdom, has deemed me so. The narrative practically anoints Shepard as space-Jesus. Therefore, yes, we have the qualifications and I am using them to vaporize the mechanicals zombies.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 02 août 2013 - 11:51 .

[Iakus]

Arcian wrote...

ruggly wrote...

I still need to watch that. I've heard nothing but good things about it.

It's incredibly corny in an oddly good way.

Nice watch

[dreamgazer]

iakus wrote...

Arcian wrote...

ruggly wrote...

I still need to watch that. I've heard nothing but good things about it.

It's incredibly corny in an oddly good way.

Nice watch

(thumbs up)

And I completely agree with Arcian's assessment.  Once you give the premise a bit of slack, it's a lot of fun. 

[Bionuts]

StreetMagic wrote...

I had a funny thought (funny to me at least).. this might be the one issue where Creationists and Evolution supporters could team up against a common enemy. Either way, their paradigm would be under threat. One thinks a Creator god/goddess/pantheon has sole rights at dictating the course of nature. On the other isn't an ideology so much as a staunch position that nature should take it's own course. To have any kind of outside meddler trying trump either one would lead to a lot of conflict.

That is, if I take it at face value and believe anything like that is possible. It's all bullsh!t, of course.

Actually, Christianity reminds me of the reapers, but worse.

God creates a land where anyone that opposes him endures extreme torture. Fire, lava, mutilation, etc., and for all eternity is the punishment of those who "oppose" him.

However, if you accept him in your life, he gets rid of your spirit, soul, and replaces them. In the end of days your body will be replaced, as well.

____

I will partly concede. Synthesis would be better if details were given as to what it actually does, and what it improves (and to what degree). Saren said, "the strengths of both, weakness of neither", but it would nice if we had an idea of what that means.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Well, let's leave it as it is. Can you prove that it's not? I can't prove that it is, but I can't prove that it isn't either. So I choose to believe that it is.

You're the one making the claim, not I; burden-of-proof is on you.

Not that I really care whether it incorporates Reaper-tech or not -- ME3 shows people actively using R.T. to give themselves advantages in the war -- but going strictly off of what we're told, the process is from [Crucible + Shepard.]

I have my own theory on this, but in discussion I stick strictly to the information we're given in the game or others will dimiss it as "headcanon" (and rightly so, I'd have to admit). Likewise, I dimiss the notion of R.T. in Sync 'til proven otherwise.

Ditto that the next two parts of your post (I think we are deadlocked).

[CrutchCricket]

Fandango9641 wrote...
Right, and what do you think Ieldra was referring to when she said:

Also, people do not reject Synthesis because they cannot believe in the problem. They choose not to believe the problem.

???

Please be so kind as to enlighten us all as to what the 'problem' is if it's not the false assumption that organics and synthetics cannot coexist? 

Thanks in advance.

Go ahead and read that post again some more.

I think you'll find that if you stop taking offense to everything the intent will become quite clear. And that intent isn't to assert any problem at all, but merely to point out that most people don't reject the "problem" because of rational arguments but because of bias and a predisposition to be hostile to the enemy (as it is the enemy that presents you with it).

You're welcome, in retrospect.

[AmstradHero]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...
And now we know what Mass Effect 4 will be about.

Yes, using an existing franchise to make lots of money.

[Reorte]

There are still people who not only don't have a problem with forcing something incredibly invasive on every single living thing in the entire galaxy but actually think it's a great thing to do and would do it without a moment's hesitation? That is sickening. It's the most disgusting idea I've ever heard, far worse than the most hideous thing that's ever been done on Earth in reality (the worst crimes have only affected a small proportion of life on one planet). How dare you defend changing peoples' bodies "for the greater good" and, worse still, changing their minds (if Synthesis is supposed to achieve what it claims). There is no pit in hell deep enough for the proponents of such atrocity. Thank god it's only a game.