292 réponses à ce sujet

[MassivelyEffective0730]

And here comes the part where Cerberus comes in. I do believe humanity was being unfairly treated by the Council and the galaxy at large, and the majority of the alliance was too thickheaded to really see it.

[HellbirdIV]

The truth is that humanity thought it was being treated unfairly because they're so self-absorbed and racist they think they deserve to have **** given to them freely. That's why they picked a fight with the batarians, that's why they nearly ****ed themselves by conducting illegal AI experiments, and that's why they cheat, lie, steal and murder to get what they want.

Seriously, **** humans in this setting.

[DeinonSlayer]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

And here comes the part where Cerberus comes in. I do believe humanity was being unfairly treated by the Council and the galaxy at large, and the majority of the alliance was too thickheaded to really see it.

Agreed, and not just humanity. Post-Destroy, I'd say the entire Council system needs to be torn down and rebuilt from the ground up.

As far as Cerberus goes, such an organization was needed to work on behalf of humanity - that said, Cerberus did a... less than satisfactory job.

[KaiserShep]

I doubt the other races are any better.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

And here comes the part where Cerberus comes in. I do believe humanity was being unfairly treated by the Council and the galaxy at large, and the majority of the alliance was too thickheaded to really see it.

Agreed, and not just humanity. Post-Destroy, I'd say the entire Council system needs to be torn down and rebuilt from the ground up.

As far as Cerberus goes, such an organization was needed to work on behalf of humanity - that said, Cerberus did a... less than satisfactory job.

I concur, though I'm not necessarily opposed to such an organization that does these sorts of things, though when Shepard and Miranda rebuild it, it's going to focus more on maintaining the balance of galactic power and working towards a more progressively constructive, liberal community. Sort of like the Galactic Republic from Star Wars.

As for Cerberus' actual job... I think we'll disagree to an extent. I think their purpose became more and more clouded as TIM failed to properly keep the course for his employee's. He didn't approach them with the right philophy or oversight. Eventually, his quest for absolute results first are what proved to be his undoing. Such a shame. He would have been my Shepard's best ally against the Reapers.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

HellbirdIV wrote...

The truth is that humanity thought it was being treated unfairly because they're so self-absorbed and racist they think they deserve to have **** given to them freely. That's why they picked a fight with the batarians, that's why they nearly ****ed themselves by conducting illegal AI experiments, and that's why they cheat, lie, steal and murder to get what they want.

Seriously, **** humans in this setting.

They were treated unfairly. We have our own share of self-absorbed and racist people, yes, but in a matter of pragmatism, we are growing at an exponential rate. We have proven ourselves very capable and very adaptable; Why should we have to worry about other races holding us back? We aren't trying to interfere with their growth, yet they seem to think that we're going to destroy their order. No I think we're just challenging the hegemony of the Council, and why not? We're not trying to stir the pot, we want to grow. Why shouldn't we grow and expand? 

By the way, that's a total case of the pot calling the kettle black by the way. 

Beats the Asari who withheld vital intelligence and military support until their own worlds were threatened.

[HellbirdIV]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

They were treated unfairly. We have our own share of self-absorbed and racist people, yes, but in a matter of pragmatism, we are growing at an exponential rate. We have proven ourselves very capable and very adaptable; Why should we have to worry about other races holding us back? We aren't trying to interfere with their growth, yet they seem to think that we're going to destroy their order. No I think we're just challenging the hegemony of the Council, and why not? We're not trying to stir the pot, we want to grow. Why shouldn't we grow and expand?

This is why.

Those who do not remember history are destined to repeat it.

[DeinonSlayer]

Uh huh. And how is the Alliance rush to colonize uninhabited worlds and secure industrial resources in any way comparable?

I'd say the Turians are more guilty of what you're describing than anyone. I haven't seen humanity claiming any "client races" or starting (or threatening) any territorial wars.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 04 août 2013 - 09:22 .

[kathic]

One point that people tend to forget in the ME universe is the timescale. The amount of time between the First Contact War and ME1 is very small. It is somewhat unreasonable to expect massive ideological change and acceptance of aliens by humans in such a short period. It is also reasonable that the Council and other races would be terrified at how quickly humanity has become a dominant player in galactic politics. Most races take generations to even get a embassy on the citadel. Humanity is already on the Council.

[HellbirdIV]

DeinonSlayer, if you're rooted in your belief that the Council just wanted to mess with humans while the Alliance looked on with confused puppy-dog eyes, I'm not going to waste my time with you. ;3

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 04 août 2013 - 09:27 .

[DeinonSlayer]

HellbirdIV wrote...

DeinonSlayer, if you're rooted in your belief that the Council just wanted to mess with humans while the Alliance looked on with confused puppy-dog eyes, I'm not going to waste my time with you. ;3

*smirks*

Honestly, though, I wouldn't put it past them. This is the same organization that hunted one species to extinction, sterilized another and planted a world-ending bomb on their planet, condemned another to slowly die in space after they got burned for trying to follow the Council's laws, etc.

They're quick to challenge anything that threatens their own power. You're expected to play by their rules, limit yourself to what they feel safe with (see Farixen), but the second you come calling on them, they will cut you loose. Don't let the chrome and pretty words fool you; the Council is absolutely ruthless. The very existence of the Office of Special Tactics and Reconnaissance is proof of that.

Oh, how I longed for that renegade interrupt... "The cruel and unfortunate truth, Councilor, is that while the Reapers focus on Thessia, we can recover and regroup."

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 04 août 2013 - 09:39 .

[HellbirdIV]

The issue isn't with the Council, though. The issue is with human propensity towards violent, unchecked imperialism. The turians are a far more stable element despite their militaristic bent, because of their drilled-in sense of humility and responsibility - the "Turian Honor", as it's called - and even they are actually restricted by the Treaty of Farixen to limit the damage done in the event of all-out war.

The Council doesn't pick on humanity - it's three, later four species trying to control what is implied to be hundreds of different species and cultures across Citadel space. The same can be seen in the cases of the batarians and the quarians and even the yahg - unstable elements are contained for the good of the galaxy.

It's just that humans - and batarians, for that matter, being the most like humans - seem to think they're destined for greatness and that they're being 'held back'. It's a common delusion, after all - the idea that there's always someone else to blame for your problems.

[Steelcan]

The Council is holding humanity back and its clear to everyone. They are scared of humanity and they act accordingly.

And evidence for humanity's unchecked Imperialism? What already inhabited worlds are we conquering and enslaving? Is the Alliance now an Empire?

[Demonique]

 Geth the **** out of this thread

[Sir DeLoria]

HellbirdIV wrote..

Necanor wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

Heheh. "The geth deployed flesh eating bacteria against the quarians, and used the melted remains as lubricant, which is why when you shoot a geth there's a spurt of white fluid. It is liquid quarian."

Lol, that makes no sense whatsoever.

I know. It'd be kind of funny though.

No. Quite the exact opposite in fact.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

HellbirdIV wrote...

The issue isn't with the Council, though. The issue is with human propensity towards violent, unchecked imperialism. The turians are a far more stable element despite their militaristic bent, because of their drilled-in sense of humility and responsibility - the "Turian Honor", as it's called - and even they are actually restricted by the Treaty of Farixen to limit the damage done in the event of all-out war.

Uh huh. So that explains their more colonial attitude towards the galaxy at large. It's in the codex. The Turians are a very imperialistic race - much more so than humanity. We don't conquer (or dominate them economically) worlds and make the inhabitants client races. 

I seem to recall that humanity is also bound to the Treaty of Farixen. Honestly, it just seems that you're out to hate on humans.

The Council doesn't pick on humanity - it's three, later four species trying to control what is implied to be hundreds of different species and cultures across Citadel space. The same can be seen in the cases of the batarians and the quarians and even the yahg - unstable elements are contained for the good of the galaxy.

Nobody is containing the Batarians. Nobody. I don't know where you're getting that lame idea, but it's false. And unstable elements are contained? What about the Terminus systems? What about the Nemean Abyss? It seems that they were just swept off the map as far as the Council is concerned. Humanity is a lot different than many of these other races. We have raw potential and capability that most other races have never seen before. We're bound and determined to step up to the plate. And that's what we're going to do. You seem to like the idea of having the current system being the top? Wouldn't those races have had to do the exact same underhanded methods that you prescribe of humanity? I seem to recall that the Council is often described as a powers club where all the powers are pulled together for mutual support. They don't necessarily trust each other, but they all want to be in charge, so they make a very realist pact to keep the power between them. That's how I see it. I'm actually in favor of disseminating the power and bringing everybody under one banner, something I think the Council is actively trying to prevent.

It's just that humans - and batarians, for that matter, being the most like humans - seem to think they're destined for greatness and that they're being 'held back'. It's a common delusion, after all - the idea that there's always someone else to blame for your problems.

How in the hell did you link the idea of manifest destiny to blaming others for problems. I was actually going to make an argument for humanity here, but now I'm just going to say that this... non-point of yours smashes your argument to pieces. 

[thehomeworld]

Geth for being morons really they didn't need the world, were studying organics and their creators for 300 years so by now they know organics like planets they also know a very basic thing the Qurians love their's and want it back, could've moved anywhere in the 300 year gap and no one would've known crap about it. There are so many many things the geth could've done to not spite or egg on the Qurians and chose none of it then they sided with the reapers when the stupid bug bit them and do nothing but a propaganda fest. BW wanted to create strife where there wasn't much to begin with they had to contrive one by making the geth hold onto Rannoch out of guilt which is very horrid writing.

[Barquiel]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

And here comes the part where Cerberus comes in. I do believe humanity was being unfairly treated by the Council and the galaxy at large, and the majority of the alliance was too thickheaded to really see it.

How were we treated unfairly? For instance, the Council stepped in to stop the Turians from wrecking Earth (not very unfair, I think).

Nobody forced Humanity (or any other race) to open an embassy on the citadel, and every species can close its embassy at any time. The citadel civilizations have only explored about 1% of the galaxy, and Council Space makes up less than 1% of the entire Milky Way Galaxy. There are more than enough planets to colonize outside of
Council Space. You don't even need an embassy to trade with the council races (we know the economic trade between Batarians and Asari is significant).The council saved Humanity, and then we decided to join them.

If anything, the council is far too nice imo. For example the genophage: The salarians developed the genophage as a deterrent, and when the time came to use it, they intended to only use it on a limited scale to try and force a settlement. The Turians (they joined the council 100 years after the krogan rebellions) deployed it on a massive scale. Or the rachni wars...the council tried to negotiate with the rachni. The krogan "bombarded Suen's cities and detonated powerful bombs in the rachni's underground nests, obliterating them and creating massive sinkholes on the planet's surface"

Modifié par Barquiel, 05 août 2013 - 01:02 .

[Steelcan]

Lets see, how has the Council left humanity to dry?

Batarian attacks
Terminus systems uniting to drive them human colonies out
Not doing anything about Saren and the geth
Collector abductions ignored

and my personal favorite, "The cruel and unfortunate truth" speech from Tevos.

Humanity should leave the Council IMO.

[in it for the lolz]

Steelcan wrote...

Lets see, how has the Council left humanity to dry?

Batarian attacks
Terminus systems uniting to drive them human colonies out
Not doing anything about Saren and the geth
Collector abductions ignored

and my personal favorite, "The cruel and unfortunate truth" speech from Tevos.

Humanity should leave the Council IMO.

^This.

Never trust a Xenos!

[in it for the lolz]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Humanity should leave the Council IMO.

We'll make our own Council, with blackjack and hookers!

Human hookers?

[justafan]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Humanity should leave the Council IMO.

We'll make our own Council, with blackjack and hookers!

Sign me up!  Except fot the part about the hookers, this new council should be free of Asari.

[Barquiel]

In the early 2160s, humans began to colonize the Skyllian Verge, a region the batarians were already actively settling. The batarians asked the Citadel Council to intervene and declare the Verge an area of "batarian interest". When the Council refused, the batarians closed their Citadel embassy and severed diplomatic and economic relations, becoming an inward-looking rogue state.
If anything, the Batarians were treated unfairly (but the Batarians were not exactly good neighbors...I think they can only blame themselves -> Mannovai, Esan, Enael).

The collector attacks weren't Council or Alliance space (there is still a news report that the STG is investigating the colony attacks if you saved the council in ME1). We also know that the council didn't intervene when the Batatians attacked salarian and asari colonies in the terminus systems (as I have said..."too nice").

"The cruel and unfortunate truth" is that Tevos was right. Had the asari, salarian and turian fleets immediately launched a counter-offensive to retake Earth...the attack would have concluded with a disastrous defeat and Thessia/Palavan/Sur'Kesh would have fallen earlier.

Eden Prime went down far too fast for them to do anything. What do you expect? A full-blown invasion of the Perseus Veil because of one human colony? They sent a spectre and at least one salarian team to investigate the problem.

Humanity's rise has been supported by the Council every step of the way,  that's the simple truth about it.

Modifié par Barquiel, 05 août 2013 - 01:38 .