292 réponses à ce sujet

[Sovereign330]

They both did stupid things

[Han Shot First]

The Quarians.

Intentional or not, they created a 'race' of A.I. laborers. Then when it became clear that their synthetic work force had become sapient, they panicked and tried to annihilate them. The Quarians  set the stage for the war by creating an A.I., and were the war's aggressors in being the first to open fire. The war itself was also entirely without justification, as the Geth had shown no hostile intent, and a combination of Quarian hubris and paranoia was entirely to blame for the conflict.

As for the Geth, they were merely acting in self-defense, just as any organic faction would have been done. The Quarians were the villains in the Morning War and the cause of their own ruin. The reaped what they had sown.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 04 août 2013 - 03:39 .

[Alien Number Six]

I wonder where Auld Wolf is. This discussion always seems to bring him out his den.

[Anubis722]

Alien Number Six wrote...

I wonder where Auld Wolf is. This discussion always seems to bring him out his den.

I heard he quit BSN. 

Modifié par AnubisEgyptainLordofDeath, 04 août 2013 - 07:06 .

[Anubis722]

Both

Quarian government and military were wrong in attacking the Geth,even thou it was out of fear,panicked,and also following the Council's A.I ban law(which a lot of people seem to ignore, since this played a key role in how the Morning War started) and Geth was wrong for genocide 99% of Quarians. There was noting self-defense or justify about that sh*t period,bottom line is 99% Quarian population was not a threat to the Geth(I seriously doubt every Quarian man,woman,and child on Rannoch was a threat to the Geth or try to killed them) and did not need to go that far. In my honest opinion the Rannoch arch in ME3 was a f**king joke and emotional manipulation at its finest,Rannoch arch is almost as bad as the ending IMO.Instead of showing equal fair balance of both sides, where you get Quarians and Geth best and worst sides which i had hope for.instead i Geth whitewashing(conventionality leaving out Geth genocide 99% of Quarians,300 years of extreme isolationism which Geth killed anyone who tired to make peace with them,True Geth letting the heretics join Sovereign and Saren knowing fully damn well the negative consequence and repercussion of this,then never disavowing them as representative of their race yet the Geth wonder why they have no allies,or Adias mining colony massacre),beaten over the head with the victim bat,peace is achieve by pinocchio code(much as i disliked the Geth i through they were a interesting and truly only alien race in ME),character assassination on both fronts(specially Legion who became a hypocrite and goes out like Poochie the dog and Quarians pretty much got demonized).I hope BW don't pull this sh*t in DA:I with the Templar's and Mages.

[HellbirdIV]

I blame the quarians more than the geth because the geth were mentally infantile at the time, and did not have any way to understand the consequences of their actions beyond "We must survive".

The quarians killed other quarians in order to get at the geth, with no such excuse.

[garrus and ashley squad]

AnubisEgyptainLordofDeath wrote...

Both

Quarian government and military were wrong in attacking the Geth,even thou it was out of fear,panicked,and also following the Council's A.I ban law(which a lot of people seem to ignore, since this played a key role in how the Morning War started) and Geth was wrong for genocide 99% of Quarians. There was noting self-defense or justify about that sh*t period,bottom line is 99% Quarian population was not a threat to the Geth(I seriously doubt every Quarian man,woman,and child on Rannoch was a threat to the Geth or try to killed them) and did not need to go that far. In my honest opinion the Rannoch arch in ME3 was a f**king joke and emotional manipulation at its finest,Rannoch arch is almost as bad as the ending IMO.Instead of showing equal fair balance of both sides, where you get Quarians and Geth best and worst sides which i had hope for.instead i Geth whitewashing(conventionality leaving out Geth genocide 99% of Quarians,300 years of extreme isolationism which Geth killed anyone who tired to make peace with them,True Geth letting the heretics join Sovereign and Saren knowing fully damn well the negative consequence and repercussion of this,then never disavowing them as representative of their race yet the Geth wonder why they have no allies,or Adias mining colony massacre),beaten over the head with the victim bat,peace is achieve by pinocchio code(much as i disliked the Geth i through they were a interesting and truly only alien race in ME),character assassination on both fronts(specially Legion who became a hypocrite and goes out like Poochie the dog and Quarians pretty much got demonized).I hope BW don't pull this sh*t in DA:I with the Templar's and Mages.

I do agree with some of this. There is blame on both sides of the conflict no doubt about that.
I do agree that 99% genocide is extreme and was the wrong way to go about it. I still think the geth showed more mercy than the quarians would have. The quarians would of wiped the Geth out and there would of been no second guessing it. 

You kind of had to give the geth a little bit more of an edge in me3. There was a whole game dedicated to fighting them and in me2 there was little positivity about them. Without me3 I don't think a lot of people even question erasing the geth. They were mostly viewed in a negative light up until this game. If anything to make it more equal. They should of played it fair in the 1st mass effect. That way we could of judged them fairly in me3, and had a more thought out choice at this point. I like the Rannoch scene, but can see a little bit of it being rushed, as in throwing the geth in such a positive light. They really didn't have that much of a choice.

I still don't blame them for doing nothing about the heratic problem. The only history they have on organics is a negative one, and I can understand not wanting to help them after what has happpened. Why waist troops on something that you have no reason to fight for. I don't think the geth wanted allies at this point and just wanted to remain isolated. Which I see no problem in.

[DeinonSlayer]

Han Shot First wrote...

The Quarians.

Intentional or not, they created a 'race' of A.I. laborers. Then when it became clear that their synthetic work force had become sapient, they panicked and tried to annihilate them. The Quarians  set the stage for the war by creating an A.I., and were the war's aggressors in being the first to open fire. The war itself was also entirely without justification, as the Geth had shown no hostile intent, and a combination of Quarian hubris and paranoia was entirely to blame for the conflict.

As for the Geth, they were merely acting in self-defense, just as any organic faction would have been done. The Quarians were the villains in the Morning War and the cause of their own ruin. The reaped what they had sown.

I wonder if you'd be that callous, were it your own family, your own species exterminated in "self-defense" by an entity which you, personally, never wronged (because someone else did elsewhere).

Too many people seem to treat "the Quarians" as a monolithic whole, and have either convinced themselves against reason that 99% of the species took up arms against the Geth (believing this solely to justify the act of killing them), or they simply don't give a damn about the innocents wiped out in the conflict. It's more than a little disturbing.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 04 août 2013 - 07:49 .

[HellbirdIV]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

I wonder if you'd be that callous, were it your own family, your own species exterminated in "self-defense" by an entity which you, personally, never wronged (because someone else did elsewhere).

Beep. Wrong. The geth were used for labour across the entire quarian state. All quarians were guilty in owning geth.

When they became sapient they became a slave species, thus all quarians were guilty of owning slaves.

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Too many people seem to treat "the Quarians" as a monolithic whole, and have either convinced themselves against reason that 99% of the species took up arms against the Geth

Beep. Wrong again. Some quarians refused to fight against the geth - and the other quarians killed them for it.

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 04 août 2013 - 09:51 .

[KaiserShep]

I wouldn't use the word guilt when it comes to owning geth, because the geth were simply VI's in mobile platforms. Liara isn't guilty of owning Glyph, and we are not guilty of owning robots that are used to build cars.

[HellbirdIV]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

Seriosuly Geth supporters, self defence is when you shoot a mugger attacking you in an alleyway, it is not shooting the guy, then going to his house and shooting his entire family, and then shooting his dog for good measure.

Seriously Quarian fanboys, there is still no evidence - anywhere - that the geth ever killed quarian civilians.
That doesn't seem to stop you from inventing atrocities supposedly committed by the geth.

Finn the Jakey wrote...

And for that matter, many Quarians were
probably unaware of the Geth gaining sentience, you do know not all of
them were government scientists? So most probably heard the general
recall order and assumed they were malfunctuioning.

Nope. Networked intelligence.

Finn the Jakey wrote...

Yeah sorry, but one Quarian being killed (by accident may I add) does not = huge civil war which has never been mentioned before.

It's not an accident. The quarian military deliberately set an explosive charge to blow up the building.

Actual evidence trumps wild speculation and claims of "logic" or "sense". And if Legion's testimony is not to be believed, then neither is Tali's.

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 04 août 2013 - 11:48 .

[KaiserShep]

The archive in the geth consensus gave some idea that at least a few Quarians were aware of the geth as having some kind of personality, like the one that was inside the safe house who died when the soldiers bombed it. Concealing the geth's spontaneous rise to sentience would not be possible, unless every Quarian that had geth simply never interacted with them.

[Steelcan]

Hellbird drinks the paragon juice.

Do you really think all quarians everywhere owned the geth? They were likely a luxury item akin to slaves in older times. Besides that they would have been owned by the government since they were also tools of war as well as labor.

[Steelcan]

There is no evidence that the geth ever killed civilians?

Hello Auld Wulf, when did you return?

The fact that 99% of the entire quarian population across numerous planets were simultaneously wiped out in less than a year. And that Legion implies the use of chemical weapons. or that the Geth VI flat out states his desire to exterminate the quarians.

[KaiserShep]

When did Legion imply the use of chemical weapons? I don't remember Legion mentioning such a thing, and the wiki entry doesn't have any details.

[justafan]

KaiserShep wrote...

When did Legion imply the use of chemical weapons? I don't remember Legion mentioning such a thing, and the wiki entry doesn't have any details.

Between the Geth still cleaning up toxins from the war (Legion Conversation in ME2), the 99+% casualty rate for Quarians (books and games), and the fact the Quarians did not use WMDs (Tali conversation in ME1), it is heavily implied that the Geth used either chemical, biological or nuclear weapons against the Quarians on such a large scale that the fallout has not cleared in nearly 300 years.

[KaiserShep]

Conventional weapons used on a large enough scale would also heavily pollute the environment, but let's not forget that on the scale of the attack, there's also the targets themselves that can cause massive damage to the environment when destroyed, like power plants, and anything else that uses some kind of fuel, like vehicles, aircraft/spacecraft, etc.. Nuclear fallout would take much longer than a couple centuries to clear up, and biological weapons would not really leave much behind, since even an advanced weaponized pathogen would just die out once there's no more host victims to infect. Of course that still leaves chemical, and one could go either way on that, but without any specifics, I guess that one's up in the air (no pun intended).

Modifié par KaiserShep, 04 août 2013 - 03:24 .

[AlexMBrennan]

the 99+% casualty rate for Quarians

Then quarians are shown to be literally too dumb to live at every turn - they attacked the geth despite a council orders not to in the middle of a reaper invasion, are too incompetent to take back a single ship and (if you side with the geth) will literally fight to the death: The captains want to retreat, but Gerrel orders them to keep shooting anyway - clearly the quarians are blinded by hate that they'd rather see their species wiped out in order to shoot a couple more geth.

So the most likely explanation of the 99% casualty rate is that the quarians kept fighting a hopeless battle until 99% of them were dead.

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 04 août 2013 - 03:30 .

[Soldier096]

garrus and ashley squad wrote...



I do agree with some of this. There is blame on both sides of the conflict no doubt about that.
I do agree that 99% genocide is extreme and was the wrong way to go about it. I still think the geth showed more mercy than the quarians would have. The quarians would of wiped the Geth out and there would of been no second guessing it. 

 
The Geth letting the Quarians go wasn't exactly mercy on thie part. Accroding to Legion they had insufficient data to forsee the consequences of destroying an entire race. They didn't let the Quarians go out of the kindness of their heart. 

You kind of had to give the geth a little bit more of an edge in me3. There was a whole game dedicated to fighting them and in me2 there was little positivity about them. Without me3 I don't think a lot of people even question erasing the geth. They were mostly viewed in a negative light up until this game. If anything to make it more equal. They should of played it fair in the 1st mass effect. That way we could of judged them fairly in me3, and had a more thought out choice at this point. I like the Rannoch scene, but can see a little bit of it being rushed, as in throwing the geth in such a positive light. They really didn't have that much of a choice.

They could have put more effort into bringing up the good and the bad of both sides but instead they just went with the Quarians bad Geth good. Mass Effect 3 did its best to show the geth in a positive manner. They even dedicated an entire mission showing Geth propoganda without anything to support the Quarians. The diffreence between what they did wiht the Geth and what they did with the Quarians is that Shepard can openly disagree with their actions time and time again. Unlike Me3 when the Shepard is forced to accept the Geth propoganda through autodialogue. 

I still don't blame them for doing nothing about the heratic problem. The only history they have on organics is a negative one, and I can understand not wanting to help them after what has happpened. Why waist troops on something that you have no reason to fight for. I don't think the geth wanted allies at this point and just wanted to remain isolated. Which I see no problem in.

Atleast trying to warn the galaxy of an iminient Heretic threat would somewhat improve their relatrionship with organics. Letting the Heretics be the everyone's first form of contact with their race is only going to make organics relations worst. Even by Mass Effect 3 people were skeptical about the Geth helping becasue of what the Heretics did. They say that they only want to understand organics yet they let their homocidal counterpart run around without warning. 

Modifié par Soldier096, 04 août 2013 - 03:44 .

[HellbirdIV]

Yeah, there's been no mention of biological, chemical or nuclear weapons being used by either side. As I keep stressing, evidence is what matters, not how you interpet vague statements.

Steelcan wrote...

Do you really think all quarians everywhere owned the geth? They were likely a luxury item akin to slaves in older times.

Geth were farming and domestic units, in a society at the technological level of interstellar spaceflight. I think "luxury items" would be readily available to every household just like, for example, a microwave oven is available to every western household today.

There is no evidence to suggest owning a domestic geth unit would be uncommon, whereas the sheer number of geth platforms (outnumbering the quarians themselves!) indicates they were commonly distributed.

Finn the Jakey wrote...

-99.9% of the quarian population being killed during the Morning War (book)

99.9%? Surely that doesn't sound at all like a number exaggarated for emphasis, huh?

... Also, which book? I read Ascension (the one with the Migrant Fleet and Cerberus). It certainly didn't drop numbers or even information about the Morning War, it focused on the quarians' Migrant Fleet culture instead.

Finn the Jakey wrote...
-This description of Adas, a fairly harmless mining colony:

when the geth rebelled, the small quarian population on and around Adas was quickly overrun."

Slaves on a mining colony rising against their oppressors? Unheard of!

Finn the Jakey wrote...

-Non quarians being killed by the Geth during the war (Asari woman on Illium's daughter)

Yeah because the quarians would never fire on geth targets if there were non-quarians who might get caught in the crossfire and killed.

Oh wait.

Finn the Jakey wrote...

-The Morning War being called an '"wholesale slaughter" (terminal in ME3 I think?)

I've never seen or heard it described that way other than by Talimancers. Source?

Soldier096 wrote...

They could have put more effort into
bringing up the good and the bad of both sides but instead they just
went with the Quarians bad Geth good. Mass Effect 3 did its best to show
the geth in a positive manner. They even dedicated an entire mission
showing Geth propoganda without anything to support the Quarians.

Except the entirety of Mass Effect 1's geth storyline and every single thing Tali says in ME1 and most of ME2 presents the quarian side. It's not an unfair portrayal, it just presumes you played the previous games.

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 04 août 2013 - 03:33 .

[garrus and ashley squad]

Soldier096 wrote...

garrus and ashley squad wrote...



I do agree with some of this. There is blame on both sides of the conflict no doubt about that.
I do agree that 99% genocide is extreme and was the wrong way to go about it. I still think the geth showed more mercy than the quarians would have. The quarians would of wiped the Geth out and there would of been no second guessing it. 

 
The Geth letting the Quarians go wasn't exactly mercy on thie part. Accroding to Legion they had insufficient data to forsee the consequences of destroying an entire race. They didn't let the Quarians go out of the kindness of their heart. 

You kind of had to give the geth a little bit more of an edge in me3. There was a whole game dedicated to fighting them and in me2 there was little positivity about them. Without me3 I don't think a lot of people even question erasing the geth. They were mostly viewed in a negative light up until this game. If anything to make it more equal. They should of played it fair in the 1st mass effect. That way we could of judged them fairly in me3, and had a more thought out choice at this point. I like the Rannoch scene, but can see a little bit of it being rushed, as in throwing the geth in such a positive light. They really didn't have that much of a choice.

They could have put more effort into bringing up the good and the bad of both sides but instead they just went with the Quarians bad Geth good. Mass Effect 3 did its best to show the geth in a positive manner. They even dedicated an entire mission showing Geth propoganda without anything to support the Quarians. 

I still don't blame them for doing nothing about the heratic problem. The only history they have on organics is a negative one, and I can understand not wanting to help them after what has happpened. Why waist troops on something that you have no reason to fight for. I don't think the geth wanted allies at this point and just wanted to remain isolated. Which I see no problem in.

Atleast trying to warn the galaxy of an iminient Heretic threat would somewhat improve their relatrionship with organics. Letting the Heretics be the everyone's first form of contact with their race is only going to make organics relations worst. Even by Mass Effect 3 people were skeptical about the Geth helping becasue of what the Heretics did. They say that they only want to understand organics yet they let their homocidal counterpart run around without warning. 

1. Maybe not but it is still better than what the quarians would have gave them. If the position was reversed I think they wipe them out and there is no questioning or thought about it, and even if there is, their military would still be the ones to wipe them all out.

2. Yes they did, but like I said, if the geth were viewed in more of a postive light in the previous games you would of had the chance for an even playing field in me3. They decided to have quarians good and geth bad in me1 and most of me2. They finally gave the geth something in me3, which to me should have been done in the other games, but maybe they had their reasons.

3. It probably would have, but I still can't blame the whole geth for the actions of the heretics. This may have caused bad relations with them, but the geth have already had a bad relationship with organics. Most of the geth were mainly isolated and just wanted to be cut off, I can't blame them for not wanting to have any contact with organics. Eventually they did want to understand organics but the geth had to get a lot of things in order 1st before that. having their own planet and the being without the quarians took time to adjust to. 

Modifié par garrus and ashley squad, 04 août 2013 - 03:47 .

[DeinonSlayer]

From Mass Effect: Revelation (Karpyshyn, 2007), Chapter Eight:

Attempting to develop artificial intelligence was one of the few things specifically banned in the Citadel Conventions. Developing purely synthetic life, whether cloned or manufactured, was considered a crime against the entire galaxy.

Experts from nearly every species predicted that true artificial intelligence - such as a synthetic neural network with the ability to absorb and critically analyze knowledge - would grow exponentially the instant it learned to learn. It would teach itself; quickly surpassing the capabilities of its organic creators and growing beyond their control. Every single species in the galaxy relied on computers that were linked into the vast data network of the extranet for transport, trade, defense, and basic survival. If a rogue AI program was somehow able to access and influence those data networks, the results would be catastrophic.

Conventional theory held that the doomsday scenario wasn't merely possible, it was unavoidable. According to the Council, the emergence of an artificial intelligence was the single greatest threat to organic life in the galaxy. And there was evidence to support their position.

Three hundred years ago, long before humanity appeared on the galactic scene, the quarian species had created a race of synthetic servants to serve as an expandable and expendable labor source. The geth, as they were called, were not true AIs: their neural networks were developed in a way that was highly restrictive and self-limiting. Despite this precaution, the geth eventually turned on their quarian masters, validating all the dire warnings and predictions.

The quarians had neither the numbers nor the ability to stand against their former servants. In a short but savage war their entire society was wiped out. Only a few million survivors - less than one percent of their entire population - escaped the genocide, fleeing their home world in a massive fleet, refugees forced to live in exile.

In the aftermath of the war, the geth became a completely isolationist society. Cutting off all contact with the organic species of the galaxy, they expanded their territory into the unexplored reaches behind a vast nebulae cloud known as the Perseus Veil. Every attempt to open diplomatic channels with them failed: emissary vessels sent to open negotiations were attacked and destroyed the moment they entered geth space.

Fleets from every species in Citadel space massed on the borders of the Veil as the Council prepared for a massive geth invasion. But the expected attack never came. Gradually the fleets were scaled back, until now, several centuries after the quarians were driven out, only a few patrols remained to monitor the region for signs of geth aggression.

However, the lesson of the quarians had not been forgotten. They had lost everything to the synthetic creatures they created... and on top of this, the geth were still less advanced than a true AI.

[Soldier096]

garrus and ashley squad wrote...

1. Maybe not but it is still better than what the quarians would have gave them. If it is reversed I think they wipe them out and there is no questioning or thought about it, and even if there is their military would still be the ones to wipe them all out.

Geth VI gladly wipes out the Quarians if given the chance to do so. If the Geth had sufficient data they would have wiped out the Quarians without a second thought. 

2. Yes they did, but like I said if the geth were viewed in more of a postive light in the previous games you would of had the chance for an even playing field in me3. They decided to have quarians good and geth bad in me and most of me2. They finally gave the geth something in me3, which to me should have been done in the other games, but maybe they had their reasons.

The difference is that when discussing the topic in Me1 and Me2 Shepard and the player can openly agree or disagree with the Quarian's actions. Me3 Shepard and the player are forced to accept this Geth propoganda thorugh auto dialogue. 

3. It probably would have, but I still can't blame the whole geth for the actions of the heretics. 

Yes you can blame them. They all act as a whole. There is no individual that decides what the Geth do. They all make a consensus and then all of them act on it.