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[MassivelyEffective0730]

Necanor wrote...

garrus and ashley squad wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

garrus and ashley squad wrote...
If they did use chemical warfare I don't see why bioware would not just clearly state that. That would have a huge impact on a race, and is to a lesser extent like the genophage.

The answer: I don't believe for a second that chemical weapons were used. I believe the closest you might get is a few high-yield fission/fusion devices used by the Quarians as a resort agains the Geth, that would most likely have been abandoned after having a non-impact on the Consensus.

Do I need to quote Legion again?  The quarians did not deploy WMD's.

He never stated the geth did either.

He has a valid point though, despite Quarian population presumably being extremely low in the first place(only few hospitable places, culture, few populated areas), the Geth still had to kill a few million somehow in such a short time period.

That is a double standard argument.

Invalidated.

[garrus and ashley squad]

Necanor wrote...

garrus and ashley squad wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

garrus and ashley squad wrote...
If they did use chemical warfare I don't see why bioware would not just clearly state that. That would have a huge impact on a race, and is to a lesser extent like the genophage.

The answer: I don't believe for a second that chemical weapons were used. I believe the closest you might get is a few high-yield fission/fusion devices used by the Quarians as a resort agains the Geth, that would most likely have been abandoned after having a non-impact on the Consensus.

Do I need to quote Legion again?  The quarians did not deploy WMD's.

He never stated the geth did either.

He has a valid point though, despite Quarian population presumably being extremely low in the first place(only few hospitable places, culture, few populated areas), the Geth still had to kill a few million somehow in such a short time period.

They can realy information to each other very quickly, and they are all over the planet. It is possible that they could locate a lot of what was remaining.

[Steelcan]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Quite simply really. The Geth were pretty much everywhere on the planet, and networked with each other all at once. When the decision among the Consensus went out to fight back, they could very easily coordinate and organize at once. They would take the Quarians by surprise. 

It does make sense tactically, yes, but does it make sense for the Geth, who were in a much more reactive state and primitive mindset to premediate the use of WMD's against the Quarians? It doesn't fly with me.

They couldn't have networked all at once, they were already netwroked together.  Also they couldn't take the quarians by surprise since the quarians attacked first. 

And I'm not saying thatthey premeditated their use, but instead were in a position where the use of chemical weapons would cripple the quarians and have no ill effects on the geth.  Perhaps as a weapon of desperation even.

[Steelcan]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Did you actually read my post? Go back and read my post.

I did read your post I just don't acept your argument

[Steelcan]

garrus and ashley squad wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

garrus and ashley squad wrote...

If they did use chemical warfare I don't see why bioware would not just clearly state that. That would have a huge impact on a race, and is to a lesser extent like the genophage.

Why would they? They spent the last two games carefully avoiding any mention of the Quarian death toll in the Morning War after establishing it in the books and ME1 dialogue. ME3 committed no dialogue to that, or to the centuries of Geth isolationism and how it contributed to the current situation. They wanted to make a narrative sympathetic to the Geth, and the only way they could do that was by effectively sweeping the other side under the rug. I knew something was up my first time through ME3 when Xen threw out those softball arguments for going to war when stronger ones were made in the second game.

They had the perfect oppurtunity in the books to say chemical weapons were waged as well. There are clear chances to explain and say the geth did. Which leads me to believe they didn't.

They also never clarified if krogan give birth to live youngor through eggs, Okeer implies one, Eve another.  They never specified where the Crucible came from though leviathan would have been the perfect place to do so.  They don't clarify if the Reapers are many minds or just one.  They don't detail how cerberus became so powerful so quickly.

[DeinonSlayer]

garrus and ashley squad wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

garrus and ashley squad wrote...

If they did use chemical warfare I don't see why bioware would not just clearly state that. That would have a huge impact on a race, and is to a lesser extent like the genophage.

Why would they? They spent the last two games carefully avoiding any mention of the Quarian death toll in the Morning War after establishing it in the books and ME1 dialogue. ME3 committed no dialogue to that, or to the centuries of Geth isolationism and how it contributed to the current situation. They wanted to make a narrative sympathetic to the Geth, and the only way they could do that was by effectively sweeping the other side under the rug. I knew something was up my first time through ME3 when Xen threw out those softball arguments for going to war when stronger ones were made in the second game.

They had the perfect oppurtunity in the books to say chemical weapons were waged as well. There are clear chances to explain and say the geth did. Which leads me to believe they didn't.

The one time a writer came on here and addressed the Morning War, if I recall, they said they left it deliberately vague to encourage speculation like this. Use of chemical weapons is inferred; I never called it proof, but I have yet to see a more reasonable explanation.

Hellbird, if you're rooted in your belief that the Quarians exterminated themselves while the Geth looked on with confused puppy-dog eyes, I'm not going to waste my time with you.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Steelcan wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Quite simply really. The Geth were pretty much everywhere on the planet, and networked with each other all at once. When the decision among the Consensus went out to fight back, they could very easily coordinate and organize at once. They would take the Quarians by surprise. 

It does make sense tactically, yes, but does it make sense for the Geth, who were in a much more reactive state and primitive mindset to premediate the use of WMD's against the Quarians? It doesn't fly with me.

They couldn't have networked all at once, they were already netwroked together.  Also they couldn't take the quarians by surprise since the quarians attacked first. 

Yes, but the Quarians were taken by surprise because they didn't expect the Geth to stand up and take up arms against them. And you just proved my point. When they're already networked together, they're more than capable of unilaterally coordinating, even in such a bare and primitive state.

And I'm not saying thatthey premeditated their use, but instead were in a position where the use of chemical weapons would cripple the quarians and have no ill effects on the geth.  Perhaps as a weapon of desperation even.

But that doesn't make sense either since it's clearly shown that once the Geth took up arms against the Quarians, things went south rather quickly. No, I think conventional fighting, however brief, was what was responsible for this kind of damage.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Steelcan wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Did you actually read my post? Go back and read my post.

I did read your post I just don't acept your argument

Then don't accept it. But provide a counter-argument to it then. 

Did you read my brief edit where I said the event of the usage of nuclear weapons wasn't anymore plausible than the use of chemical weapons?

[garrus and ashley squad]

Steelcan wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Quite simply really. The Geth were pretty much everywhere on the planet, and networked with each other all at once. When the decision among the Consensus went out to fight back, they could very easily coordinate and organize at once. They would take the Quarians by surprise. 

It does make sense tactically, yes, but does it make sense for the Geth, who were in a much more reactive state and primitive mindset to premediate the use of WMD's against the Quarians? It doesn't fly with me.

They couldn't have networked all at once, they were already netwroked together.  Also they couldn't take the quarians by surprise since the quarians attacked first. 

And I'm not saying thatthey premeditated their use, but instead were in a position where the use of chemical weapons would cripple the quarians and have no ill effects on the geth.  Perhaps as a weapon of desperation even.

If true, That's a lot to interpert there. Would the quarians have been drawn to a chemical plant, and the geth shot it. That would be an act of either desperation, or just intelligence.

There is a scene where shepard goes to the hospital on the krogan homeworld and meets up with this clan leader. (forget the name) He shoots a barrel which causes a krogan to catch fire. There's a difference between using the enviornemt and actually going to chemical weapons. That was just a scenario as that could be interpreted in many ways.

[Steelcan]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

But that doesn't make sense either since it's clearly shown that once the Geth took up arms against the Quarians, things went south rather quickly. No, I think conventional fighting, however brief, was what was responsible for this kind of damage.

So deploying chemical weapons would not have things go south for the quarians rather quickly?

Conventional warfare to me does not seem capable of explaining how such massive numbers of people, billions, could be killed in less than a year.

[HellbirdIV]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Hellbird, if you're rooted in your belief that the Quarians exterminated themselves while the Geth looked on with confused puppy-dog eyes, I'm not going to waste my time with you.

And that's why you fail. You presume I am as fervent in my support of the geth as you are in your blind love for the quarians.

The truth is that I only argue based on logic and facts, without emotional investment, to reach these conclusions. You're clearly ignoring what I say when it doesn't accomodate your belief that anyone who disagrees with you is willfully ignorant or somehow stupid - I have already stated that I think the geth killed quarian civilians.

Take note of the highlighted part. I think. I do not know. The two are not interchangeable.

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 04 août 2013 - 04:49 .

[Steelcan]

garrus and ashley squad wrote...

If true, That's a lot to interpert there. Would the quarians have been drawn to a chemical plant, and the geth shot it. That would be an act of either desperation, or just intelligence.

There is a scene where shepard goes to the hospital on the krogan homeworld and meets up with this clan leader. (forget the name) He shoots a barrel which causes a krogan to catch fire. There's a difference between using the enviornemt and actually going to chemical weapons. That was just a scenario as that could be interpreted in many ways.

Or the geth could have manufactured and deployed chemical weapons.

But I agree, too much speculations for everyone for there to be concrete arguments.

[garrus and ashley squad]

Steelcan wrote...

garrus and ashley squad wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

garrus and ashley squad wrote...

If they did use chemical warfare I don't see why bioware would not just clearly state that. That would have a huge impact on a race, and is to a lesser extent like the genophage.

Why would they? They spent the last two games carefully avoiding any mention of the Quarian death toll in the Morning War after establishing it in the books and ME1 dialogue. ME3 committed no dialogue to that, or to the centuries of Geth isolationism and how it contributed to the current situation. They wanted to make a narrative sympathetic to the Geth, and the only way they could do that was by effectively sweeping the other side under the rug. I knew something was up my first time through ME3 when Xen threw out those softball arguments for going to war when stronger ones were made in the second game.

They had the perfect oppurtunity in the books to say chemical weapons were waged as well. There are clear chances to explain and say the geth did. Which leads me to believe they didn't.

They also never clarified if krogan give birth to live youngor through eggs, Okeer implies one, Eve another.  They never specified where the Crucible came from though leviathan would have been the perfect place to do so.  They don't clarify if the Reapers are many minds or just one.  They don't detail how cerberus became so powerful so quickly.

These seem a lot minor than the quarian and geth war. That was a huge spot in the game and a decsion that we had to make. Most of these aren't.

[Steelcan]

HellbirdIV wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Hellbird, if you're rooted in your belief that the Quarians exterminated themselves while the Geth looked on with confused puppy-dog eyes, I'm not going to waste my time with you.

And that's why you fail. You presume I am as fervent in my support of the geth as you are in your blind love for the quarians.

The truth is that I only argue based on logic and facts, without emotional investment, to reach these conclusions. You're clearly ignoring what I say when it doesn't accomodate your belief that anyone who disagrees with you is willfully ignorant - I have already stated that I think the geth killed quarian civilians.

Take note of the highlighted part. I think. I do not know. The two are not interchangeable.

The logical conclusion of the geth's hostility towards quarians and the fact geth killed 99% of the quarian population is that the geth killed civilians in great numbers.  Its a logical conclusion, not a blind belief.

[Steelcan]

garrus and ashley squad wrote...


These seem a lot minor than the quarian and geth war. That was a huge spot in the game and a decsion that we had to make. Most of these aren't.

The Citadel archives also make itun clear if the genophage release was authorized or not.  That big enough?

[HellbirdIV]

Steelcan wrote...

The logical conclusion of the geth's
hostility towards quarians and the fact geth killed 99% of the quarian
population is that the geth killed civilians in great numbers.  Its a
logical conclusion, not a blind belief.

It is blind belief, because it is based on prejudice, not evidence.

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 04 août 2013 - 04:52 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Steelcan wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

But that doesn't make sense either since it's clearly shown that once the Geth took up arms against the Quarians, things went south rather quickly. No, I think conventional fighting, however brief, was what was responsible for this kind of damage.

So deploying chemical weapons would not have things go south for the quarians rather quickly?

Conventional warfare to me does not seem capable of explaining how such massive numbers of people, billions, could be killed in less than a year.

It seems perfectly reasonable to me. The Geth don't slow down, they don't rest, they're constantly on the hunt, they have advanced sensor equipment, they have numbers and surprise on their side, they're widespread enough to be just about everywhere at once, and they're in enough of a panicked rage to have the motivation to act. 

[Steelcan]

HellbirdIV wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

The logical conclusion of the geth's
hostility towards quarians and the fact geth killed 99% of the quarian
population is that the geth killed civilians in great numbers.  Its a
logical conclusion, not a blind belief.

It is blind belief, because it is based on prejudice, not evidence.

  Evidence,
The geth killed 99% of the quarian population, that is a fact
The geth killed emissaries approahing their territory after the war, fact

Conclusion, the geth do not have qualms about observing the rules of warfare and so their use of chemical weapons (further implied by legion) seems likely.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

HellbirdIV wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Hellbird, if you're rooted in your belief that the Quarians exterminated themselves while the Geth looked on with confused puppy-dog eyes, I'm not going to waste my time with you.

And that's why you fail. You presume I am as fervent in my support of the geth as you are in your blind love for the quarians.

Hellbird, I think you're one of the more fatuous defenders of the Geth that I was referring to earlier. So far, you haven't actually managed to make much of a credible argument against DeinonSlayer, and resorting to an ad hominem does nothing but further trivialize your position. You've been discredited.

The truth is that I only argue based on logic and facts, without emotional investment, to reach these conclusions. You're clearly ignoring what I say when it doesn't accomodate your belief that anyone who disagrees with you is willfully ignorant or somehow stupid - I have already stated that I think the geth killed quarian civilians.

Take note of the highlighted part. I think. I do not know. The two are not interchangeable.

You're making the argument to ignorance fallacy and asking for evidence that is irrelevant in the face of the implied evidence from both the Quarians and the Geth. You don't need the proof that the Geth killed civilians since the game and story and both parties already imply that it did indeed happen. You've changed your position and moved the goalposts.

[DeinonSlayer]

HellbirdIV wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

The logical conclusion of the geth's
hostility towards quarians and the fact geth killed 99% of the quarian
population is that the geth killed civilians in great numbers.  Its a
logical conclusion, not a blind belief.

It is blind belief, because it is based on prejudice, not evidence.

Dare I ask how it's based on prejudice? We've got a dead planet, a three-hundred-year effort to clean up "toxins" from the war, and an entity with the remorseless mentality of the Geth VI presiding over it (Legion didn't exist until he was sent out to find Shepard). No efforts made to communicate. Shooting down anyone who enters their space to try. Just because I draw different conclusions from that than you do doesn't make my position less reasonable.

[Steelcan]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

It seems perfectly reasonable to me. The Geth don't slow down, they don't rest, they're constantly on the hunt, they have advanced sensor equipment, they have numbers and surprise on their side, they're widespread enough to be just about everywhere at once, and they're in enough of a panicked rage to have the motivation to act. 

We don't know the numbers of geth before the war so saying they outnumbered the quarians is unprovable.  They do not have surprise because the quarians attacked first. 

The geth do have to slow down for things like organizing attacks, regrouping after battles, we see that they only zerg rush when they are isolated from other geth, yu said yourself that they were networked to each other,

[HellbirdIV]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

The Geth don't slow down, they don't rest, they're constantly on the hunt, they have advanced sensor equipment, they have numbers and surprise on their side, they're widespread enough to be just about everywhere at once, and they're in enough of a panicked rage to have the motivation to act.

As I see it, the geth had, at the absolute most, heavy infantry weapons. Mass accelerator cannons, rockets and missiles, maybe flamethrowers (since those don't seem to be banned by Citadel conventions, unlike in our reality) as the geth were supposedly built for infantry warfare.

Most geth were not military, but agricultural labour and domestic - they would be limited to the use of whatever small arms they could obtain (as for how a domestic servant would have the capacity to kill with an assault rifle, I attribute that to the networked intelligence).

I agree with your assesment, really, except one point - 'panicked rage'. The geth are not wrathful, after all. They have no emotions. Rather, their killing is motivated strictly by ignorance - well, insufficient data - as to the nature of organics. I don't think the geth can tell the difference between combatants and civilians given their limited understanding.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Steelcan wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

The logical conclusion of the geth's
hostility towards quarians and the fact geth killed 99% of the quarian
population is that the geth killed civilians in great numbers.  Its a
logical conclusion, not a blind belief.

It is blind belief, because it is based on prejudice, not evidence.

  Evidence,
The geth killed 99% of the quarian population, that is a fact
The geth killed emissaries approahing their territory after the war, fact

Conclusion, the geth do not have qualms about observing the rules of warfare and so their use of chemical weapons (further implied by legion) seems likely.

You've reached a false conclusion of character based on subjective observations of actions, as well as repeatedly implying (through what I believe is a contextomy of Legion's words) an event that there is no evidence of happening.

You have facts in your argument, but you are being biased with how you use them. It's an improper argument.

[garrus and ashley squad]

Steelcan wrote...

garrus and ashley squad wrote...


These seem a lot minor than the quarian and geth war. That was a huge spot in the game and a decsion that we had to make. Most of these aren't.

The Citadel archives also make itun clear if the genophage release was authorized or not.  That big enough?

Cleared or not it was still used, and also a lot more evidence to it being cleared. There is no effort on the council to cure it, and this leads me to believing that they did clear it and even if they didn't, they had no problem with it. In fact a lot of things are not cleared during war, such as a general or commander will be placed to take care of a problem. So there is a lot of variations on that. So even if it wasn't cleared by someone higher up, it could of still been cleared by a person in charge of taking care of the krogan problem. Which to me seems minor as it had to of been cleared by someone and the council did not have a problem with it as the krogan was out of control and there was no rush for a cure. Which makes this minor to me, but I don't want to get into this as I'd rather stay on topic with this.

[Steelcan]

HellbirdIV wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

The Geth don't slow down, they don't rest, they're constantly on the hunt, they have advanced sensor equipment, they have numbers and surprise on their side, they're widespread enough to be just about everywhere at once, and they're in enough of a panicked rage to have the motivation to act.

As I see it, the geth had, at the absolute most, heavy infantry weapons. Mass accelerator cannons, rockets and missiles, maybe flamethrowers (since those don't seem to be banned by Citadel conventions, unlike in our reality) as the geth were supposedly built for infantry warfare.

Most geth were not military, but agricultural labour and domestic - they would be limited to the use of whatever small arms they could obtain (as for how a domestic servant would have the capacity to kill with an assault rifle, I attribute that to the networked intelligence).

I agree with your assesment, really, except one point - 'panicked rage'. The geth are not wrathful, after all. They have no emotions. Rather, their killing is motivated strictly by ignorance - well, insufficient data - as to the nature of organics. I don't think the geth can tell the difference between combatants and civilians given their limited understanding.

That networked intelligence would also enable those domestic geth to use more advanced weaponry.  The geth would have bene on fleets as well working as VI's managing weapons and such.