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[Sir DeLoria]

Wait, when is it stated, that the Geth killed exactly 99% of the Quarian population? I can't imagine the population even being that high.

[garrus and ashley squad]

Steelcan wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

It seems perfectly reasonable to me. The Geth don't slow down, they don't rest, they're constantly on the hunt, they have advanced sensor equipment, they have numbers and surprise on their side, they're widespread enough to be just about everywhere at once, and they're in enough of a panicked rage to have the motivation to act. 

We don't know the numbers of geth before the war so saying they outnumbered the quarians is unprovable.  They do not have surprise because the quarians attacked first. 

The geth do have to slow down for things like organizing attacks, regrouping after battles, we see that they only zerg rush when they are isolated from other geth, yu said yourself that they were networked to each other,

You're right we don't know if they were outnumbered, but the geth do process information very quickly. Even if they do slow down it isn't for long, and is much shorter than the quarians. 

Modifié par garrus and ashley squad, 04 août 2013 - 05:05 .

[Steelcan]

garrus and ashley squad wrote...


Cleared or not it was still used, and also a lot more evidence to it being cleared. There is no effort on the council to cure it, and this leads me to believing that they did clear it and even if they didn't, they had no problem with it. In fact a lot of things are not cleared during war, such as a general or commander will be placed to take care of a problem. So there is a lot of variations on that. So even if it wasn't cleared by someone higher up, it could of still been cleared by a person in charge of taking care of the krogan problem. Which to me seems minor as it had to of been cleared by someone and the council did not have a problem with it as the krogan was out of control and there was no rush for a cure. Which makes this minor to me, but I don't want to get into this as I'd rather stay on topic with this.

  I don't see why they would clarify the details of the war.  They are not plot important, all that the plot requires is that the wuarians took massive casualties and the geth have Rannoch, so that is what BioWare provides.  Had the games focused more on the Morning War itself more details would  have been provided.  Since it was not, speculations for everyone.

[HellbirdIV]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Hellbird, I think you're one of the more fatuous defenders of the Geth that I was referring to earlier.

So... You don't know what you're talking about?

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

You've changed your position and moved the goalposts.

Really?

HellbirdIV wrote...

I blame the quarians more than the geth because the geth were mentally
infantile at the time, and did not have any way to understand the
consequences of their actions beyond "We must survive".

The quarians killed other quarians in order to get at the geth, with no such excuse.

That's my original argument. I've not deviated from that point: This is what evidence tells us happened.

After that post, all I've done is point out blatantly false statements and argue in favour of rational discourse over prejudiced judgement.

How exactly did my "position" change?

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 04 août 2013 - 05:07 .

[garrus and ashley squad]

Steelcan wrote...

garrus and ashley squad wrote...


Cleared or not it was still used, and also a lot more evidence to it being cleared. There is no effort on the council to cure it, and this leads me to believing that they did clear it and even if they didn't, they had no problem with it. In fact a lot of things are not cleared during war, such as a general or commander will be placed to take care of a problem. So there is a lot of variations on that. So even if it wasn't cleared by someone higher up, it could of still been cleared by a person in charge of taking care of the krogan problem. Which to me seems minor as it had to of been cleared by someone and the council did not have a problem with it as the krogan was out of control and there was no rush for a cure. Which makes this minor to me, but I don't want to get into this as I'd rather stay on topic with this.

  I don't see why they would clarify the details of the war.  They are not plot important, all that the plot requires is that the wuarians took massive casualties and the geth have Rannoch, so that is what BioWare provides.  Had the games focused more on the Morning War itself more details would  have been provided.  Since it was not, speculations for everyone.

Pretty much specualtions all around. I just thought this was to big to leave out.

[DeinonSlayer]

Necanor wrote...

Wait, when is it stated, that the Geth killed exactly 99% of the Quarian population? I can't imagine the population even being that high.

ME1 elevator conversation: "The Geth killed billions and drove us from our homeworld. Most Quarians believe we have paid adequately for our mistake."

Also see the excerpt from Mass Effect: Revelation I posted a few pages back.

[Steelcan]

garrus and ashley squad wrote...

Pretty much specualtions all around. I just thought this was to big to leave out.

Why?  BioWare doesn't need to explain the specifics to deal with the plot.  The didn't clarify if the rachni used such weapons either, though for the rachni I'm inclined to just believe they zerg rushed the galaxy.

[Sir DeLoria]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Wait, when is it stated, that the Geth killed exactly 99% of the Quarian population? I can't imagine the population even being that high.

ME1 elevator conversation: "The Geth killed billions and drove us from our homeworld. Most Quarians believe we have paid adequately for our mistake."

Also see the excerpt from Mass Effect: Revelation I posted a few pages back.

In that case, Quarian population was roughly 1.6 Billion pre-war.

[Steelcan]

Necanor wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Wait, when is it stated, that the Geth killed exactly 99% of the Quarian population? I can't imagine the population even being that high.

ME1 elevator conversation: "The Geth killed billions and drove us from our homeworld. Most Quarians believe we have paid adequately for our mistake."

Also see the excerpt from Mass Effect: Revelation I posted a few pages back.

In that case, Quarian population was roughly 1.6 Billion pre-war.

Unlikely, humans had a population of billions BEFORE space travel, the quarians probably had similar population figures, just a higher density. 

Also they had large populations on other worlds.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Steelcan wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

It seems perfectly reasonable to me. The Geth don't slow down, they don't rest, they're constantly on the hunt, they have advanced sensor equipment, they have numbers and surprise on their side, they're widespread enough to be just about everywhere at once, and they're in enough of a panicked rage to have the motivation to act. 

We don't know the numbers of geth before the war so saying they outnumbered the quarians is unprovable.  They do not have surprise because the quarians attacked first. 

The geth do have to slow down for things like organizing attacks, regrouping after battles, we see that they only zerg rush when they are isolated from other geth, yu said yourself that they were networked to each other,

Did I say the Geth ever outnumbered the Quarians at all?

You're making a definist fallacy: You're saying that since the Quarians did indeed attack the Geth first, it would be logical to assume that the Geth would counter-attack. It's heavily implied in the game that this is not the case.

The Geth took the Quarians completely by surprise. Why? Because the Quarians weren't expecting the Geth to actually stand up and take up arms against them. That's how they took the Quarians by surprise.

Surprise is the single most effective tactical advantage to war, and strategic if you can achieve it.

And I believe that the zerg rush tactic worked. Speaking from experience of military tactics, zerg-rushing the enemy is probably the single-most effective tactic to use when you take an enemy by surprise. Surprise by overwhelming assault works wonders. It worked at Pearl Harbor. It worked at the Philippines, and Singapore, and Guam, and the Mariana's, and dozens of other locales in the South Pacific when the Japanese started their fight. It had devastating effects during the Tet Offensive. It certainly worked during the Winter of 1950 when the Chinese zerg-rushed the U.N. Forces near the Chosin Reservoir in Korea. Networked attacks and counter-strikes by the Geth would be effective, but they wouldn't have the sudden, chaotic effect that a zerg-rush or blitzkrieg might.

[HellbirdIV]

Steelcan wrote...
That
networked intelligence would also enable those domestic geth to use
more advanced weaponry.

Yes, it would. However the ability to use the weapons do not confer the possession of such weapons.

I can fire a bolt-action rifle with some precision, yet there are no guns in my home.

Necanor wrote...

Wait, when is it stated, that the Geth killed exactly 99% of the Quarian population? I can't imagine the population even being that high.

An outdated novel with several glaring inconsistencies from the games offhandedly narrates that the Migrant Fleet survivors were less than one percent of the total quarian population. As you do.

[DeinonSlayer]

Steelcan wrote...

garrus and ashley squad wrote...

Pretty much specualtions all around. I just thought this was to big to leave out.

Why?  BioWare doesn't need to explain the specifics to deal with the plot.  The didn't clarify if the rachni used such weapons either, though for the rachni I'm inclined to just believe they zerg rushed the galaxy.

If they go to work on the Crucible, Hackett says they seem really knowledgeable about weapons of mass destruction. Incidentally, ME2's secondary codex entry on Geth culture talks about them throwing thousands of platforms at entrenched Quarian positions in the Morning War - since they don't actually die when a platform is decommissioned, to borrow a line from Battlestar, "death becomes a learning experience."

[garrus and ashley squad]

Steelcan wrote...

garrus and ashley squad wrote...

Pretty much specualtions all around. I just thought this was to big to leave out.

Why?  BioWare doesn't need to explain the specifics to deal with the plot.  The didn't clarify if the rachni used such weapons either, though for the rachni I'm inclined to just believe they zerg rushed the galaxy.

For the simple fact of having the geth since the beginning of the game. Fighting them and their beef with the quarians. Us having to choose with the genocide with a race. The fact that their are plenty of times they talk about it, but never state that they did. 

For the rachni, they were a minor part of the game imo. We dealt with them in the 1st game. We didn't in the 2nd game, and on a side mission in me3. They weren't as big as having to choose between a death of a whole race.

[DeinonSlayer]

HellbirdIV wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Wait, when is it stated, that the Geth killed exactly 99% of the Quarian population? I can't imagine the population even being that high.

An outdated novel with several glaring inconsistencies from the games offhandedly narrates that the Migrant Fleet survivors were less than one percent of the total quarian population. As you do.

A statement corroborated in ME1 dialogue, as noted.

[Steelcan]

HellbirdIV wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
That
networked intelligence would also enable those domestic geth to use
more advanced weaponry.

Yes, it would. However the ability to use the weapons do not confer the possession of such weapons.

I can fire a bolt-action rifle with some precision, yet there are no guns in my home.

Necanor wrote...

Wait, when is it stated, that the Geth killed exactly 99% of the Quarian population? I can't imagine the population even being that high.

An outdated novel with several glaring inconsistencies from the games offhandedly narrates that the Migrant Fleet survivors were less than one percent of the total quarian population. As you do.

Same way rebels get weapons all the time.  The storing of the Bastille, Spartacus's revolt, the uprising in Syria, rebels get weapons eithe rthrough taking them from the one who they are rebelling against, sympathizers from the opposition, or through defectors (in this case geth used for warfare purposes)

The quotation is not from Deception so it is considere canon.

[HellbirdIV]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Incidentally, ME2's secondary codex entry on Geth culture talks about them throwing thousands of platforms at entrenched Quarian positions in the Morning War - since they don't actually die when a platform is decommissioned, to borrow a line from Battlestar, "death becomes a learning experience."

I just want to add, that does seem like it contradicts the notion that the geth simply massacred the quarians entirely by surprise or killed them with WMDs - after all, what's the point of assaulting an entrenched position with infantry when you've got access to WMDs and no vested interest in preserving the location for your own use?

[Steelcan]

garrus and ashley squad wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

garrus and ashley squad wrote...

Pretty much specualtions all around. I just thought this was to big to leave out.

Why?  BioWare doesn't need to explain the specifics to deal with the plot.  The didn't clarify if the rachni used such weapons either, though for the rachni I'm inclined to just believe they zerg rushed the galaxy.

For the simple fact of having the geth since the beginning of the game. Fighting them and their beef with the quarians. Us having to choose with the genocide with a race. The fact that their are plenty of times they talk about it, but never state that they did. 

For the rachni, they were a minor part of the game imo. We dealt with them in the 1st game. We didn't in the 2nd game, and on a side mission in me3. They weren't as big as having to choose between a death of a whole race.

Again, the plot does not demand we know the specifics of the war.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

[quote]HellbirdIV wrote...

[quote]MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Hellbird, I think you're one of the more fatuous defenders of the Geth that I was referring to earlier.[/quote]

So... You don't know what you're talking about?

[/quote]

Clearly you don't if you have to say that I don't know what I'm talking about in regards to people (whom I believe you are one of) making foolish arguments.
[quote]HellbirdIV wrote...
[quote]MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

You've changed your position and moved the goalposts.[/quote]

Really?
[/quote]

[quote]HellbirdIV wrote...

I blame the quarians more than the geth because the geth were mentally
infantile at the time, and did not have any way to understand the
consequences of their actions beyond "We must survive".

The quarians killed other quarians in order to get at the geth, with no such excuse.[/quote]

That's my original argument. I've not deviated from that point: This is what evidence tells us happened.

After that post, all I've done is point out blatantly false statements and argue in favour of rational discourse over prejudiced judgement.

How exactly did my "position" change?
[/quote]

You've deviated the point of each of your arguments. You're changing what your argument is arguing for. First, your point is what you said it was. When I noticed it and took action, you were changing it to use it as a layout for an ad hominem against DeinonSlayer. Instead of trying to keep your point, you're changing it to make an attack against the rational discourse you're espousing (which really isn't that rational and definitely much more prejudiced). The statements against you were not false. 

Just because you don't like a statement or evidence doesn't make it false.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 04 août 2013 - 05:17 .

[Jorji Costava]

I'll just throw this in here very quickly: It's worth noting that the Quarians may have inflicted substantial collateral damage on themselves during the course of the war, simply because there was no way to defend themselves otherwise. There was no Geth state; there weren't many places where there were large concentrations of Geth and few to no Quarians, so it's hard to see how the Quarians would be able to fight back at all without risking substantial collateral damage.

Quick example: Manila was the second most destroyed city of WWII (after Warsaw, Poland). 100,000 Filipino civilians died during the course of a mere month of fighting, and many of the cultural treasures of the historic Intramuros district were utterly destroyed. But a large percentage of the damage was actually inflicted by US aerial bombing and artillery. In the heavy urban fighting, there was no other way to get at the Japanese defensive positions within the city, and massive collateral damage inflicted largely by friendly forces resulted.

[garrus and ashley squad]

Steelcan wrote...

garrus and ashley squad wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

garrus and ashley squad wrote...

Pretty much specualtions all around. I just thought this was to big to leave out.

Why?  BioWare doesn't need to explain the specifics to deal with the plot.  The didn't clarify if the rachni used such weapons either, though for the rachni I'm inclined to just believe they zerg rushed the galaxy.

For the simple fact of having the geth since the beginning of the game. Fighting them and their beef with the quarians. Us having to choose with the genocide with a race. The fact that their are plenty of times they talk about it, but never state that they did. 

For the rachni, they were a minor part of the game imo. We dealt with them in the 1st game. We didn't in the 2nd game, and on a side mission in me3. They weren't as big as having to choose between a death of a whole race.

Again, the plot does not demand we know the specifics of the war.

I never said it does.

[Sir DeLoria]

Steelcan wrote...

Necanor wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Necanor wrote...
Wait, when is it stated, that the Geth killed exactly 99% of the Quarian population? I can't imagine the population even being that high.

ME1 elevator conversation: "The Geth killed billions and drove us from our homeworld. Most Quarians believe we have paid adequately for our mistake."
Also see the excerpt from Mass Effect: Revelation I posted a few pages back.

In that case, Quarian population was roughly 1.6 Billion pre-war.

Unlikely, humans had a population of billions BEFORE space travel, the quarians probably had similar population figures, just a higher density. 
Also they had large populations on other worlds.

Rannoch is a walled garde for a reason, the majority of Rannoch is desert or ocean, only small landstripes are hospitable. Also, from what we see of Rannoch only small areas of these hospitable places once had ctities and those cities don't look like they once housed many millions. Population on colonies was even lower. I'm partially speculating, but I really doubt the Quarians ever had a large population, especially one exceeding 2 billion. Not every race has to reproduce as much, as the humans, I don't see why they had to have a large population.

[Steelcan]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Did I say the Geth ever outnumbered the Quarians at all?

You're making a definist fallacy: You're saying that since the Quarians did indeed attack the Geth first, it would be logical to assume that the Geth would counter-attack. It's heavily implied in the game that this is not the case.

The Geth took the Quarians completely by surprise. Why? Because the Quarians weren't expecting the Geth to actually stand up and take up arms against them. That's how they took the Quarians by surprise.

Surprise is the single most effective tactical advantage to war, and strategic if you can achieve it.

And I believe that the zerg rush tactic worked. Speaking from experience of military tactics, zerg-rushing the enemy is probably the single-most effective tactic to use when you take an enemy by surprise. Surprise by overwhelming assault works wonders. It worked at Pearl Harbor. It worked at the Philippines, and Singapore, and Guam, and the Mariana's, and dozens of other locales in the South Pacific when the Japanese started their fight. It had devastating effects during the Tet Offensive. It certainly worked during the Winter of 1950 when the Chinese zerg-rushed the U.N. Forces near the Chosin Reservoir in Korea. Networked attacks and counter-strikes by the Geth would be effective, but they wouldn't have the sudden, chaotic effect that a zerg-rush or blitzkrieg might.

1.  yes, you said they had numbers on their side, implying a numbers advantage through outnumbering the quarians.

2.  You cannot be saying the geth did not counter attack?  the geth counter attacked, and drove the quarians off of their worlds.

3.  the quarians knew some geth would resist, Tali talks about this in ME1, they hoped the majority would not be more than simple machines, implying they knew some would fight back.

4.  No argument there, but I still don't see the feasibility of such tactics resulting in such massive casualties so quickly.

[Steelcan]

garrus and ashley squad wrote...

I never said it does.

That is why the specifics of the war are not detailed.

[DeinonSlayer]

HellbirdIV wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Incidentally, ME2's secondary codex entry on Geth culture talks about them throwing thousands of platforms at entrenched Quarian positions in the Morning War - since they don't actually die when a platform is decommissioned, to borrow a line from Battlestar, "death becomes a learning experience."

I just want to add, that does seem like it contradicts the notion that the geth simply massacred the quarians entirely by surprise or killed them with WMDs - after all, what's the point of assaulting an entrenched position with infantry when you've got access to WMDs and no vested interest in preserving the location for your own use?

Ever notice those suits the Quarians wear? Ever wonder where those suits first came from?

There's no evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, for either side using nuclear weapons. The suits would, however, protect against chemical or biological attacks. Not calling it proof, but the shoe fits. Gas those who can be gassed, and send in infantry to mop up those who had protection. Think World War One trench warfare.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 04 août 2013 - 05:20 .

[Steelcan]

HellbirdIV wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Incidentally, ME2's secondary codex entry on Geth culture talks about them throwing thousands of platforms at entrenched Quarian positions in the Morning War - since they don't actually die when a platform is decommissioned, to borrow a line from Battlestar, "death becomes a learning experience."

I just want to add, that does seem like it contradicts the notion that the geth simply massacred the quarians entirely by surprise or killed them with WMDs - after all, what's the point of assaulting an entrenched position with infantry when you've got access to WMDs and no vested interest in preserving the location for your own use?

Who said that the geth only used chemical weapons?