252 réponses à ce sujet

[Eterna]

ManchesterUnitedFan1 wrote...

It is of course her right, but that doesn't mean that we aren't allowed to question her reasoning

What is there to question? She clearly plays these games largely for the romances, she appears to enjoy the F/F romnaces the most. Thus if they aren't included despite being included before of course she'd be upset, I would be too.  

Would you question my reasoning for not buyng the game if DA: I was not going to be an RPG? 

[Battlebloodmage]

I think people need to come down a bit with the argument. IMO, whether the homosexuality option is implemented is up to the developers. At the same time, whether someone decide to purchase a game for a particular feature then it's their right as well. I would say that it's wrong to question a person's motive for buying a game but at the same time, it's also wrong to say that a game should always have that feature. If I don't buy a game because it doesn't have S/S romance, then it's just a decision that I make because they don't have what I look for in a game, and it's not boycott. We shouldn't expect every game to have S/S romance since culturally, countries like Poland and Japan are not very open to homosexuality. In fact, Nintendo released a patch to their Sims game specifically to remove the S/S content. For me, a feature may not make or break the game, but it does make me more or less incline to buy it. 

Modifié par Battlebloodmage, 13 août 2013 - 08:32 .

[Xilizhra]

Foshizzlin wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

ManchesterUnitedFan1 wrote...

But you've heard barely anything about DA:I and you're already talking about boycotting it if there are no F/F romances.

In Xil's defense, if a game series that has always provided same-sex romances suddenly stops, she and other gamers who like same-sex content have a right to be upset.

And if another game seems to cater to heterosexuals and leave out players who prefer homosexual content (and there are a lot of straight players that do -- hang out on the forums and you'll meet plenty), she and everyone else that would prefer same-sex romances has a right to cry foul.

Because that does stink of some serious privilege.

You'd be rather upset if the tables were turned.

If Dragon Age suddenly became a game with nothing but homosexual men or women, I wouldn't really care. It's a video game. It's not "infringing upon my rights to heterosexuality". Just the same, forcing numerical quantities to balance out a homosexual/heterosexual ratio and not purchasing the game solely because it doesn't have a forced numerical quality is ridiculous. The game isn't "infringing upon your rights to homosexuality".

I'm saying this to Xil because I've seen his/her posts before on similar subjects, and Xil often takes an almost "crusading" stance for the cause of artificial implementation and quantity of homosexuality, and refuses to purchase the game if these needs are not met. It sounds far less like an actual cause-support, and more like just plain "bawww"ing over one's own wants not being met. I agree, Dragon Age should include homosexuals, bisexuals, heterosexuals, all of it, but I myself am not going to get offended if homosexuals outnumber heterosexuals. Just the same, no one should be getting offended if heterosexuals outnumber homosexuals. The best way, I feel, for LGBT rights, which again I strongly support and speak out for, to succeed is to stop thinking that homosexuals need special treatment. They need equal treatment, treatment no different from what heterosexuals get, to be truly equal. If you demand numerical quantities as a means to cater to your orientation, then you don't want equality, you want superiority. And again, all of this doesn't really matter, it's a video game, not an instrument of social action or social commentary. It's a fantasy world made by regular people like us.

It's not like the devs sit around thinking "Hmm, how can we oppress a sexual orientation today?"

1. From what I've heard about ToR, it sounds possibly intriguing, but without the romance bit, there's not enough room to build my character in the way that I would want to for the roleplaying to be fully adequate, which makes the game not quite good enough for me.
2. All I've asked for, funnily enough, is for equal treatment. Numerical equality is, in fact, still equality; I have no idea where you think that numerical superiority of one (which would obviously be heterosexuals) is equality, but it's frankly unsettling.
3. You're arguing from a position of heavy privilege where plenty of games meet your own desires even if this specific one wouldn't do so, hence you can better take the hit.
4. I've been less vehement in my purchasing choices and priorities before DA2 came out because the industry hadn't hit the point where it had a precedent of full equality in RPGs yet. After DA2 did, it did, and now I have a standard to fight for, maintain, and not let slip away.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 13 août 2013 - 08:31 .

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

@Etena, no because the TYPE of game DA:I is affects so much more content within the game than the romances do.

Besides, my interest was piqued; I've never heard anyone refuse to but a game based largely on romances before

If its the case for xil, that's cool, however as we have opposing viewpoints, there is plenty to question

Modifié par ManchesterUnitedFan1, 13 août 2013 - 08:44 .

[ElitePinecone]

Foshizzlin wrote...
They need equal treatment, treatment no different from what heterosexuals get, to be truly equal. If you demand numerical quantities as a means to cater to your orientation, then you don't want equality, you want superiority. And again, all of this doesn't really matter, it's a video game, not an instrument of social action or social commentary. It's a fantasy world made by regular people like us.

It's not like the devs sit around thinking "Hmm, how can we oppress a sexual orientation today?"

Fun fact: DA2 did have exactly equal treatment, from a romance point of view. Two opposite-sex and same-sex romances for each gender of Hawke. 

Earlier in the thread you said having every NPC open to both genders would "ruin" your game. If you genuinely feel that granting more options to other people is somehow taking away from the quality of your experience, that's your issue. Just to be clear, your posts are reading pretty much exactly like the ones David mentions in the panels above.

And really, implying that same-sex relationships are somehow privileged or made superior in Bioware's games (let alone the industry as a whole) is massively, massively wrong. At best they're given equal treatment in one series of games, and only in the second game of that series.

[Xilizhra]

Never mind, ToR is still almost completely horrible about the s/s thing.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 13 août 2013 - 11:02 .

[Kidd]

In this thread I learnt that I ask for superiority if I ask for two apples, the same amount, say, Xil is getting. Learn something new every day.

Sorry for taking your apples, Xil!

[Paul E Dangerously]

ElitePinecone wrote...
 If you genuinely feel that granting more options to other people is somehow taking away from the quality of your experience, that's your issue. Just to be clear, your posts are reading pretty much exactly like the ones David mentions in the panels above.

Take romance out of the equasion here, use this same logic on any other game element and see how people react. Say, difficulty. Or class abilities. Or choices.

While I think there should be something for everyone, having everything open to everybody and having NPCs flip/flop is not the right solution.

[sandalisthemaker]

Sopa de Gato wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...
 If you genuinely feel that granting more options to other people is somehow taking away from the quality of your experience, that's your issue. Just to be clear, your posts are reading pretty much exactly like the ones David mentions in the panels above.

Take romance out of the equasion here, use this same logic on any other game element and see how people react. Say, difficulty. Or class abilities. Or choices.

While I think there should be something for everyone, having everything open to everybody and having NPCs flip/flop is not the right solution.

Your opinion.
That solution is fine with me.

Modifié par sandalisthemaker, 13 août 2013 - 11:00 .

[Russalka]

I still do not see how the Dragon Age 2 romance plots were made worse by them being available to both genders.

[sandalisthemaker]

Russalka wrote...

I still do not see how the Dragon Age 2 romance plots were made worse by them being available to both genders.

They weren't.
People just make up bs reasons and complain about things being unrealistic in a fantasy game.

[billy the squid]

Russalka wrote...

I still do not see how the Dragon Age 2 romance plots were made worse by them being available to both genders.

They weren't really, they just did a crap job of implementing them.

Modifié par billy the squid, 13 août 2013 - 11:06 .

[Rawgrim]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Russalka wrote...

I still do not see how the Dragon Age 2 romance plots were made worse by them being available to both genders.

They weren't.
People just make up bs reasons and complain about things being unrealistic in a fantasy game.

Fantasy games\\worlds has their own rules and lore. This is established early in the games\\books, and it is viewed as REAL when it comes to the setting. So since we are told, and shown, that there are dragons in Thedas. That makes dragons real in the dragon age universe. Surely you would think it odd if Frodo pulled out a minigun in Return of the King, even though its a fantasy story?

And the player being able to decide the sexuality of every love interest in the game, is messing with the characters and story as a whole. Allthough not in a gamebreaking one. It would be the same if, say, my Hawke was a rogue, and that choice switched Isabela from a rogue to a mage. Nobody is questioning, or wanting to get rid of, same sex relationships in the games. Everyone getting the same amount of options is great, and it should be like that. But it makes the whole thing more belivable, and less immersion breaking, if there are 2 gay love interests for each gender, 2 straight ones, and 2 bi ones. Something along that line. It would make the main charater seem alot less like a Mary Sue as well.

[Xilizhra]

Rawgrim wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Russalka wrote...

I still do not see how the Dragon Age 2 romance plots were made worse by them being available to both genders.

They weren't.
People just make up bs reasons and complain about things being unrealistic in a fantasy game.

Fantasy gamesworlds has their own rules and lore. This is established early in the gamesbooks, and it is viewed as REAL when it comes to the setting. So since we are told, and shown, that there are dragons in Thedas. That makes dragons real in the dragon age universe. Surely you would think it odd if Frodo pulled out a minigun in Return of the King, even though its a fantasy story?

And the player being able to decide the sexuality of every love interest in the game, is messing with the characters and story as a whole. Allthough not in a gamebreaking one. It would be the same if, say, my Hawke was a rogue, and that choice switched Isabela from a rogue to a mage. Nobody is questioning, or wanting to get rid of, same sex relationships in the games. Everyone getting the same amount of options is great, and it should be like that. But it makes the whole thing more belivable, and less immersion breaking, if there are 2 gay love interests for each gender, 2 straight ones, and 2 bi ones. Something along that line. It would make the main charater seem alot less like a Mary Sue as well.

All right, great. Just advocate to fully flesh out six romances instead of four and direct their resources in that direction.

[sandalisthemaker]

Rawgrim wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Russalka wrote...

I still do not see how the Dragon Age 2 romance plots were made worse by them being available to both genders.

They weren't.
People just make up bs reasons and complain about things being unrealistic in a fantasy game.

Fantasy gamesworlds has their own rules and lore. This is established early in the gamesbooks, and it is viewed as REAL when it comes to the setting. So since we are told, and shown, that there are dragons in Thedas. That makes dragons real in the dragon age universe. Surely you would think it odd if Frodo pulled out a minigun in Return of the King, even though its a fantasy story?

And the player being able to decide the sexuality of every love interest in the game, is messing with the characters and story as a whole. Allthough not in a gamebreaking one. It would be the same if, say, my Hawke was a rogue, and that choice switched Isabela from a rogue to a mage. Nobody is questioning, or wanting to get rid of, same sex relationships in the games. Everyone getting the same amount of options is great, and it should be like that. But it makes the whole thing more belivable, and less immersion breaking, if there are 2 gay love interests for each gender, 2 straight ones, and 2 bi ones. Something along that line. It would make the main charater seem alot less like a Mary Sue as well.

Your example about Isabela changing classes is not a good one because that would alter overall gameplay balance and strategy. A character's sexuality does not.

I wouldn't have a problem if there were an equal number of sexualites per gender, but if they are unable to do this, then having every LI available is the only solution.
Fairness and equality trumps anyone's sense of realism. This is what the powers that be (David Gaider) have stated. 

[Rawgrim]

Xilizhra wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Russalka wrote...

I still do not see how the Dragon Age 2 romance plots were made worse by them being available to both genders.

They weren't.
People just make up bs reasons and complain about things being unrealistic in a fantasy game.

Fantasy gamesworlds has their own rules and lore. This is established early in the gamesbooks, and it is viewed as REAL when it comes to the setting. So since we are told, and shown, that there are dragons in Thedas. That makes dragons real in the dragon age universe. Surely you would think it odd if Frodo pulled out a minigun in Return of the King, even though its a fantasy story?

And the player being able to decide the sexuality of every love interest in the game, is messing with the characters and story as a whole. Allthough not in a gamebreaking one. It would be the same if, say, my Hawke was a rogue, and that choice switched Isabela from a rogue to a mage. Nobody is questioning, or wanting to get rid of, same sex relationships in the games. Everyone getting the same amount of options is great, and it should be like that. But it makes the whole thing more belivable, and less immersion breaking, if there are 2 gay love interests for each gender, 2 straight ones, and 2 bi ones. Something along that line. It would make the main charater seem alot less like a Mary Sue as well.

All right, great. Just advocate to fully flesh out six romances instead of four and direct their resources in that direction.

The number could get reduced to 4 as well, since 6 completely invalidates my point...

[Ianamus]

I find it rather amusing that as I watch the linked videos talking about arguments over all the companions being available to both genders this discussion is taking place. 

I've said it every time this argument comes up but I'll say it again: Until they have the resources to implement 6 romances, 2 m/f only, 2 s/s only and 2 available to anyone the "four LI's open to everyone" approach is the only way to give everyone the same number of choices. And in Bioware games choice is arguably one of, if not the, most important aspect(s). 

Edit: ! This is why I should probably read the last page before posting... 

But the point stands: It's either that or having every LI open to either gender. It may not make the most sense but It's what's fair, and fairness is more important here. 

Modifié par EJ107, 13 août 2013 - 11:30 .

[sandalisthemaker]

Rawgrim wrote...


The number could get reduced to 4 as well, since 6 completely invalidates my point...

Which would completely eliminate fair and equal options for everyone.

[Xilizhra]

The number could get reduced to 4 as well, since 6 completely invalidates my point...

Er, how would six invalidate your point? It's required for your point to work. You then have two straight, two gay, two bi for each gender.

[Rawgrim]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Russalka wrote...

I still do not see how the Dragon Age 2 romance plots were made worse by them being available to both genders.

They weren't.
People just make up bs reasons and complain about things being unrealistic in a fantasy game.

Fantasy gamesworlds has their own rules and lore. This is established early in the gamesbooks, and it is viewed as REAL when it comes to the setting. So since we are told, and shown, that there are dragons in Thedas. That makes dragons real in the dragon age universe. Surely you would think it odd if Frodo pulled out a minigun in Return of the King, even though its a fantasy story?

And the player being able to decide the sexuality of every love interest in the game, is messing with the characters and story as a whole. Allthough not in a gamebreaking one. It would be the same if, say, my Hawke was a rogue, and that choice switched Isabela from a rogue to a mage. Nobody is questioning, or wanting to get rid of, same sex relationships in the games. Everyone getting the same amount of options is great, and it should be like that. But it makes the whole thing more belivable, and less immersion breaking, if there are 2 gay love interests for each gender, 2 straight ones, and 2 bi ones. Something along that line. It would make the main charater seem alot less like a Mary Sue as well.

Your example about Isabela changing classes is not a good one because that would alter overall gameplay balance and strategy. A character's sexuality does not.

I wouldn't have a problem if there were an equal number of sexualites per gender, but if they are unable to do this, then having every LI available is the only solution.
Fairness and equality trumps anyone's sense of realism. This is what the powers that be (David Gaider) have stated. 

DA2 didn`t require strategy, but I see your point. The point I was making was that changing things like that can make a character seems more tailored to the player, and not being his own character. There is more to a character than the romances and how they can be used in combat.

Not having any romances is a solution as well. Its not a dating game, after all. But I would like them to be in the game.

Fairness and equality is the key here, of course. Its probably the way it was implemented thats is at fault here. Everyone just switched to Hawke-sexual in the game, and it was painfully obvious. It just got handed to Hawke on a plate. Belivability is probably a better word to use than realism, in this case, though. Its not unrealistic that there are bisexuals in the world of Thedas. But its not belivable that character just switch sexualities in order to satisfy Hawke.

[Rawgrim]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...


The number could get reduced to 4 as well, since 6 completely invalidates my point...

Which would completely eliminate fair and equal options for everyone.

True. My bad

[Rawgrim]

EJ107 wrote...

I find it rather amusing that as I watch the linked videos talking about arguments over all the companions being available to both genders this discussion is taking place. 

I've said it every time this argument comes up but I'll say it again: Until they have the resources to implement 6 romances, 2 m/f only, 2 s/s only and 2 available to anyone the "four LI's open to everyone" approach is the only way to give everyone the same number of choices. And in Bioware games choice is arguably one of, if not the, most important aspect(s). 

Edit: ! This is why I should probably read the last page before posting... 

But the point stands: It's either that or having every LI open to either gender. It may not make the most sense but It's what's fair, and fairness is more important here. 

If there arn`t enough resources, of course this is the most fair way to do it. But this doesn`t mean people shouldn`t point out things DA:I can improve on how they did things in DA2. Not being able to pick a race for your character was an even bigger complaint, and Bioware adressed it. Fairness for all, but implement it better. Simple as that.

[sandalisthemaker]

Rawgrim wrote...

 But its not belivable that character just switch sexualities in order to satisfy Hawke.

It can be argued that the Warden and Hawke are Mary Sues even without taking romances into account.

Even in DA:O with the 2 straight only options-  Morrigan was willing to take up a romance with a male warden no matter what.  Likewise a female could always romace Alistair no matter what.  You could be a saint or a horrible person, as long as you showered them with gifts, they would get in your pants. Is that not the very definition of a romance Mary Sue?

[devSin]

Rawgrim wrote...

But its not belivable that character just switch sexualities in order to satisfy Hawke.

Then you should clearly be assuming that they're bisexual, regardless their lack of desire to express such a thing to you.

There's nothing in the game that will contradict it, either.

I'm not sure why their "believability" hinges on something that's never even covered by the game, but if you see something that prevents you from believing they're straight or gay, why would you keep trying to believe it?

[Ianamus]

Rawgrim wrote...

Fairness and equality is the key here, of course. Its probably the way it was implemented thats is at fault here. Everyone just switched to Hawke-sexual in the game, and it was painfully obvious. It just got handed to Hawke on a plate. Belivability is probably a better word to use than realism, in this case, though. Its not unrealistic that there are bisexuals in the world of Thedas. But its not belivable that character just switch sexualities in order to satisfy Hawke.

I don't know- I've just done a playthrough romancing Fenris with male Hawke to see what it was like and I never really felt that he was 'turning' for my Hawke. He was flirted with and he responded to it, that was about it. It didn't really contradict anything I'd seen previously. 

In fact, the hints that he may have had an intimate relationship with Danarius at some point fit with it quite well. 

Anyway, It never felt forced or out of character. Nor did It feel that way when I romanced Merrill on my first playthrough. 

Modifié par EJ107, 13 août 2013 - 11:40 .