923 réponses à ce sujet

[CronoDragoon]

HellbirdIV wrote...
I'd call that an extremely biased "hypothesis". What exactly is a "Hardcore fan"? Who are you to make that distinction? Why would Tali be more popular with supposed "Hardcore" fans?

I have no idea, and actually I was not making any implication that because the hardcore fan base likes Tali more, they are better, OR that because Tali is liked by the hardcore fan base, she is better. I made an arbitrary distinction between hardcore and casual (played previous games vs. didn't) in order to respond to a post that posited that the difference between the Tali polls on the BSN or internet and BW's statistics was the difference between the hardcore internet crowd and the casual crowd. I was merely pointing out that such a hypothesis (which was essentially just pointing out that hardcore fan polls aren't representative of the entire fanbase and can't be used to gauge Tali's overall popularity) says nothing negative about hardcore fans that DO like Tali. In other words:

That statement reeks of self-congratulatory arrogance. "I like Tali/Miranda so I'm just smarter than the sheep who only pick the cute blue girl while smart people like me care about butts I mean personality".

How about you just chill? I love Miranda and Liara's characters  too and don't consider Tali "better" than them in any way. That I picked her for the romance isn't indicative that she is a better character than anyone else, only that I thought her character arc and romance content complimented the personality of the Shepard I was playing more. My post was more concerned with the question of why internet polls and BW's stats would show such discrepancy.

It's that same bull**** that people keep throwing out about how Paragon is only favored because people "blindly pick it". Ever occur to you that people who would just mash through the story without thought would more likely play a game that isn't Mass Effect 3? Christ almighty, people 'round here...

Indeed, people around here.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 07 août 2013 - 04:37 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

HellbirdIV wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

she's also in denial over how the Protheans actually influenced her race, because she can't accept that her people aren't gods gift to the cosmos.

It's a complete reversal of everything the asari believed for 50.000 years, so it is not unreasonable to not really buy into it, not to mention how it doesn't mesh with her views on the Protheans.

Well than, that's her own problem isn't it. It reminds me of those YEC's that reject science, history, and evidence because they think the universe can't possibly be more than 10,000 years old. If she want's to reject history from a guy who lived it, that only makes her look like an idiot.

That said, her denial reminds me of Pro-Cerberus people who seem to conveniently forget that humanity would be a small footnote in the Turian Hierarchy's military logs if not for the intervention of the asari. God's gift to the cosmos, right?

Really? What makes you say that? I think this is a contrarian fallacy.

By the way, it was the Council who intervened in the war. And I seem to recall that humanity fought a lot harder than the Turians expected. I'm stupid enough to think we'd win, but we'd be a lot more than a footnote in the Hierarchy. Everyone else would probably notice when the Turians were gearing up for war.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 07 août 2013 - 04:37 .

[jtav]

None of the female LIs are what I'd call "bad"/hard/tough. They all have rather soft centers when tiu get down to it.

[Barquiel]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Necanor wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
To make a broad generalization, I've noticed that there's a general difference in mindset to people who romance Tali over say Miranda or Ashley (who have the same general difference with each other).

Care to elaborate? Because I would really like to hear that hypothesis^_^

In general, people who romance a particular character tend to have similar views on the circumstances and affiliations that character has.

Miranda fans tend to like and emphasise the good parts of Cerberus ideals.
Liara fans are usually pro-Asari. Same with quarians for Tali fans.

And so on. There are exceptions of course. I think the degree varies between LI though. For example I don't think Ashley fans are as pro Alliance as Miranda fans are (for the sake of convenience) "pro-Cerberus". Also I'm not sure what if anything Garrus or Thane fans are predisposed towards.

If I remember correctly, the question whether or not Miranda should resign from Cerberus has been discussed over and over again in the old ME2 Miranda thread (I've avoided the ME3 thread/group, so I am not sure if that has changed).

Modifié par Barquiel, 07 août 2013 - 04:39 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

jtav wrote...

None of the female LIs are what I'd call "bad"/hard/tough. They all have rather soft centers when tiu get down to it.

I'd call them tough. It's more about how you handle the things that come your way, how you handle issues and problems.

Miranda is an incredibly strong person.

Jack learns to be strong instead of being primal and savage.

Ashley is one of the most determined soldiers I've seen. I despise her and hate her character, but she's got an incredible amount of determination to succeed in the alliance. I acknowledge that.

Tali, for all the crap I give her, has more strength than she lets on in ME3. She's been bumped up to Admiral, rather arbitrarily in my opinion, but she's not losing it. She's having problems dealing with the strain, yes, but for an untrained and untried civilian who's still barely older than a child, she's doing the best she can despite her circumstance.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 07 août 2013 - 04:41 .

[Kel Riever]

Man, Liara hate I like Liara. I like Miranda too. Most of the characters in the game I like. Liara may be a bit naive and is definately idealistic, but I kind of thought that was the point of her. I don't equate that to her being a poser. I also don't really think the idea of her being a shadow broker was a bad one based on what she ended up doing on Illium. The problem wasn't the idea, just the execution. The shadow broker was supposed to be on par with the Illusive man, right? Knowing all things. That didn't get handled well in ME3 at all, not because of the problem of the Liara character, but the problem of creativity of the author of that stuff...

And on Garrus. Garrus is an avenger. That doesn't make him a 'bad boy' in the traditional sense of 'doing all the bad things but having a good heart' He's not Han Solo. He's a turian for whom the ends justify the means, and there's nothing wrong with that based on what is going on in ME2, or even ME3.

What makes both Liara and Garrus appealing, I think, to most people, is they are designed as some of the characters who decide to stick with Shepard to the bitter end, no matter what. And they have their own designed justifications for that. It is not surprising, therefore, that a lot of people pick them as LIs. I think that sure, there's author bias on them, but it isn't because they are 'shoving' the characters on people. It is because those are the roles those characters play.

Miranda, just as a counterpoint, is not necessarily that LI. Miranda has something she's up to that is more important than her accompanying Shep, no matter how much she likes/loves him. And its one of those things that unless you are a dumb Shep, you would understand. Again, that doesn't mean Liara is needy, or your Shep is needy if you feel you have to chase Miranda down. It just means those characters were designed in different ways.

Just my thoughts. I actually give most of the Characters through the series some credit for being designed very well, and people are sure to have their personal favorites. There are a few failures on the way, but for the most part, the effort was clearly there at least, even in the bad ones.

Okay, ready for counterflame now.  Hit me!

Modifié par Kel Riever, 07 août 2013 - 04:43 .

[rekn2]

Barquiel wrote...

Sorry, but that's absurd ("These statistics are inaccurate because I don't like the numbers"). Yes...I guess all Liara- and Garrus fans play online while at the same time people who prefer Tali play offline, that totally makes sense.

All these BSN/IGN/UGO polls are heavily biased in favor of fans/hardcore/non-casual players, that's the simple truth about it. People who read these forums represent a (very small) minority of the fans who bought and played Mass Effect 3. A vocal minority, certainly, but still a minority. There are millions of players who aren't even registered on BSN. Your average BSN poll has a few hundred participants.

Yes, not everyone plays online. But it is still a much larger sample size than any internet poll, and thus more accurate of the player base as a whole.

Not to mention that the ME3 surveys with the most participants (several thousand) have similar results...

who said anything about not likeing the numbers? when ever you have a "DEFAULT" answer to a question you will never have accurate information...the game does not stop for you. if youre just coming to ME in the 3rd game a lot and i do mean a lot of choices are picked for you. that in and of itself destroys any logic to be had by statistics.

look it up, PHDs agree with me...actually i agree with them because this logic has been around long before i was born.

[Sir DeLoria]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
untried civilian who's still barely older than a child

She's 24, when I got drafted I was 19. I've seen Captains in their very early twenties. Quarians have the same life expectancy as humans, so I don't really get that argument. She also more or less is an advisor, since she has no actual command over any part of the fleet. Otherwise I agree.

Modifié par Necanor, 07 août 2013 - 04:46 .

[TheWerdna]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

jtav wrote...

None of the female LIs are what I'd call "bad"/hard/tough. They all have rather soft centers when tiu get down to it.

I'd call them tough. It's more about how you handle the things that come your way, how you handle issues and problems.

Miranda is an incredibly strong person.

Jack learns to be strong instead of being primal and savage.

Ashley is one of the most determined soldiers I've seen. I despise her and hate her character, but she's got an incredible amount of determination to succeed in the alliance. I acknowledge that.

Tali, for all the crap I give her, has more strength than she lets on in ME3. She's been bumped up to Admiral, rather arbitrarily in my opinion, but she's not losing it. She's having problems dealing with the strain, yes, but for an untrained and untried civilian who's still barely older than a child, she's doing the best she can despite her circumstance.

I think after hanging with Shepard for two games Tali can't exactly be considered a civilian anymore. She kinda has killed a lot of stuff and gone through a lot of crap by that point she's made an admiral

[Kel Riever]

Whoa, Jack would DEFINATELY be designed to be hard, and tough. She changes from ME2 to 3 but that's a logical character change on account of learning how to give a *@$# about something.

But she's pretty much a murderer who got tortured. And it is done appropriately in ME2 as far as I'm concerned.

Bad is different from effin EVIL.  Evil people have no place on Shep's crew and that makes sense for a protagonist, even a renegade.

If you were looking for Evil people, they are pretty much working against you.

Modifié par Kel Riever, 07 août 2013 - 04:48 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

TheWerdna wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

jtav wrote...

None of the female LIs are what I'd call "bad"/hard/tough. They all have rather soft centers when tiu get down to it.

I'd call them tough. It's more about how you handle the things that come your way, how you handle issues and problems.

Miranda is an incredibly strong person.

Jack learns to be strong instead of being primal and savage.

Ashley is one of the most determined soldiers I've seen. I despise her and hate her character, but she's got an incredible amount of determination to succeed in the alliance. I acknowledge that.

Tali, for all the crap I give her, has more strength than she lets on in ME3. She's been bumped up to Admiral, rather arbitrarily in my opinion, but she's not losing it. She's having problems dealing with the strain, yes, but for an untrained and untried civilian who's still barely older than a child, she's doing the best she can despite her circumstance.

I think after hanging with Shepard for two games Tali can't exactly be considered a civilian anymore. She kinda has killed a lot of stuff and gone through a lot of crap by that point she's made an admiral

She hasn't left the engine room for me I'm afraid. Beyond the missions where I have to take her, I've never used her before. Same with Liara. I actually want real people who are excellent and trained tier one combatants on the ground. Tali is a marvelous engineer, but that's really the extent of her utility in my Shepard's opinion. He wants fighters. Killers. Assassins. Spies. Trained personnel, not civilians.

Ditto with Ashley. She's a competent soldier, but she's a bit too common of a soldier without a reasonable idea of her training and skills for her to be desirable on an independent irregular special operations team.

[HellbirdIV]

Liara has Singularity. By merit of that alone she completley outclasses entire squads of elite soldiers.

[Steelcan]

HellbirdIV wrote...

Liara has Singularity. By merit of that alone she completley outclasses entire squads of elite soldiers.

lol

"I expected better from asari commandos"

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Necanor wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
untried civilian who's still barely older than a child

She's 24, when I got drafted I was 19. I've seen Captains in their very early twenties. Quarians have the same life expectancy as humans, so I don't really get that argument. She also more or less is an advisor, since she has no actual command over any part of the fleet. Otherwise I agree.

Speaking as a 24 year old First Lieutenant who's been in since I was 17, and I'll be the first to say that I'm still, relatively speaking, barely older than a kiddo. Especially considering what most other 24 year olds my age are doing. Hell, as an NG Officer, I only play dressup once a month (and I haven't even done that much since sequester hit back in March).

[MassivelyEffective0730]

HellbirdIV wrote...

Liara has Singularity. By merit of that alone she completley outclasses entire squads of elite soldiers.

Hahaha. 

No.

This is non-evidence. Making things float around a black bubble does not make one an elite soldier.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 07 août 2013 - 04:59 .

[Sir DeLoria]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

She hasn't left the engine room for me I'm afraid. Beyond the missions where I have to take her, I've never used her before. Same with Liara. I actually want real people who are excellent and trained tier one combatants on the ground. Tali is a marvelous engineer, but that's really the extent of her utility in my Shepard's opinion. He wants fighters. Killers. Assassins. Spies. Trained personnel, not civilians.

Ditto with Ashley. She's a competent soldier, but she's a bit too common of a soldier without a reasonable idea of her training and skills for her to be desirable on an independent irregular special operations team.

That's personal preference, I haven't gone without Tali in any mission where she was availible, since I play an Infiltrator and her Combat Drones really help me out. She can also defend my Shep quite well with her shotgun, when he's sniping. A combo with Tali and Miranda or Samara is unstoppable in ME2 imo.

[Sir DeLoria]

HellbirdIV wrote...

Liara has Singularity. By merit of that alone she completley outclasses entire squads of elite soldiers.

Singularity sucks most of the time, it's only useful in a few instances. I like Reave or Energy Drain much more.

[Ice Cold J]

[quote]MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

[quote]Ice Cold J wrote...
My two cents on it:

If you romanced Liara, you can easily keep her all the way through.
[/quote]

The game rather shoves you in her direction enough as it is. This is true.

[quote]
If you romanced Ash/Kaidan, you'd be a stronger/more whipped man/woman than I to keep her/him all the way through.
[/quote]
Ashley, yes. I'm too independent and too different in thought process to want to deal with Ashley past ME2 and ME3. In ME1, my Shepard's feelings for her largely stemmed from the pressure of the mission and needing someone to release with; He outright disagree's with just about every opinion she has. Kaidan is a bit more progressive, and I think he's much better at letting things go and not having stupid opinions.

[quote]
If you romanced anyone in the 2nd game after having romanced someone in 1, you're either a player or romanced a human.[/quote]

I only romance a human. I think Xeno-relationships are disgusting personally. Aliens aren't attractive. I'm a live and let live guy, but if I was the only human on Thessia, I'd die a celibate man.

[quote]
If you romanced Miranda, it's failry easy to romance her the rest of the way.[/quote]
It's not necessarily difficult, but it is hard since there are a lot of checks that you have to meet in ME3 to keep her alive. I believe Miranda was meant to be the love interest that dies tragically at near the end. She is what I consider the best and most realistic romance in my opinion. And she is my ideal woman.

[quote]
If you romanced Jack, you've got guts, but the dynamics of the romance change A LOT in ME3.
[/quote]

Not so much guts as it is taste. Jack repulses me.

[quote]
If you romanced Tali, I think it's kind of difficult to keep just because she doesn't show up until halfway through ME3.[/quote]
It's easy to keep her. All you have to do is affirm the relationship and not kill the Quarians (however tempting it is).

She is the definition of fanservice in ME3 though. The only reason I believe she was included as a squadmate was because BW was scared of what pissing off the Talimancers would do. I don't think she should have been a squadmate in ME3.

[quote]
If you romanced Garrus, it's easy to keep all the way through.
[/quote]

Pretty much.

[quote]
If you romanced Thane or Jacob, the writers gave you the shaft.
[/quote]

The same can also be said for Miranda and Jack as well. BW seemed to go out of their way to marginalize the ME2 cast in ME3. I know it's not really the case but it comes off that way. Which is sad considering that they're more of my team and my friends than the ME1 group.

[quote]
If you tried to romance Samara, congrats for reaching for that brass ring, you goody two-shoes!!! (p.s. I did this)
[/quote]

You don't necessarily have to be a goody two-shoes for Samara. It's possible to be good and light without being a total space cadet honor scout.

[quote]
If you tried to romance Kelly, you either have low standards, were totally out of your mind, or just didn't care about an achievement.

jp... Kelly's cute, but due to sever lack of interaction compared to other options, I just don't get it.[/quote]

She's my second in my opinion after Miranda. Way, way back there, but there is is. She's a bit too naive with her idealism (even though I agree with it), but she's also the only person I'd consider a romance with beyond Miranda.

I wish there was a way to kick Traynor off and get Kelly back. Traynor rubs me the wrong way, seeing as she's a total space cadet when it comes to the military (that's twice I've used that phrase now). She needs to get her **** together and find some damn pride and backbone, even if it is for the alliance goons.

[quote]
I'm not gonna talk about Allers, Cortez, or Traynor b/c they were all late options, so that's irrelevant in my discussion.[/quote]

Just as well, Allers is a sloot who has no call or purpose in the game except be the bangable reporter worth nothing, Cortez is alright though I really don't like his pro-alliance/anti-Cerberus views, and I just stated my opinion of Traynor. To add onto it, it's the same with Cortez. I'm a Cerberus fan, and I despise the alliance.

[/quote]

2. I'm referring to how they leave you high and dry when they find you on Horizon again. If I loved someone and found them alive, I'd trust them enough to see what was going on and go with them.

3. Just saying taht, again, to keep a reltiaonship with Ash or Kaidan woiuld be difficult for me because they abandoned you. If you romanced Liara, but also romanced someone in ME2, you're just looking for tail.

4. I'm not really talking about keeping her alive, but rationalizing her romance the rest of the way through.

5. Maybe... but the only reason I didn't was she was too abrasive at the start. I don't like breaking down walls.

6. It's easy mechanic-wise, but difficult logic-emotion wise. Why shouldn't she have beena  squadmate? Just because EDI is available now? Don't get me started on THAT...

7. It actually is different. Thane dies and Jacob is no longer an option. Miranda and Jack are still options for romance in ME3 where the other two are not.

8. Mostly, but you DO have to be paragon, so...

[Kel Riever]

Well, at least when Singularity was awesome, in ME1....

Mass Effect was supposed to create characters who had uses as an RPG. Some of those uses were supposed to be their ability to fight, some were supposed to be specialists etc, etc. Liara is who you take if you need a biotic in ME1...the 'magic user' It isn't like she can't fight, but she's an artillery piece. You get more options with that later, as basicallly your 'spell options' change when you get more biotics in ME2

Tali is actually best used as a squaddie in two circumstances. One is in ME1 if you just want to hang out in your Mako. She actually improves it. If you want to get out, that's a different story. Again, in ME1, though, she's a different character, and is actually pretty awesome with her powers, and they are not duplicated in another squaddie.

That also changes in ME2, when you have more options. Honestly, Tali doesn't show up in a lot of my squads in ME2 until the very last battle, and for the reasons Massively Effective says. It is because you want your soldiers holding the line behind you, that you take Tali (or Mordin) with you personally. I sent Mordin back with the civilians so as a not-very-good line holder, Tali came with me. And Miranda too. Conveniently and cinematically, Tali ended up being the one who almost fell to her death, but got saved by shep.

Literally by ME3, EDI has got more going on with tech than Tali. Problematic, even though I like both characters.

Modifié par Kel Riever, 07 août 2013 - 05:05 .

[Sir DeLoria]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Necanor wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
untried civilian who's still barely older than a child

She's 24, when I got drafted I was 19. I've seen Captains in their very early twenties. Quarians have the same life expectancy as humans, so I don't really get that argument. She also more or less is an advisor, since she has no actual command over any part of the fleet. Otherwise I agree.

Speaking as a 24 year old First Lieutenant who's been in since I was 17, and I'll be the first to say that I'm still, relatively speaking, barely older than a kiddo. Especially considering what most other 24 year olds my age are doing. Hell, as an NG Officer, I only play dressup once a month (and I haven't even done that much since sequester hit back in March).

I knew a guy who became a major with 26.

[HellbirdIV]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

Liara has Singularity. By merit of that alone she completley outclasses entire squads of elite soldiers.

Hahaha. 

No.

This is non-evidence. Making things float around a black bubble does not make one an elite soldier.

It is actually given evidence in the game itself. Liara effortlessly kills two Cerberus troopers (who, according to the fluff, are super soldiers) with a Singularity followed by one shot each to take them down, then one more shot each to execute them.

It's one thing to be biased, another to ignore facts.

Necanor wrote...

Singularity sucks most of the time, it's only useful in a few instances. I like Reave or Energy Drain much more.

Energy Drain is only useful for recovering your own shields, against shielded and synthetic targets Overload is a lot more effective - and it can even stun organics. If anything, Energy Drain is the most useless of these.

Singularity in ME1 and ME3 is completley devastating because it neutralizes an enemy for the entire duration regardless of their defenses in ME1 (including Saren himself!) and in ME3 will disable all minor enemies, stagger protected ones, and rip the shields clean off Guardians.

Combine that with Kaidan and his Reave and Liara's upgraded Pure Biotic passive to reduce her Singularity cooldown by 100% and you can Biotisplode entire armies of Reaper and Cerberus ground forces without ever popping your own head out of cover.

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 07 août 2013 - 05:09 .

[Barquiel]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

Liara has Singularity. By merit of that alone she completley outclasses entire squads of elite soldiers.

Hahaha. 

No.

This is non-evidence. Making things float around a black bubble does not make one an elite soldier.

According to one of the novels, it's almost impossible to form a singularity unless the user is enormously powerful. Lore-wise, Liara is exceptionally powerful with her biotics...whether you like it or not.

[Seboist]

HellbirdIV wrote...

It's that same bull**** that people keep throwing out about how Paragon is only favored because people "blindly pick it". Ever occur to you that people who would just mash through the story without thought would more likely play a game that isn't Mass Effect 3? Christ almighty, people 'round here...

ME's non-choices require thought? Lol.

[rekn2]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

she's also in denial over how the Protheans actually influenced her race, because she can't accept that her people aren't gods gift to the cosmos.

It's a complete reversal of everything the asari believed for 50.000 years, so it is not unreasonable to not really buy into it, not to mention how it doesn't mesh with her views on the Protheans.

Well than, that's her own problem isn't it. It reminds me of those YEC's that reject science, history, and evidence because they think the universe can't possibly be more than 10,000 years old. If she want's to reject history from a guy who lived it, that only makes her look like an idiot.

That said, her denial reminds me of Pro-Cerberus people who seem to conveniently forget that humanity would be a small footnote in the Turian Hierarchy's military logs if not for the intervention of the asari. God's gift to the cosmos, right?

Really? What makes you say that? I think this is a contrarian fallacy.

By the way, it was the Council who intervened in the war. And I seem to recall that humanity fought a lot harder than the Turians expected. I'm stupid enough to think we'd win, but we'd be a lot more than a footnote in the Hierarchy. Everyone else would probably notice when the Turians were gearing up for war.

so not only is she a bad information specialist...shes a bad scientist, too.

[HellbirdIV]

Seboist wrote...

ME's non-choices require thought?

That's kind of my point. I imagine most people pick the Paragon options in ME3 not because they just blindly pick whatever is the top choice, but they pick whatever makes the most sense - and in ME3, the Renegade choices are always crappy.