923 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...


And I think it's absolutely asinine to bring an untrained (from a military context) Asari scientist on a mission (and entire operation) that requires a trained commando in most cases. There's nothing that she can do that no other biotic (all of whom are trained professionals btw) could do better. 

If Shepard had one of those trained professional biotics, maybe. He doesn't, unless he's one himself.

Modifié par AlanC9, 07 août 2013 - 05:45 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

AlanC9 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...


And I think it's absolutely asinine to bring an untrained (from a military context) Asari scientist on a mission (and entire operation) that requires a trained commando in most cases. There's nothing that she can do that no other biotic (all of whom are trained professionals btw) could do better. 

If Shepard had one of those trained professional biotics, maybe. He doesn't, unless he's one himself.

Miranda. Samara. Thane. Wrex. Kaidan. Javik. They're all trained professionals. Did they stop existing at some point?

Jack is technically trained, but she's a bit more raw with her energy.

[Fixers0]

AlanC9 wrote...

If Shepard had one of those trained professional biotics, maybe. He doesn't, unless he's one himself.

Implying that Biotic-voodoo is by any means required or even  helpfull in order to succesfully commit military operations.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Necanor wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
She proves on Thessia that she should not be taken innto a war zone.

But, by that logic, Shepard is also a less then ideal combatant, which actuall makes sense after seeing his/her strategic intellect in the prologue, or the lack thereof.

Shepard doesn't break down in the middle of an invasion.

Neither does Garrus on Palaven.

Hell, Tali even keeps it together on Rannoch.

[rekn2]

Necanor wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
She proves on Thessia that she should not be taken innto a war zone.

But, by that logic, Shepard is also a less then ideal combatant, which actuall makes sense after seeing his/her strategic intellect in the prologue, or the lack thereof.

Shepard doesn't break down in the middle of an invasion.

Neither does Garrus on Palaven.

garrus is highly trained (his strategies, lore-wise, proves it) and dedicated individual (again proven again and again). exactly some one i would take with me into combat

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Fixers0 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

If Shepard had one of those trained professional biotics, maybe. He doesn't, unless he's one himself.

Implying that Biotic-voodoo is by any means required or even  helpfull in order to succesfully commit military operations.

This too. My Shepard doesn't need Biotics to accomplish his mission. He's a master marksman himself

[What a Succulent Ass]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

And I think it's absolutely asinine to bring an untrained (from a military context) Asari scientist on a mission (and entire operation) that requires a trained commando in most

You know, I once pointed out how absurd it is for a military commander to bring civilians (read: Tali and Liara) onto the battlefield, and the entire thread jumped all in my ass for it. I'm still salted about that, because it is ridiculous, no matter how you look at it.

Better calm down, Wally, before you get your rectal resectioned.

[PMC65]

Kel Riever wrote...

I wouldn' t take Grunt.

But I'd take WREX (who is a walking god!) WITH an asari any day, and kill everythang!

Wrex and Liara were my favorite team in ME1 ...

Therum without Wrex was brutal for me against that other krogan battlemaster near the end. I learned my lesson and never did that mission again without him. Ever.

[Sir DeLoria]

Random Jerkface wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

And I think it's absolutely asinine to bring an untrained (from a military context) Asari scientist on a mission (and entire operation) that requires a trained commando in most

You know, I once pointed out how absurd it is for a military commander to bring civilians (read: Tali and Liara) onto the battlefield, and the entire thread jumped all in my ass for it. I'm still salted about that, because it is ridiculous, no matter how you look at it.

Better calm down, Wally, before you get your rectal resectioned.

Tali isn't really a civilian, but then again the Quarian military system is quite complicated. She has extensive weapons training as well as combat tech and gear.

Modifié par Necanor, 07 août 2013 - 06:01 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Steelcan wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

You're using this as an excuse to justify her as being the most badass and elite alien in the galaxy.

No, I'm explaining why bringing her along on missions is a really good idea despite the fact she's not a trained commando.

She proves on Thessia that she should not be taken innto a war zone.

This. I don't like her forced participation in that mission; I didn't take her to Noveria either for obvious reasons. I get that Tali had CQC training on the fleet before her pilgrimage (and could demonstrably take care of herself, though IRL I'd prefer she play a tech/support role, at least until Williams could take some time to evaluate her), but I never saw ME1 Liara as anything but a civilian. Though she's certainly exercised her biotics since then, I've seen nothing in the way of training she's had. I'd have preferred Shiala as a combat squadmate.

The whole "immune system" issue would be another factor to consider before taking Tali on missions, too. As entertaining as she is in the ME3 rachni mission, she has no business being there (as she humorously points out).

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 07 août 2013 - 06:06 .

[Kel Riever]

Well, now we are into a gameplay shortcoming.

If when a game is designed, there isn't a battlefield reason for biotics, why would you even have it in the game in battle?

On the other hand, if you make it the only way to win all your fights, people wouldn't understand why you have guns.

So biotics have to be powerful enough to be useful, as guns do, but neither can be the only way you get through a game. Otherwise, you just did a bunch of programming for nothing. Now me, I like ME1. Because nothing feels terribly awful in getting the job done. I can take Garrus and Wrex and fight my way through, or I can take even Tali and Liara and get a mission done, though it will be harder.

For all of the gameplay ME3 is given credit for, honestly, some of their powers and who has them makes no sense. In gameplay, if Liara is a regular squaddie, she should excel at something that no other biotic you worked with can do. That was supposed to be singularity. But singularity sucks in ME3. Now the only reason to take Liara becomes role-playing or personal affinity, and it gets all screwed up. If a civilian could cause enough damage with their brain in the modern era, a military would deploy them, and then make sure they got proper combat training. Even if they had little time for that training, if that person could blow things up big enough with their brain, it would still happen.

The funny thing is that, used correctly, in multiplayer mode, multiple biotics actually become a great asset, due to biotic exploding stuff. In other words, multiplayer mode makes more tactical sense than the gameplay in SP mode. This should come as no surprise as the people who worked on multiplayer mode did their job a lot better in general than the people who worked on SP mode....

[What a Succulent Ass]

Necanor wrote...

Tali isn't really a civilian, but then again the Quarian military system is quite complicated. She has extensive weapons training as well as combat tech and gear.

...Tali is not part of the quarian military.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Necanor wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

And I think it's absolutely asinine to bring an untrained (from a military context) Asari scientist on a mission (and entire operation) that requires a trained commando in most

You know, I once pointed out how absurd it is for a military commander to bring civilians (read: Tali and Liara) onto the battlefield, and the entire thread jumped all in my ass for it. I'm still salted about that, because it is ridiculous, no matter how you look at it.

Better calm down, Wally, before you get your rectal resectioned.

Tali isn't really a civilian, but then again the Quarian military system is quite complicated. She has extensive weapons training as well as combat tech and gear.

She's a civilian. She's basically made an Admiral out of nothing. Rather shows the ineptitude of Quarian Leadership if someone who's 24 years old with no experience in the military is made one of the 5 Admirals instead of someone who's been working and commanding ships his or her entire life. As for extensive weapons training, I think that's a negative. There's no evidence in game to suggest that.

[o Ventus]

Necanor wrote...

Tali isn't really a civilian,

She really is. 

but then again the Quarian military system is quite complicated.

Not really, from what little is told.

She has extensive weapons training

If by "extensive" you mean only shotguns and pistols, sure. There's a reason Tali isn't a soldier.

as well as combat tech and gear.

So she's just like every other infantryman on the battlefield.

[Sir DeLoria]

Random Jerkface wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Tali isn't really a civilian, but then again the Quarian military system is quite complicated. She has extensive weapons training as well as combat tech and gear.

...Tali is not part of the quarian military.

Until ME3.  

[KaiserShep]

Fixers0 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

If Shepard had one of those trained professional biotics, maybe. He doesn't, unless he's one himself.

Implying that Biotic-voodoo is by any means required or even  helpfull in order to succesfully commit military operations.

Except in the MEU, it may actually be required. The suicide mission, for example, would have been impossible to accomplish without a biotic. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 07 août 2013 - 06:11 .

[Kel Riever]

I actually think people who are trying to argue for Tali and Liara supposedly being tough enough to be in battle are still barking up the wrong tree.

Tali and Liara are supposed to be non-combatants who, for whatever reason, are so powerful (prodigies or whatever) or so specialized in a certain skill set, you are supposed to be taking them along anyway, despite the fact that they are clearly civilians.

Nobody thinks that through much, apparently, whether it is Mass Effect, Star Trek, or whatever the next hot sci fi thing is. Well, cop shows do just as poorly. Civilians are running around all the time in cop TV shows shooting guns accurately and using martial arts.

That still doesn't make it a good excuse.

[DeinonSlayer]

@Massive, there's dialogue in ME2 in her loyalty mission confirming Tali's combat training if you forgo the hug. But yeah, ME1 doesn't specifically mention her qualifications and even she calls her ME3 rank into question. I think they (Xen and Gerrel) thought they could manipulate her after promoting her - she was pretty clearly pro-war back at her trial. The real dishrag among them was Admiral Raan.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 07 août 2013 - 06:12 .

[Sir DeLoria]

o Ventus wrote...

Necanor wrote...
Tali isn't really a civilian,

She really is. 

She has extensive weapons training

If by "extensive" you mean only shotguns and pistols, sure. There's a reason Tali isn't a soldier.

as well as combat tech and gear

So she's just like every other infantryman on the battlefield.

Her combat drones and energy drain aren't what I'd call civilian tech. Her omni-tool is heavily upgraded with military tech hacking and sabotage software. She has shotgun and pistol training(like Wrex) and can handle both just like every other squadmate. She might not be in the Quarian military officially, but she can evidently handle herself very well and is trained well enough.

[HellbirdIV]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Does this prove IT?

It does not disprove that IT is not provedly disproven.

[Fixers0]

KaiserShep wrote...

Except in the MEU, it may actually be required. The suicide mission, for example, would have been impossible to accomplish without a biotic. 

Heavy ordanance and mass increasing  augments will suffice in your example.