923 réponses à ce sujet

[Dunmer of Redoran]

o Ventus wrote...

Aside from the contrived promotion to Admiral, what were the other times Tali is ever made a leader?

The Freedom's Progress mission. The Haestrom mission. Could argue the loyalty mission too, since that's on her shoulders more than Shepard's.

She's not very good at it. And gets stuck with it. And fails pretty badly on both of those occasions.

Every time she interacts with the Fleet in ME2 they give her some huge responsibility she's in no way prepared to handle.

[HellbirdIV]

DaftArbiter wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Aside from the contrived promotion to Admiral, what were the other times Tali is ever made a leader?

The Freedom's Progress mission. The Haestrom mission. Could argue the loyalty mission too, since that's on her shoulders more than Shepard's.

All her missions are catastrophic strategic and tactical failiures, at best phyrric victories if you actually consider the information recovered from Haestrom and the Alarei to be useful, and would have been total losses if not for Shepard's timely intervention in all three cases.

Look, I don't hate Tali, but with that service record I wouldn't put her in charge of waste disposal 'lest she gets innocent sanitation workers killed in torrents of filth. No, she should not be in charge of anyone. For everyone's safety.

[Seboist]

StreetMagic wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Might have to agree on the leadership being thrusted on her. I think they could have done her exile better. Even then, she's given a prominent role. I think it'd be cooler if she somehow met up with Shepard in that scenario, and then came to the Quarians as the exile/outsider.

But that would involve Bioware actually changing more based on your choice than a couple throwaway dialogue lines. We can't have that.

Hopefully one of these days they'll realize it's these (rare) small touches that make people giddy. I think every rpg loves that kind of variation in content.

Unfortunately, like bioware the fanbase by and large doesn't care about proper divergence in ME. Case and point the butthurt over choices all of a sudden "not mattering" when it came ot the endings.

[Sir DeLoria]

HellbirdIV wrote...

DaftArbiter wrote...

o Ventus wrote...
Aside from the contrived promotion to Admiral, what were the other times Tali is ever made a leader?

The Freedom's Progress mission. The Haestrom mission. Could argue the loyalty mission too, since that's on her shoulders more than Shepard's.

All her missions are catastrophic strategic and tactical failiures, at best phyrric victories if you actually consider the information recovered from Haestrom and the Alarei to be useful, and would have been total losses if not for Shepard's timely intervention in all three cases.

Look, I don't hate Tali, but with that service record I wouldn't put her in charge of waste disposal 'lest she gets innocent sanitation workers killed in torrents of filth. No, she should not be in charge of anyone. For everyone's safety.

As much as I love Tali, that's kinda true. She is a terrible leader, a great engineer, a great squadmate, a mechanical genius and a lovely girl, but a terrible leader. She is very emotional, too easily distracted, too inexperienced and too naive to be a good leader. 

[Undead Han]

Necanor wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

DaftArbiter wrote...

o Ventus wrote...
Aside from the contrived promotion to Admiral, what were the other times Tali is ever made a leader?

The Freedom's Progress mission. The Haestrom mission. Could argue the loyalty mission too, since that's on her shoulders more than Shepard's.

All her missions are catastrophic strategic and tactical failiures, at best phyrric victories if you actually consider the information recovered from Haestrom and the Alarei to be useful, and would have been total losses if not for Shepard's timely intervention in all three cases.

Look, I don't hate Tali, but with that service record I wouldn't put her in charge of waste disposal 'lest she gets innocent sanitation workers killed in torrents of filth. No, she should not be in charge of anyone. For everyone's safety.

As much as I love Tali, that's kinda true. She is a terrible leader, a great engineer, a great squadmate, a mechanical genius and a lovely girl, but a terrible leader. She is very emotional, too easily distracted, too inexperienced and too naive to be a good leader. 

To be fair however, the Quarian Admiralty board is quite possibly the most incompetent military high command in the Mass Effect universe. Considering how terrible that bunch is, she might actually have been an improvement. She did at least argue (along with Koris) that attacking the Geth would be a massive strategic blunder that would likely doom them.

[HellbirdIV]

Yeah... The quarians have a long and storied history of really, really, really sucking at anything even remotely military.

[Dunmer of Redoran]

Necanor wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

DaftArbiter wrote...

o Ventus wrote...
Aside from the contrived promotion to Admiral, what were the other times Tali is ever made a leader?

The Freedom's Progress mission. The Haestrom mission. Could argue the loyalty mission too, since that's on her shoulders more than Shepard's.

All her missions are catastrophic strategic and tactical failiures, at best phyrric victories if you actually consider the information recovered from Haestrom and the Alarei to be useful, and would have been total losses if not for Shepard's timely intervention in all three cases.

Look, I don't hate Tali, but with that service record I wouldn't put her in charge of waste disposal 'lest she gets innocent sanitation workers killed in torrents of filth. No, she should not be in charge of anyone. For everyone's safety.

As much as I love Tali, that's kinda true. She is a terrible leader, a great engineer, a great squadmate, a mechanical genius and a lovely girl, but a terrible leader. She is very emotional, too easily distracted, too inexperienced and too naive to be a good leader. 

Exactly. Tali has the incredible CHARACTER FLAWS. Things that make her believable as a person--at least, psychologically. Not like Ash Pollyanna-ing everything and then being like "I DONT TRUST U SHEP LOL" but I digress.

That's actually a strong point for Miranda too. Her physical "perfection" largely works against her. Especially in how she's treated by others.

[iOnlySignIn]

Every squadmate in Mass Effect is a murderer. As is Shepard. They are a team of professional killers.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 05 août 2013 - 04:23 .

[Sir DeLoria]

HellbirdIV wrote...

Yeah... The quarians have a long and storied history of really, really, really sucking at anything even remotely military.

Kal'Reegar? Also, last I checked, Tali was damn good with her shotgun. The Quarians just have a tendency to elect morons as leaders:?

[Modius Prime]

Liara is a crap LI, 'cuz she rubs off as a friend - even if u romance her. Kaidan is also another option and he has better character consistency and is very canonical, IMO. He also has the best powers and is more forgiving compared to Ashley. Ashley never made it off Virmire, at least not in a serious playthrough

[Dunmer of Redoran]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Every squadmate in Mass Effect is a murderer. As is Shepard. They are a team of professional killers.

Is it murder when your victims are all criminals who can only say "I WILL DESTROY YOU~!" ?

[Sir DeLoria]

DaftArbiter wrote...

Necanor wrote...
As much as I love Tali, that's kinda true. She is a terrible leader, a great engineer, a great squadmate, a mechanical genius and a lovely girl, but a terrible leader. She is very emotional, too easily distracted, too inexperienced and too naive to be a good leader. 

Exactly. Tali has the incredible CHARACTER FLAWS. Things that make her believable as a person--at least, psychologically. Not like Ash Pollyanna-ing everything and then being like "I DONT TRUST U SHEP LOL" but I digress.

That's actually a strong point for Miranda too. Her physical "perfection" largely works against her. Especially in how she's treated by others.

Exactly, it really ads to her character and makes her more likeable. You feel sorry for her, because she is put into leadership roles, which completely overburden her. Some people are born leaders, others aren't, the other Quarians just expect much from her, due to her father's accomplishments.

[HellbirdIV]

Necanor wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

Yeah... The quarians have a long and storied history of really, really, really sucking at anything even remotely military.

Kal'Reegar?

You mean the guy who dies if you don't shove him down into cover?

Necanor wrote...

Also, last I checked, Tali was damn good with her shotgun.

She's really not. Tali's strength is in her Tech, not her shooting.

[CronoDragoon]

Sparbiter wrote...

I don't know what to do with this arc. Miranda and Jack are still no go for me on this playthrough because my Shepard is mostly a good guy, so my options are down to remaining loyal or again going with Tali, both good options.

I need to know more about your Shepard. If - as it seems - Liara's devotion to saving Shepard and Tali's devotion during ME2 cancel out, then I think it just comes down to chemistry. What type of good guy is your Shepard? What are his fears? What does he admire in others (besides loyalty)?

I'll give you my rationale for ultimately choosing Tali. Shepard as a paragon, becomes a symbol for himself during the course of the series. He becomes idealized by others - assimilated into the "hero" mythos. He's a walking metaphor. Importantly, he's conscious of this - how his actions affect others, how the galaxy sees him. It puts an incredible strain on him. He can't afford weakness - he can't express doubt to others. He has to imitate what everyone has made of him.

Tali's situation mirrors his, since so much about the quarians is a question of image versus reality, about perception versus nuance. The quarians are vagrants to the galaxy, "suit rats", cast out from galactic society. The process is the same, only sliding in the opposite direction: they've become idealized, too, as their suits, as the people who lost their homeland because they created AI and then got whupped and exiled from their own planet.

Tali's content deals with this larger quarian problem on a more personal level. Haestrom and Freedom's Progress are situations where a role was imposed upon her for which she was ultimately unsuited: she's no leader, despite her lineage as Rael's daughter and despite being one of "the Normandy crew." She fails, she's crushed. Then her loyalty mission, in which she's explicitly turned into a symbol for the quarians' debate over the geth. In which her father used her as an excuse for his experiments. Now it's not just her mask crushing the girl behind it; she has the weight of a society's perception bearing down on her.

Some of this is inseparable from quarian culture. You simply can't function in such a close-knit society without accepting the expectations of others, without assimilating their vision of what you are. Eventually this becomes indistinguishable from "the real you." Is this desirable? What if this was preventable? What if someone was there to keep you grounded - to allow you to process your superego healthily? This is why I like Tali's final Citadel convo in ME3 so much with the turian: she's able to see others' perception of her and internalize them without letting them rot: she knows who she is, and so the perceptions of others are nothing more than another opinion. They won't dominate her.

The difference between Shepard and Tali is largely one of personal strength and influence. She's got a strong will, but it's not enough. She's got some standing in quarian culture, but cannot remove herself from it. Shepard is drawn to her because he sees his own problems reflected, and because he knows he can help her. Tali is drawn to him - initially - because his actions represent everything she can't accomplish as a leader. Eventually, she's drawn to him because she understands what incredible expectations such actions can bring, and how they can weigh on someone's mind. By the end, they each become what they know the other needs to keep them sane. They got to see what was behind each others' damn masks. And hey, if that's still projection, then at least this time it feels pretty damn good.

And that's my overly sentimental drunk 1 AM post of the day.

[Undead Han]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

To be fair however, the Quarian Admiralty board is quite possibly the most incompetent military high command in the Mass Effect universe.

Crushing the geth and winning back their homeworld sounds pretty competent to me. Certainly more than those Alliance and asari who practically let the Reapers walk in and take their planets.

Raan is a moron though, I'll give you that one.

The Quarians were doing no such thing however, they were getting in the process of being defeated by the Geth before Shepard's intervention. Even worse, the Quarians were the only faction (other than the Geth) that accepted that Reapers exist prior to the Reapers invading, yet they commit their forces to a costly and potentially disastrous distraction at the worst possible moment. The decision to go to the war with the Geth when they did, while knowing what the Reapers are, is easily the biggest strategic blunder made by any faction in the series.

As for the Alliance and the Asari Republics, while both aren't without their tactical or strategic blunders, the Alliance formulates the plan that eventually defeats the Reapears (assuming Shepard chooses correctly) and the Asari fleet manages to score a few victories against the Reapers before their home system falls. As such I'd rank their leadership as being more competent than the Quarians.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 05 août 2013 - 04:41 .

[Sir DeLoria]

HellbirdIV wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Kal'Reegar?

You mean the guy who dies if you don't shove him down into cover?

Have you seen him in Full Metal Jacket? Adam Baldwin ftw!

[Steelcan]

@Han, the krogan under Wrex and Cerberus also know the Reapers are coming.

Furthermore had the Reapers not intervened the geth would have been scrap metal (well sooner).

[Steelcan]

Necanor wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Kal'Reegar?

You mean the guy who dies if you don't shove him down into cover?

Have you seen him in Full Metal Jacket? Adam Baldwin ftw!

<_<

[Sir DeLoria]

Steelcan wrote...

Necanor wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Kal'Reegar?

You mean the guy who dies if you don't shove him down into cover?

Have you seen him in Full Metal Jacket? Adam Baldwin ftw!

<_<

What else can I say? The Quarians make terrible frontline soldiers, they just have by far the best voice actors.

[wolfhowwl]

Cthulhu42 wrote...
Besides, at that point the Alliance high command was already dead, remember? They got killed back on Earth after deciding that instead of coming up with their own plan they'd just ask the person they'd locked up for six months (and who apparently thinks that this isn't about tactics anyway).

Ugh, thanks for reminding me of the intro.

It was so bad in so many ways.

[Seboist]

wolfhowwl wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...
Besides, at that point the Alliance high command was already dead, remember? They got killed back on Earth after deciding that instead of coming up with their own plan they'd just ask the person they'd locked up for six months (and who apparently thinks that this isn't about tactics anyway).

Ugh, thanks for reminding me of the intro.

It was so bad in so many ways.

But but... everything was great until the endings!!!!