407 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr.House]

Steelcan wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

That's my estimate for Lair of the Shadow Broker.

I think a loyalty mission or main story mission would be a better example, 30-45min

Loyalty missions where a horrible idea.

Perhaps, but I'm not talking about their purpose in the story, more their time taken to complete and importance to the characters.

Eh I rather use Grimmson as a better example for length and quality.

[spirosz]

Mr.House wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

That's my estimate for Lair of the Shadow Broker.

I think a loyalty mission or main story mission would be a better example, 30-45min

Loyalty missions where a horrible idea.

They were a great idea, where as the structure of the ME2 story itself, was a horrible idea.  

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

That's too bad. You aren't going like every character in every story, and that's really the end of it. Mass Effect is not obligated to change that by virtue of being a video game.

But what about virtue of it being a game where 'choices, decisions, and relationships matter?' as Casey Hudson put it?

[spirosz]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

That's too bad. You aren't going like every character in every story, and that's really the end of it. Mass Effect is not obligated to change that by virtue of being a video game.

But what about virtue of it being a game where 'choices, decisions, and relationships matter?' as Casey Hudson put it?

What I got from that is, don't ever take anything I say seriously, ever. 

Modifié par spirosz, 05 août 2013 - 09:41 .

[Mr.House]

spirosz wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

That's my estimate for Lair of the Shadow Broker.

I think a loyalty mission or main story mission would be a better example, 30-45min

Loyalty missions where a horrible idea.

They were a great idea, where as the structure of the ME2 story itself, was a horrible idea.  

It's a horrible idea because things that should have been conversations are moved into a mission that could have used it's time on better things. Too much focus was put on the LMs and this showed.

[Steelcan]

Mr.House wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

That's my estimate for Lair of the Shadow Broker.

I think a loyalty mission or main story mission would be a better example, 30-45min

Loyalty missions where a horrible idea.

Perhaps, but I'm not talking about their purpose in the story, more their time taken to complete and importance to the characters.

Eh I rather use Grimmson as a better example for length and quality.

I disagree

Some were failable, some had diverse outcomes and impacts on ME3 (somewhat), others eschewed combat entirely.

[Mr.House]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

That's too bad. You aren't going like every character in every story, and that's really the end of it. Mass Effect is not obligated to change that by virtue of being a video game.

But what about virtue of it being a game where 'choices, decisions, and relationships matter?' as Casey Hudson put it?

You beleived him after ME2 where there was alot of railroading with certain characters?

[spirosz]

Mr.House wrote...

spirosz wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

That's my estimate for Lair of the Shadow Broker.

I think a loyalty mission or main story mission would be a better example, 30-45min

Loyalty missions where a horrible idea.

They were a great idea, where as the structure of the ME2 story itself, was a horrible idea.  

It's a horrible idea because things that should have been conversations are moved into a mission that could have used it's time on better things. Too much focus was put on the LMs and this showed.

Which I found to be the best part of the game itself.  Though, I can see the reasons to put less tone on it and try to figure out a way to add those "personal" elements in, without having to resort to those methods and maybe we could of had a better structure for ME2, sadly - who knows with budget and all that jazz, getting stuck in the moments of "awesome".

[David7204]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

That's too bad. You aren't going like every character in every story, and that's really the end of it. Mass Effect is not obligated to change that by virtue of being a video game.

But what about virtue of it being a game where 'choices, decisions, and relationships matter?' as Casey Hudson put it?

'Choices mattering' cannot defy the basic reality that stories cannot function without characters.

[Redbelle]

Mr.House wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

That's my estimate for Lair of the Shadow Broker.

I think a loyalty mission or main story mission would be a better example, 30-45min

Loyalty missions where a horrible idea.

Perhaps, but I'm not talking about their purpose in the story, more their time taken to complete and importance to the characters.

Eh I rather use Grimmson as a better example for length and quality.

You mean where Jack sprung up?

That's one of my favourites. It shows how Jack has matured while maintaining her unique individuality. Jack's story in ME2 was about wanting to lash out at the world and finding some peace to choose not to. ME3 showed what happens after she found a modicum of fufillment while opening up a new passion for her.

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

That's too bad. You aren't going like every character in every story, and that's really the end of it. Mass Effect is not obligated to change that by virtue of being a video game.

But what about virtue of it being a game where 'choices, decisions, and relationships matter?' as Casey Hudson put it?

'Choices mattering' cannot defy the basic reality that stories cannot function without characters.

Just have other characters fill in.  Like what happened if Mordin or Tali died in ME2.

[David7204]

No.

And anyway, that really doesn't do anything to solve the actual problem. You may just hate both the character and their 'replacement.'

Modifié par David7204, 05 août 2013 - 09:45 .

[Steelcan]

Redbelle wrote...

You mean where Jack sprung up?

That's one of my favourites. It shows how Jack has matured while maintaining her unique individuality. Jack's story in ME2 was about wanting to lash out at the world and finding some peace to choose not to. ME3 showed what happens after she found a modicum of fufillment while opening up a new passion for her.

Unless you killed Ahresh in which case it is completely nonsensical

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

No.

Not heroic enough? 

And seriously, look into DA:O, you and Sten were a match made in heaven

Modifié par Steelcan, 05 août 2013 - 09:45 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Mr.House wrote...

spirosz wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

That's my estimate for Lair of the Shadow Broker.

I think a loyalty mission or main story mission would be a better example, 30-45min

Loyalty missions where a horrible idea.

They were a great idea, where as the structure of the ME2 story itself, was a horrible idea.  

It's a horrible idea because things that should have been conversations are moved into a mission that could have used it's time on better things. Too much focus was put on the LMs and this showed.

I think some LM's were unnecessary, though with others, I do think they were framed to be necessary to the story and provided a lot of character development. I loved the idea of building a team that came together despite (or perhaps because of) their diversity for a common cause. ME2 team is Shepard's team in my opinion. In ME1 and ME3, everyone he's stuck with is just circumstance in my opinion. Just take them, they're useful by virtue of giving the enemy somebody else to shoot at.

And that's what I think Mass Effect did best was the characters.

[Mr.House]

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

No.

Not heroic enough? 

And seriously, look into DA:O, you and Sten were a match made in heaven

Don't insult Sten.

[David7204]

It's a stupid idea. I don't need to point out all the myriad reasons why having a 'replacement' for every character in the story is ridiculous.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Mr.House wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

That's too bad. You aren't going like every character in every story, and that's really the end of it. Mass Effect is not obligated to change that by virtue of being a video game.

But what about virtue of it being a game where 'choices, decisions, and relationships matter?' as Casey Hudson put it?

You beleived him after ME2 where there was alot of railroading with certain characters?

Railroading with what characters? I'm not denying, I'm just asking which ones you're referring too.

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

It's a stupid idea. I don't need to point out all the myriad reasons why having a 'replacement' for every character in the story is ridiculous.

You don't need to.  Just have their plot critical functions covered by someone else.  Like Tali and Xen/Raan

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Regarding the loyalty missions, I like having a mission to flesh out each character more, but it took up too much of the game on account of there being so many squadmates. If they cut the more extraneous characters (the DLC squadmates, Grunt, Samara, Jacob, Legion) we could still have had loyalty missions for the remainder without having them take up half the game.

I agree with this.

[David7204]

No. First of all, characters exist to provide more than 'plot critical functions.'

Secondly, some characters are irreplaceable.

Modifié par David7204, 05 août 2013 - 09:50 .

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

No. First of all, characters exist to provide more than 'plot critical functions.'

I'm pretty sure the function of characters is to move the plot along.  That is there whole reason for existing.


As for your edit, like who Liara?  She is already made redundant by Traynor.

Modifié par Steelcan, 05 août 2013 - 09:51 .

[David7204]

Not true in the slightest.

Nearly all friendly side characters in every story in existence could be eliminated without the story significantly changing.

Every squadmate aside from perhaps Liara, Miranda, and EDI would be eliminated. And even they could be compressed.

Modifié par David7204, 05 août 2013 - 09:53 .

[Mr.House]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

That's too bad. You aren't going like every character in every story, and that's really the end of it. Mass Effect is not obligated to change that by virtue of being a video game.

But what about virtue of it being a game where 'choices, decisions, and relationships matter?' as Casey Hudson put it?

You beleived him after ME2 where there was alot of railroading with certain characters?

Railroading with what characters? I'm not denying, I'm just asking which ones you're referring too.

Joker being the best example.