329 réponses à ce sujet

[Shaigunjoe]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...


I never said the catalyst was in ME 1, I said the reapers of ME 1 liked order.  Any reasonable thinker would conclude that reapers liked order, so it should not be surprising that once you meet the catalyst that he likes order too.  Regardless of how you feel about the dialogue option, if you did not realize that chaos/order was a central reaper theme at that point you were not pay attention.

Nope, wrong about randomness, you can have ordered randomness as well, trying to define chaos as randomness just shows your ignorance.  And if reapers were truely not ok with randomness, they would have seeded life as well as tech, but they had no probably with the random evolution of life.  Interestingly, they were okay with it up until evolution became not so random anymore, because it was too hard to predict the future.  Which is why synthesis is the giant FU to the catalyst and his ideals, as nobody really knows whats going to happen.

I think your analogy of dynamical systems is appropriate, (for once!)  As the catalyst does see life as a huge non-linear dynamical system, which at some point cross a bifurication point and he can no longer accuratly predict what will happen.  So he puts in place an open loop  control that consists of a periodic step function. Another indication that they have no problem with randomess because his solution is open loop, which makes it more susceptible to random perturbations.  If he thought randomness was a problem, he would have made a more robust controller.

Yeah that for once comment is really cute considering this whole discussion and how I've clearly described things.  Just because the reapers liked order does not mean that in the end I should tacitly agree that order is best.  And it's because this whole concept and how it plays out is very much like Babylon 5's Chaos and Order but used very badly is part of what is wrong with it.  In Babylon 5, the forces for Chaos and Order were fighting to have Sheridan agree with them that one was better than the other and he rejected them both, saying that the galaxy would find their own way.

Simply put neither chaos nor order is fundamentally bad.  But the kid's version of them clearly defines order as good and chaos as bad.  I disagree.  And he is clearly against randomness since order rules it out.   Why you keep arguing that he doesn't see randomness as a problem when he's against evolution and wants complete order is beyond me.  Again, you are not looking at this as if chaos inserts any form of randomness and by virtue of what it is, it does.  It needn't always do so but it does.  Order completely denies any form of randomness and is all about complete control-whether it's self-control or outside control is of no consequence.  But whatever.  Order can be bad and can be good.  Chaos can be bad and can be good.  It's why I'd never agree with him. 

But your idea is that if the reapers liked order then somehow I should find it more palatable when the kid wants it too.  I don't.  I wanted to kill the reapers.  So, why now would I want to help the kid solve his problem when it's never been my problem?

I don't care if the reapers believed that puppies were bad.  It wouldn't make me think the kid's idea that they were bad was any better.

And I wasn't surprised about chaos and order-I was appalled at how stupidly it was used especially given the great way B5 handled the whole thing.

Where did I say reapers liked order therefore you should like?  I didn't.  I said you shouldn't be surprised that the reapers like order.  Which you were becuase of:

"The whole idea of setting up chaos as necessarily bad is one of the big problems with the ending"

As it has been pretty obvious throughout the trilogy that the reapers thought order was good and chaos was bad, but that should have been an issue from day one, and not just with the ending.  The order/chaos dilemma as presented by the catalyst is completely inline with both the thematic concepts of the reapers and the reaper plot itself.

Order does not deny randomness, otherwise how can we have ordered stochastic systems?  If order denied randomness then it would be impossible for us to parameterize random processes.  If the catalyst hated randomness why did he use a simple open loop control when designing his solution? You just don't understand the difference between chaos and randomness. You just insist they are the same, but really, if they were then you shoud have no probably explaining why the solution wasn't more robust to account for randomness in the galaxy.

Its not like all the options endings embrace order.  Control would be largly dependent on what type of shepard you have, and synthesis is the ultimate chaotic choice because you don't know what will happen, with the outcome being one of either chaos or order or somewhere in between, in which originally that was more so left to the audience to decide.  Destory is the most ordered of the options as you are reverting species to a time that they have been through before.

Modifié par Shaigunjoe, 07 août 2013 - 09:26 .

[Redbelle]

I added a bit more to that post pointing out DA:I has things fan's asked for.

And that Citadel DLC was very popular because it catered to fan whim.

In short. BW proved they can put their finger on the pulse of their consumer's and make them squeal like little girls whose seen new Rodeo Barbie!

Cause cowgirls are awesome!

Now can we have some in ME4.......... pretty please?

[Savage Baird]

Podge 90 wrote...

Well at least OP is saying Destroy is the best ending, I suppose.

And the "hate" you speak of got you the Extended Cut, but don't worry, no need to say thank you.

[Seival]

Refara wrote...

Introducing a new, major character in the last 5 minutes of the story is not good writing.

Let's see...

The Vigil in ME1.
The Legion in ME2.
The Catalyst in ME3.

Bad writing? No, the writing is brilliant and follows regular ME Trilogy pattern just perfectly... And you are just trolling.

[Xamufam]

Seival wrote...

Refara wrote...

Introducing a new, major character in the last 5 minutes of the story is not good writing.

Let's see...

The Vigil in ME1.
The Legion in ME2.
The Catalyst in ME3.

Bad writing? No, the writing is brilliant and follows regular ME Trilogy pattern just perfectly... And you are just trolling.

Vigil & legion did work, but the catalyst contradicted the entire point of me1, by making it stupid & illogical

[Redbelle]

Seival wrote...

Refara wrote...

Introducing a new, major character in the last 5 minutes of the story is not good writing.

Let's see...

The Vigil in ME1.
The Legion in ME2.
The Catalyst in ME3.

Bad writing? No, the writing is brilliant and follows regular ME Trilogy pattern just perfectly... And you are just trolling.

Vigil was not introduced at the last minute in ME1 but provided much needed info on how to continue forward through the game. At which point it was forgotten. Which is the best accolade you can give an info dump character. They do their job and are forgotten while enabling the PC.

The Legion? I assume you mean the Geth who beacme known as Legion? How was Legion introduced in the last 5 minute's? That's putting aside he was a squad mate who carried his role as a squad mate. Not an info dump drone designed to enable forward progress. He was their to increase perspective of what it is to be Geth.

The Catalyst............. You going there? Really? I mean......

You going to hail the character the guy above pointed out as the problem as being.............

.............

............

I'm sorry, what was that list aimed at?

Exactly?

You seem to have just listed random characters who are synthetic and then failed to provide any kind of argument as to why you feel the Catalyst being added in the last 5..... (though usually accepted as ten), minute's is a bad narrative tool as a vehicle to resolve the drama of the narrative.

In other words...............

You've just wasted 5 minutes of my time pointing out that your post says nothing at all.

Grand Admiral Cheesecake smiles upon you human. And wonder's why he doesn't see you at the flesh vats for processing, front door to the icecream store for gooey treats.

[Kel Riever]

Seival wrote...

Refara wrote...

Introducing a new, major character in the last 5 minutes of the story is not good writing.

Let's see...

The Vigil in ME1.
The Legion in ME2.
The Catalyst in ME3.

Bad writing? No, the writing is brilliant and follows regular ME Trilogy pattern just perfectly... And you are just trolling.

Said the troll.

The irony of this post is astounding.

[Argentoid]

Kel Riever wrote...

Seival wrote...

Refara wrote...

Introducing a new, major character in the last 5 minutes of the story is not good writing.

Let's see...

The Vigil in ME1.
The Legion in ME2.
The Catalyst in ME3.

Bad writing? No, the writing is brilliant and follows regular ME Trilogy pattern just perfectly... And you are just trolling.

Said the troll.

The irony of this post is astounding.

I agree. But I don't think she's a troll, I think she really means it.

To sum up, I don't like the Catalyst just because it was introduced in the last 5 minutes, I don't like it because it feels unnecessary. Unlike Vigil, or Legion.

[AlexMBrennan]

The Vigil in ME1.

What did we get from Vigil, exactly? A means of taking over the Citadel, a solution to a problem introduced at the same time (they could just as easily have had Shepard defeat Sarem before he's able to use the relay without changing the overall plot at all so that's not nearly as bad because it's not essential to resolving the plot)

Did his relevation change things? We already know that Reapers are bad, "out there" and trying to kill us all, we already knew about the cycles from Liara so all we get is a little bit more detail: That's the way to do it properly - if the player had reacted with "OMG! Now evertyhing makes sense! This is what happened to Haestrum!" after Catalyst's revelation then it would have worked.

The Legion in ME2.

Is completely irrelevant to the plot. You can leave him switched off (why you can't just leave him behind is beyond me given that you can leave him switched off)

[clarkusdarkus]

Destroy ending is vague but was elaborated upon with EC of which the * hate * got id like to add.....I also didnt care for EDI/Geth/Tali.....But i still didnt expect to be lying under some rubble at the end of the trilogy. But then i thought the game itself was awfull way before the ending masked how crap and tedious it was to play.

Iv'e only completed ME3 once...........it's an ordeal thinking of a 2nd playthrough let alone doing it.

As for the future for ME.....hmmm, Well the ME3 MP team are making it, A Gears of war producer is aboard, EA will still be the puppeteers and Mac will be involved so god knows where this franchise will end up.........But.......New consoles, And open world MMO's seem to be the new thing which means they cannot make the next ME linear containing 1hub etc.....They'll have competition from CD project and Cyberpunk 2077.....They'll either recapture the magic like they did with ME1.....or they'll continue to milk and bastardise the series like Assassins Creed and make it MP > SP oriented.

[Nashtalia]

the ending, it's just so very Depressing given the fact that to Once and For All to completely Destroy the Reapers is my self sacrifice through the Crucible and to leave Liara for eternity and for what's left of her life is just so ever Depressing....



/emotionally attached to the ME universe to the point i am the Shepard i am currently in the ME universe, in fact...the FemShep is as close to me in the factuality of physical and mentality and all that ska-zoo



as i refuse to choose all the other final options in the end but Destroy, just like in someone's signature "I DESTROY them [the Reapers] or they DESTROY the whole of the universe. i have thought Long and Hard about each decision the "pros" and "cons" of each and to my conclusion DESTROY is my final decision.

and quoting from someone "i will not save the universe by sacrificing it's soul" [pro-DESTROY ending choice]

as sad and depressing leaving my Liara, alone and for the rest of her life, just to completely DESTROY a threat for the sake of the safety of the whole Galaxy....saddening.

saddening i say

[and to be honest i am saddened and angered by this]

Modifié par Nashtalia, 08 août 2013 - 01:06 .

[FlamingBoy]

don't put vigil on the same level of the stupid pedestal as the catalyst, such a thing is blasphemy

[In Exile]

OP, I believe the accepted spelling is w-o-r-s-t.

[AlanC9]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

The Legion in ME2.

Is completely irrelevant to the plot. You can leave him switched off (why you can't just leave him behind is beyond me given that you can leave him switched off)

Simple. They only wanted to do one animation sequence of the team leaving the derelict Reaper.

[dreamgazer]

Seival wrote...

The Vigil in ME1.
The Legion in ME2.
The Catalyst in ME3.

Bad writing? No, the writing is brilliant and follows regular ME Trilogy pattern just perfectly... And you are just trolling.

Followed the pattern? Yes.

Brilliant? Negative, captain. 

[in it for the lolz]

Seival wrote...

Refara wrote...

Introducing a new, major character in the last 5 minutes of the story is not good writing.

Let's see...

The Vigil in ME1.
The Legion in ME2.
The Catalyst in ME3.

Bad writing? No, the writing is brilliant and follows regular ME Trilogy pattern just perfectly... And you are just trolling.

 @ Bolded part: .

Looks like Seival the Necron (With it's insane logic) has done it again.

[Seival]

Troxa wrote...

Seival wrote...

Refara wrote...

Introducing a new, major character in the last 5 minutes of the story is not good writing.

Let's see...

The Vigil in ME1.
The Legion in ME2.
The Catalyst in ME3.

Bad writing? No, the writing is brilliant and follows regular ME Trilogy pattern just perfectly... And you are just trolling.

Vigil & legion did work, but the catalyst contradicted the entire point of me1, by making it stupid & illogical

So, the Vigil did work. Why? Because in last 20 minutes of the game it gave us a "space magic virus weapon" against an army of unstoppable ancient warships... OK.

Funny thing - the Legion did work also. Why? Because in last 45 minutes of the game it converted crazy sadistic killers called Geth into the good and reasonable people... OK.

And now to the most interesting part. In the Catalyst we see the hybrid of Vigil and Legion (gives you "space magic solution" plus shows the Reapers in other perspective)... And that actually worked perfectly just like Vigil and Legion in previous parts of the game.



"Bad writing" term (that was so overhyped by the haters) can't be applied to ME3, because the writing is brilliant. The Catalyst fits the story just perfectly, and the story would be boring without it.

Modifié par Seival, 08 août 2013 - 04:22 .

[KaiserShep]

Seival wrote...

So, the Vigil did work. Why? Because in last 20 minutes of the game it gave us a "space magic virus weapon" against an army of unstoppable ancient warships... OK.

This is a lie. Vigil only provides a data file that permits temporary access to the Citadel controls. It has zero effect on the reapers themselves. In fact, the only reason why Sovereign is beaten at all is because it makes itself vulnerable when it assumes control over Saren's augmented corpse in a desperate attempt to stop Shepard. Vigil had nothing to do with this.

Funny thing - the Legion did work also. Why? Because in last 45 minutes of the game it converted crazy sadistic killers called Geth into the good and reasonable people... OK.

Oh look, another lie. The geth were never characterized as "crazy sadistic killers"; they were, however, characterized as rebellious machines that turned on their creators after they attempted to preemptively wipe them out to avoid a potential uprising. Legion changes our perspective on the geth, along with the main character, but more importantly, it does so without changing the nature of the Morning War, or the reasons behind it one iota. It doesn't contradict anything Tali tells us in ME1.

And now to the most interesting part. In the Catalyst we see the hybrid of Vigil and Legion (gives you "space magic solution" plus shows the Reapers in other perspective)... And that actually worked perfectly just like Vigil and Legion in previous parts of the game.

Legion is not comparable to either of these characters, because Legion does not serve as an inextricable resolution to any overarching plot in the trilogy. It's basically your means to establish a bridge between the geth and Quarians, but it isn't necessary to end the conflct. It provides no magic solution. It provides no grand reveal that changes everything we knew about the lore surrounding the geth or anything else. The Catalyst, on the other hand, aims to pull the rug from under the players by attempting to assert that doom is inescapable, despite being able to establish a case against it, and this actually goes to the serious issue with choice as it's established in the game. This is the point where the story punishes you regardless of the path you take, which is then exacerbated by the lack of dialogue options that aim to present any such cases to the Catalyst. Any good sense that existed in the protagonist is siphoned out so that this new premise can be bolstered without question. Suddenly I'm supposed to believe it, despite having absolutely no good reason to.

You can choose to support synthetics, make friends with them, and peacefully resolve a centuries old conflict between them and their creators. You can befriend a machine, and then nurture an intimate relationship between it and another human being. You can also choose to reject the machines. You can sell Legion like he's another piece of hardware, and ultimately wipe out the geth on Rannoch. You can neglect talking to EDI, and discourage Joker from trying to be intimate with her. You can prove the Catalyst right by doing exactly what it says your kind will do, but you can also prove it wrong. Why should both choices lead to the exact same conclusion?

Modifié par KaiserShep, 08 août 2013 - 05:42 .

[Redbelle]

KaiserShep wrote...

Seival wrote...

So, the Vigil did work. Why? Because in last 20 minutes of the game it gave us a "space magic virus weapon" against an army of unstoppable ancient warships... OK.

This is a lie. Vigil only provides a data file that permits temporary access to the Citadel controls. It has zero effect on the reapers themselves. In fact, the only reason why Sovereign is beaten at all is because it makes itself vulnerable when it assumes control over Saren's augmented corpse in a desperate attempt to stop Shepard. Vigil had nothing to do with this.

Funny thing - the Legion did work also. Why? Because in last 45 minutes of the game it converted crazy sadistic killers called Geth into the good and reasonable people... OK.

Oh look, another lie. The geth were never characterized as "crazy sadistic killers"; they were, however, characterized as rebellious machines that turned on their creators after they attempted to preemptively wipe them out to avoid a potential uprising. Legion changes our perspective on the geth, along with the main character, but more importantly, it does so without changing the nature of the Morning War, or the reasons behind it one iota. It doesn't contradict anything Tali tells us in ME1.

And now to the most interesting part. In the Catalyst we see the hybrid of Vigil and Legion (gives you "space magic solution" plus shows the Reapers in other perspective)... And that actually worked perfectly just like Vigil and Legion in previous parts of the game.

Legion is not comparable to either of these characters, because Legion does not serve as an inextricable resolution to any overarching plot in the trilogy. It's basically your means to establish a bridge between the geth and Quarians, but it isn't necessary to end the conflct. It provides no magic solution. It provides no grand reveal that changes everything we knew about the lore surrounding the geth or anything else. The Catalyst, on the other hand, aims to pull the rug from under the players by attempting to assert that doom is inescapable, despite being able to establish a case against it, and this actually goes to the serious issue with choice as it's established in the game. This is the point where the story punishes you regardless of the path you take, which is then exacerbated by the lack of dialogue options that aim to present any such cases to the Catalyst. Any good sense that existed in the protagonist is siphoned out so that this new premise can be bolstered without question. Suddenly I'm supposed to believe it, despite having absolutely no good reason to.

You can choose to support synthetics, make friends with them, and peacefully resolve a centuries old conflict between them and their creators. You can befriend a machine, and then nurture an intimate relationship between it and another human being. You can also choose to reject the machines. You can sell Legion like he's another piece of hardware, and ultimately wipe out the geth on Rannoch. You can neglect talking to EDI, and discourage Joker from trying to be intimate with her. You can prove the Catalyst right by doing exactly what it says your kind will do, but you can also prove it wrong. Why should both choices lead to the exact same conclusion?

Thanks for correcting Seival's incorrect take on event's. (saved me 20 mintues of writing and double checking facts).

Because seriously? Vigil and Legion are the same as the Catalyst?

It's just not true on so many level's, other than they are machines. And that they are machines.......... is not the point of why people don't like the Catalyst.

Modifié par Redbelle, 08 août 2013 - 06:58 .

[Seival]

KaiserShep wrote...

Seival wrote...

So, the Vigil did work. Why? Because in last 20 minutes of the game it gave us a "space magic virus weapon" against an army of unstoppable ancient warships... OK.

This is a lie. Vigil only provides a data file that permits temporary access to the Citadel controls. It has zero effect on the reapers themselves. In fact, the only reason why Sovereign is beaten at all is because it makes itself vulnerable when it assumes control over Saren's augmented corpse in a desperate attempt to stop Shepard. Vigil had nothing to do with this.

Funny thing - the Legion did work also. Why? Because in last 45 minutes of the game it converted crazy sadistic killers called Geth into the good and reasonable people... OK.

Oh look, another lie. The geth were never characterized as "crazy sadistic killers"; they were, however, characterized as rebellious machines that turned on their creators after they attempted to preemptively wipe them out to avoid a potential uprising. Legion changes our perspective on the geth, along with the main character, but more importantly, it does so without changing the nature of the Morning War, or the reasons behind it one iota. It doesn't contradict anything Tali tells us in ME1.

And now to the most interesting part. In the Catalyst we see the hybrid of Vigil and Legion (gives you "space magic solution" plus shows the Reapers in other perspective)... And that actually worked perfectly just like Vigil and Legion in previous parts of the game.

Legion is not comparable to either of these characters, because Legion does not serve as an inextricable resolution to any overarching plot in the trilogy. It's basically your means to establish a bridge between the geth and Quarians, but it isn't necessary to end the conflct. It provides no magic solution. It provides no grand reveal that changes everything we knew about the lore surrounding the geth or anything else. The Catalyst, on the other hand, aims to pull the rug from under the players by attempting to assert that doom is inescapable, despite being able to establish a case against it, and this actually goes to the serious issue with choice as it's established in the game. This is the point where the story punishes you regardless of the path you take, which is then exacerbated by the lack of dialogue options that aim to present any such cases to the Catalyst. Any good sense that existed in the protagonist is siphoned out so that this new premise can be bolstered without question. Suddenly I'm supposed to believe it, despite having absolutely no good reason to.

You can choose to support synthetics, make friends with them, and peacefully resolve a centuries old conflict between them and their creators. You can befriend a machine, and then nurture an intimate relationship between it and another human being. You can also choose to reject the machines. You can sell Legion like he's another piece of hardware, and ultimately wipe out the geth on Rannoch. You can neglect talking to EDI, and discourage Joker from trying to be intimate with her. You can prove the Catalyst right by doing exactly what it says your kind will do, but you can also prove it wrong. Why should both choices lead to the exact same conclusion?

You may say whatever you want, but:

 - Without Vigil's help there would be no way to stop Nazara from summoning the rest of the Reapers.
 - Without Legion's help we would still think that all Geth are just horrible killing machines.
 - Without the Catalyst's help there would be no way to stop the Reapers and no way to know their true nature/motives.

Each part of ME Trilogy has unpredictable reveal in the end that changes perspective on everything you found out before in the story. ME2 and ME3 have even two such reveals - you find out that the Reapers are not pure synthetics just before the final boss-fight in ME2, and you find out that the Reapers were created to protect the organic life on Rannoch (i.e. some time before the Catalyst introduces itself, I want to remind).

There are no illogical or contradicting things in ME Trilogy. You just refuse to accept that fact because you didn't like to make the really hard choice in the end and watch how Shepard dies paying the price.

Modifié par Seival, 08 août 2013 - 07:40 .

[jsadalia]

I actually sort of agree with the OP. It's not great by the standards of books, but by the fairly limited standards of video games it's a good ending.

Also better than Battlestar and Lost...

[KaiserShep]

Seival wrote...

You may say whatever you want, but:

 - Without Vigil's help there would be no way to stop Nazara from summoning the rest of the Reapers.
 - Without Legion's help we would still think that all Geth are just horrible killing machines.
 - Without the Catalyst's help there would be no way to stop the Reapers and no way to know their true nature/motives.

Each part of ME Trilogy has unpredictable reveal in the end that changes perspective on everything you found out before in the story. ME2 and ME3 have even two such reveals - you find out that the Reapers are not pure synthetics just before the final boss-fight in ME2, and you find out that the Reapers were created to protect the organic life on Rannoch (i.e. some time before the Catalyst introduces itself, I want to remind).

There are no illogical or contradicting things in ME Trilogy. You just refuse to accept that fact because you didn't like to make the really hard choice in the end and watch how Shepard dies paying the price.

You basically addressed nothing of what I said. Selective reading won't make your case any stronger.

[adayaday]

Seival wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

Seival wrote...

So, the Vigil did work. Why? Because in last 20 minutes of the game it gave us a "space magic virus weapon" against an army of unstoppable ancient warships... OK.

This is a lie. Vigil only provides a data file that permits temporary access to the Citadel controls. It has zero effect on the reapers themselves. In fact, the only reason why Sovereign is beaten at all is because it makes itself vulnerable when it assumes control over Saren's augmented corpse in a desperate attempt to stop Shepard. Vigil had nothing to do with this.

Funny thing - the Legion did work also. Why? Because in last 45 minutes of the game it converted crazy sadistic killers called Geth into the good and reasonable people... OK.

Oh look, another lie. The geth were never characterized as "crazy sadistic killers"; they were, however, characterized as rebellious machines that turned on their creators after they attempted to preemptively wipe them out to avoid a potential uprising. Legion changes our perspective on the geth, along with the main character, but more importantly, it does so without changing the nature of the Morning War, or the reasons behind it one iota. It doesn't contradict anything Tali tells us in ME1.

And now to the most interesting part. In the Catalyst we see the hybrid of Vigil and Legion (gives you "space magic solution" plus shows the Reapers in other perspective)... And that actually worked perfectly just like Vigil and Legion in previous parts of the game.

Legion is not comparable to either of these characters, because Legion does not serve as an inextricable resolution to any overarching plot in the trilogy. It's basically your means to establish a bridge between the geth and Quarians, but it isn't necessary to end the conflct. It provides no magic solution. It provides no grand reveal that changes everything we knew about the lore surrounding the geth or anything else. The Catalyst, on the other hand, aims to pull the rug from under the players by attempting to assert that doom is inescapable, despite being able to establish a case against it, and this actually goes to the serious issue with choice as it's established in the game. This is the point where the story punishes you regardless of the path you take, which is then exacerbated by the lack of dialogue options that aim to present any such cases to the Catalyst. Any good sense that existed in the protagonist is siphoned out so that this new premise can be bolstered without question. Suddenly I'm supposed to believe it, despite having absolutely no good reason to.

You can choose to support synthetics, make friends with them, and peacefully resolve a centuries old conflict between them and their creators. You can befriend a machine, and then nurture an intimate relationship between it and another human being. You can also choose to reject the machines. You can sell Legion like he's another piece of hardware, and ultimately wipe out the geth on Rannoch. You can neglect talking to EDI, and discourage Joker from trying to be intimate with her. You can prove the Catalyst right by doing exactly what it says your kind will do, but you can also prove it wrong. Why should both choices lead to the exact same conclusion?

You may say whatever you want, but:

 - Without Vigil's help there would be no way to stop Nazara from summoning the rest of the Reapers.
 - Without Legion's help we would still think that all Geth are just horrible killing machines.
 - Without the Catalyst's help there would be no way to stop the Reapers and no way to know their true nature/motives.

Each part of ME Trilogy has unpredictable reveal in the end that changes perspective on everything you found out before in the story. ME2 and ME3 have even two such reveals - you find out that the Reapers are not pure synthetics just before the final boss-fight in ME2, and you find out that the Reapers were created to protect the organic life on Rannoch (i.e. some time before the Catalyst introduces itself, I want to remind).

There are no illogical or contradicting things in ME Trilogy. You just refuse to accept that fact because you didn't like to make the really hard choice in the end and watch how Shepard dies paying the price.

-Vigil is just an info dump,theoretically you can remove it/him and the overall story will remain the same.
-Whatever you think of the geth doesn't effect the story at all.
-let's not get into this argument again,there are enough threads about why the Catalyst suck...

On a side note.Legion is not introduced in the last 5 min,infact you can skip his introduction by selling him,the mission for the reaper IFF just trigger the suicide mission.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Oh Seival...

To live in your fantasy world for 5 minutes...

[dreamgazer]

adayaday wrote...

-Vigil is just an info dump,theoretically you can remove it/him and the overall story will remain the same.

Well, except for the game-changing data packet it provides, and the fact that it explains what the Conduit is and where the prototype relay leads. 

Modifié par dreamgazer, 08 août 2013 - 08:05 .