18 réponses à ce sujet

[Shawntor]

I want him to leave my group.  nuff said.  I'm trying my level best to make that happen.

[David Gaider]

Tell you what.

Next time we put in a male lead, we will make sure to make him the manliest and most stoic creature you could possibly imagine. Just for you. He will be so manly he will suck the body hair right off of John Wayne and make Chuck Norris weep with envy. He will never show a single emotion, not even at his grandmother's funeral, and will never utter a single complaint about your actions... he will simply reach out of the game, slap you across the face and then take over the party.

The rest of the party won't mind, and neither will you... because he will be that awesome. Deep down inside you will resent him, and resent the fact that every NPC in every town the party enters falls in love with him and not with you. But that part of you also knows he deserves that love. Even needs it.

I am certain there is not a single fault that you or anyone could find with such a character.

[David Gaider]

darkshadow136 wrote...
Rofl thats was priceless. But in all seriousness though Alistar is very whiney and sure does cry a lot.

No, he doesn't. Some players are whiny, however, and sure do cry a lot whenever any character dares to express a thought contrary to their own or maybe, I don't know, expresses an emotion. I think this says more about their shallowness than Alistair's whininess.

[David Gaider]

Dahelia wrote...
You did something to his family, people he cares for and what do you expect? Him to praise you and love you?

Of course some people are going to expect that. If they're shallow and not particularly paying attention. I mean, really, the amount of "Me! Me! Me!!" that some players exhibit it's incredibly ironic that they would actually come here and call someone else whiny.

And seeing as we've moved onto spoilers, I'm moving this over to the spoiler forum.

Modifié par David Gaider, 18 janvier 2010 - 09:23 .

[David Gaider]

Skellimancer wrote...
Funny, i thought the writers would be pleased to hear our debates about the story. Guess they want praise or nothing.

Gee. Are those the only options?

And people at work wonder why I come here. Clearly it must be for the heaps of praise and interesting, intellectually stimulating debates that are held.

[David Gaider]

ejoslin wrote...
The writers obviously read these forums, see some people hating the characters, others defending them.  People debating over motives of various NPCs, examining dialogs for hidden meaning, some developing small crushes . . .  I don't think the writers read these forums and think, "Ugh.  We messed up.  Gotta go back to the 2 dimensional characters we used to write."

Edit: Though I could be wrong.  Just a hunch on my part.

Rarely. The only way I would think we did something wrong is if nobody was discussing a character at all. I think all the fuss is fine -- and I never suggested Alistair was particularly mature or consistent in his behavior. Calling him a whiny complainer, however, says a little more about the player than the character. Players have historically called out that phrase regarding any character that questioned them at some point or acted in a way they didn't agree with. That's not going to change the way I think about writing characters, but I do appreciate the irony.

Modifié par David Gaider, 19 janvier 2010 - 02:38 .

[David Gaider]

Creature 1 wrote...
So, no, Alistair is not a hero.  You didn't write him that way.  Since you did not write him as a hero, you cannot expect people to see him as a hero.  I would think that you would be pleased with the results, since a boring character excites no interest in anyone, while a well-written one is more likely to be greatly liked or greatly disliked.  But instead you insult the people who dislike Alistair and offer to give them a Marty Stu.  That is offensive.  

I never claimed that Alistair existed to be liked. Nor am I suggesting that everyone needs to find his behavior mature... as I already stated. Perhaps you should read what I said before puffing yourself up in indignation? Just a thought.

My comments were directed solely at the people who write Alistair off as a "whiny complainer", when he neither whines nor complains as much as he probably has a right to. The human noble player doesn't either, surely, but we're not talking about comparisons here. Those who have legitimate beefs as to why they dislike Alistair I have no issue with -- and hey, it's not like my being unimpressed stops the ones with illegitimate beefs from disliking him anyhow. They could say they hated his nose and OMG wanted him gone NOW! So whatever. You're entitled to your opinion... doesn't mean you can't still be wrong.

And that doesn't mean that I can't chime in with my two cents, either, when I wish to. You can lower your approval at that all you like, I don't have to take you into my party.

Modifié par David Gaider, 19 janvier 2010 - 07:01 .

[David Gaider]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Wouldn't you want to slap the hell out of me if I ask you the question "Have you lost someone you loved" while I know perfectly well what happened to your family?

Not if I remembered that you weren't there when it happened and it might have just been something Duncan mentioned to you... about someone who, at the time, you didn't know at all. I might also recall that you've never had a family, and that losing Duncan was just as important to you as losing my family was to me.

Not that this might change how you feel -- obviously some people don't really care if Alistair has reasons to feel the way he does -- but I thought it deserves to be said.

[David Gaider]

What a Twist wrote...
"Yeah only my entire family got killed in one night, i'm sorry you lost some guy you knew for a year or so, must be hard for you."

Try that out in real life the next time you meet someone who lost someone they've known for only six months but cared about deeply, and tell them that you lost someone you knew much longer and therefore your grief is more valid than theirs. See how that goes.

[David Gaider]

What a Twist wrote...
Its not that he can't be upset about it. And im not saying the writing is bad david. He just seems to go on and on about it at times, which is weird considering the PC pretty much never brings up the whole family slaughtered thing.

How does he "go on about it"? He barely mentions it. And while I get that you wanted to roleplay out your own grief (though for who's benefit I'm not quite sure, but let's assume you wanted to) I'm simply not certain where we arrive at Alistair going "Not duncan, NOOOOOooooo..." -- that's a lot of hyperbole, if you ask me.

Hence the "whiny complainer" thing. Sure he does whine and complain a bit... a bit. But my only observation was that it seems like it only takes once for some people to fall all over themselves in disgust that a character DARED. I mean, really? "What about MY grief? What about ME?"

If that's really your response, hey no problem. But I get to laugh at it.

[David Gaider]

Apophis2412 wrote...
One of the problems people have with Alistair is that he throws a  hissyfit and abandons the Grey Wardens and Ferelden if the player chooses to spare Loghain. He is putting his own personal feelinsg and his desire to see the murderer of Duncan punished above the needs of the entire country.

As I've said in previous threads, I think the only time he does something particularly objectionable is when he's not going to be king and walks anyway when you spare Loghain. At that point the Grey Wardens have become something awful, and he doesn't want any part of it -- saving the world or no. "To hell with the world" is his attitude then, which he will regret in time no doubt.

In most other instances it seems like player dissatisfaction stems from the plot not going the way they want it to go. They use metagame knowledge to complain that they should be able to recruit Loghain and have him redeem himself in death against the Archdemon, and that Alistair should be okay with this even though nobody except Riordan knows at the time about that Final Solution and even Riordan doesn't know the confrontation with the Archdemon will come before the other Grey Wardens in Orlais have a chance to arrive. Recruiting Loghain at the Landsmeet is a possible notion, a way to get a good recruit, but not a life-or-death situation... yet.

And as much as Alistair loved Duncan, there's little doubt in my mind that had Duncan lived there would have been some moments where Duncan might have shattered Alistair's illusions as well. Would Duncan have recruited Loghain? Now there's a thought. And no doubt Alistair would have been just as shattered.

Although it was not out of character for him, it does make him more hated by the fans.

Well, some people do seem to think it's out of character, however... I've actually read people saying "I've been able to boss him around in every other situation, why can't I boss him around NOW?" Which tells me they're thinking less about the character and more about their own needs -- "What about MEeee?" again. Which I have no problem with -- there are a million reasons one might hate Alistair. Some self-awareness about it would be nice, however.

[David Gaider]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I did try that in real life.
A guy was crying about his pet who is dead right in front of a girlfriend of mine whose father passed away a few days before. Who is to say that he didn't care about his pet more than she loved her dad? I can't know. Nonetheless I requested that he either remains silent or he gets out of the room. And it went well.  

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. That "Duncan and all Grey Warden friends=dead pet"? Or that you weren't a jerk for silencing your friend's grief because you thought your other friend's grief was more valid? Even if you believe you weren't, I bet your friend with the dead pet might have felt differently.

[David Gaider]

Apophis2412 wrote...
Was Alistair deluded then? Did he see the Grey Wardens as an order of noble knights? Something straight out of a fairy tale?

He did know about all of hthe gruesome deeds the GW have done in the past. Did he he chose to simply ignore all that? And if so, why? Because the GW were the only ones who treated him like Alistair, instead of the heir to the Theirin line?

I think it is more a case of wishful thinking. The Grey Wardens do have a noble legend, and Alistair was proud to be part of that. It is one thing to know about the hard actions that are required of you, and to intellectually agree with them... and quite another to be faced with the personal consequences of those actions.

It is very easy, I think, to lose respect for Alistair based on how he handles that moment when it occurs. The fact that he expects that his closest friends or lover should back him up rather than shatter his ideals (deserved or not, depending on how you view them) could give you plenty of reason to dislike him. But does he really do those things because he's a whiny baby who likes to complain? Like I said -- that kind of comment says more about the player than about Alistair.

[David Gaider]

Skellimancer wrote...

Ethical Scabs wrote...

Skellimancer, you seem to really enjoy being on the other side of any argument David Gaider is involved in.

Thats because he usually aims his arguments at me!

You give yourself too much credit. Of course there is a comparison to be made between Jory and Alistair -- really, Alistair should not be able to walk away from the Grey Wardens, knowing what he knows. Did I suggest that you should not be able to reach the same conclusion?

If your argument is simply that you should be able to kill him regardless of the circumstance -- well, that hardly seems surprising. Perhaps you should make a mod for it?

[David Gaider]

Maria Caliban wrote...
Now, yes, I understand what happened. He loved Duncan, thought Loghain was a horrible man (he was right), and I seemed to be besmirching the Grey Wardens. It makes sense, but he was still showing a side of his personality that the game had never shown me previously. His behavior was wildly different than what I'd seen before, so it's not surprising that people find it out of character.

This is the part where I'm going to argue with you. Alistair cares very little about himself, and everything about what he sees as his duty. He sees being a Grey Warden as an honor, and it is his duty to avenge Duncan -- something he swore he would do. These are not character traits that came out of nowhere.

At the Landsmeet, suddenly he is confronted with the fact that what he thinks doesn't matter. Duncan is not going to be avenged. Perhaps you force him to become a King, or you take his worst enemy into the order and thus sully it in his mind forever. You -- the person he thought had his back -- suddenly betray him... and this is a character trait that comes out of nowhere?

What did you think  would happen? That he would make a snarky, disparaging remark and let it lie? Well, not this time... sometimes people do surprise you, and in this case finding himself a backbone and taking a stance could come as an unpleasant and inconvenient surprise for some people. But I completely disagree that it comes out of nowhere.

[David Gaider]

What a Twist wrote...
Yeah there are aspects of alistair himself that have to be taken into account, but an option to talk him out of it would have been awesome. He would have to be near +100 and you'd need tier 5, but the option would have been better. I would love to see a mod, but getting the voice acting done and the changes to the story in general would be amazingly hard to do.

And from where I'm coming from, I say there's some things you shouldn't be able to convince a character to do no matter what your approval rating is. In fact, I would say that from Alistair's perspective your high approval means you should be backing him up -- after all the things you've done, couldn't you see it his way just this once? Making characters too malleable, in my opinion, makes them not human.

Though, once again, Alistair feeling the way he does shouldn't necessarily mean you won't be angry or disappointed in him -- or even want him dead. But I would disagree that, in this case, he would ever back down. Stupid as you think his reasons might be, they're his.

The fact that an Alistair doesn't come back later once it becomes apparent that the confrontation in Denerim is going to happen right away before the Orlesian Wardens can arrive -- that's where I personally think Alistair did the clearly wrong thing. In my mind, it would be his foolish pride getting in the way at that point. As someone else said, he let his thirst for vengeance corrupt him in much the way that Loghain had been corrupted -- absolutely true. And intentional.

Perhaps someone might think it was poorly conveyed, I don't know. I'm all too familiar with the inability to control the narrative completely in such a large game, but that was the intent.

[David Gaider]

Maria Caliban wrote...
If you play a good character, this is the only time you see Alistair behave this way. He’s spent the last 70 hours being a laid back and snarky guy who approves of everything you’ve done and willingly follows you because he’s not a decision maker. Then POW, he’s angry and you have to do what he wants or he’s leaving.

I'll point out that you say "if you play a good character". If you play a good character, he does agree with you. You reinforce his belief that the Grey Wardens exist to do good, and consist of good people fighting for what is right. In fact, if you saved both Connor and Isolde at Redcliffe he thinks you've done better than he thought possible. Going into the Landsmeet, he would have assumed that you were there to do what was right -- and so, yes, what happened would have come as a rude shock to him as much as to you. But out of character? Just because Alistair was agreeing with you previously does not mean that it is his character to do so.

[David Gaider]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...
What would Duncan have thought of Eamon's idea to put Alistair forward as King?

He would have probably argued that a Grey Warden has no business being a king -- or a king a Grey Warden. Possibly by then he might have advised that the Grey Wardens leave for Orlais and meet up with the Grey Wardens there -- abandoning Ferelden, as much as it would have pained him to do so.

Or so occurs to me off the top of my head, anyway.

[David Gaider]

ejoslin wrote...
Unless you choose wimpy dialogs, your PC, even after Riorden is rescued, is still Ferelden's ranking Gray Warden and commander of the armies. So whether or not Loghain is spared is NOT Riorden's decision, nor is the decision to execute Alistair. Riorden would be a fool to try to pull a coupe on you.

Err... and how do you come to this notion? Duncan's death makes you a Warden-Commander, suddenly?

Alistair defers to you because he's Alistair -- at least until he has a reason not to. Otherwise you are in charge out of circumstance, not by any means of Grey Warden rank. Whatever is going on it is very much outside of the normal order of things... Riordan doesn't take charge because you seem to be doing just fine, not because he has no rank to pull, if he chooses.

Alistair can die at the Landsmeet, but the reason you don't get to kill him in every instance is twofold: one, he's still a Theirin and not everyone is going to agree with someone claiming that he needs to die as "a Grey Warden thing", and two, because we don't put every option in the game -- so, no, you don't get to the option to kill everyone that you can come up with a reason to.