596 réponses à ce sujet

[Orioncali]

I love Alistair so much. Of course he is whiny and I want to smack him upside the head, but he is too much like my husband... it's creepy (even down to the hair cut, love of cheese and really bad jokes).



All of the characters are so well written, I found myself choosing Logain to see what would happen in the story, and learn what his motivation were for abandoning Cailan (which lets face it while dickish, made alot of sense from his perspective)

[jennamarae]

Orioncali wrote...

I love Alistair so much. Of course he is whiny and I want to smack him upside the head, but he is too much like my husband... it's creepy (even down to the hair cut, love of cheese and really bad jokes).

Whew.. I was about to ask if we were married to the same man till I got to the part that's bolded.

[TyroneTasty]

Skellimancer wrote...

TyroneTasty wrote...

While we're on the topic of whiny characters, I really didn't like how so many of the characters had opinions (whining) regarding what I did. Why couldn't they just agree with me all the time and tell me how great I am? I'm the hero dammit! Listen to me! I mean, I already have a hard enough time with people liking me in the real world, actually no one does because I keep telling them to stop complaining about their problems (like their mom dying, lol, stop whining already, that was a week ago!) so, anyway, it really upsets me that I have to deal with characters in a VIDEO GAME that I have to actually pay attention to and consider their feelings whenever I want to burn a crate full of kittens.

100% agreed.

Seriously though, Sten always approved of what i did, as did Shale.

I apologize, as I clearly fail at sarcasm on the internet, totally my fault.

[Hezulkai]

Bibdy wrote...

He's a pain in the ass. He gets pissed at you regardless of your decision at Redcliffe, he is unable to assess the current situation at the Landsmeet and just 'let it go' (and we're talking about the entire fate of the country here), picking the most inconvenient moment to hit puberty and stand up for himself.

Basically, he's not on board with the 'any means necessary' philosophy of the Grey Wardens. He's got some fanciful idea of these great heroes, doing heroic things for completely good reasons leaving only happiness and bunnies in their wake. He needs a good, old-fashioned slap across the face and a wake-up call.

I worry at these kinds of threads just because it would limit the game, in my opinion, if we standardized all the characters to be whatever vanilla manly man, girly woman, stereotypical, agreeable drone people want.  There are so many, many, many chiches in fantasy writing that it's nice to have people step even a little outside the box.

Modifié par Hezulkai, 19 janvier 2010 - 12:37 .

[ejoslin]

Hezulkai wrote...

Bibdy wrote...

He's a pain in the ass. He gets pissed at you regardless of your decision at Redcliffe, he is unable to assess the current situation at the Landsmeet and just 'let it go' (and we're talking about the entire fate of the country here), picking the most inconvenient moment to hit puberty and stand up for himself.

Basically, he's not on board with the 'any means necessary' philosophy of the Grey Wardens. He's got some fanciful idea of these great heroes, doing heroic things for completely good reasons leaving only happiness and bunnies in their wake. He needs a good, old-fashioned slap across the face and a wake-up call.

I worry at these kinds of threads just because it would limit the game, in my opinion, if we standardized all the characters to be whatever vanilla manly man, girly woman, stereotypical, agreeable drone people want.  There are so many, many, many chiches in fantasy writing that it's nice to have people step even a little outside the box.

The writers obviously read these forums, see some people hating the characters, others defending them.  People debating over motives of various NPCs, examining dialogs for hidden meaning, some developing small crushes . . .  I don't think the writers read these forums and think, "Ugh.  We messed up.  Gotta go back to the 2 dimensional characters we used to write."

Edit: Though I could be wrong.  Just a hunch on my part.

Modifié par ejoslin, 19 janvier 2010 - 12:49 .

[Ilvra]

TyroneTasty wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

TyroneTasty wrote...

While we're on the topic of whiny characters, I really didn't like how so many of the characters had opinions (whining) regarding what I did. Why couldn't they just agree with me all the time and tell me how great I am? I'm the hero dammit! Listen to me! I mean, I already have a hard enough time with people liking me in the real world, actually no one does because I keep telling them to stop complaining about their problems (like their mom dying, lol, stop whining already, that was a week ago!) so, anyway, it really upsets me that I have to deal with characters in a VIDEO GAME that I have to actually pay attention to and consider their feelings whenever I want to burn a crate full of kittens.

100% agreed.

Seriously though, Sten always approved of what i did, as did Shale.

I apologize, as I clearly fail at sarcasm on the internet, totally my fault.

Oh, it wasn't a total fail. I thought it was hilarious.

[Hezulkai]

Bibdy wrote...

Umanix wrote...

Bibdy wrote...

This shows throughout the rest of the game, when you're forced between 2 difficult choices in Redcliffe and attempting to recruit/punish Loghain at the Landsmeet.

Two difficult choices in Redcliffe? Hmmm. I think someone is neglecting to look for other options.

That's not the point. Given those 2 options, I had to pick one and regardless, he gets mad. There's no way to explain to him, or he's got his head too high up in the clouds to see it for himself, standing there right next to me the whole time, that it was necessary.

Its not like he knows about some other magical way to save them both, unless I go trapsing off to the Circle Tower. Off-topic, but I don't think that option should have ever existed, anyway. It escapes that situation too easily. It was a well-written morally ambiguous choice you have to make, completely ruined by the "Save the Universe Before Breakfast" option. Just felt like a huge cop-out. Give me 2 tough choices and that's it! Really turn this game into a grim, gritty world where Grey Wardens really do have to make tough choices and decide between 'moral highground' or 'any means necessary', because the eye should always be on the prize: Get the job done and kill the Archdemon. If you have to stomp the heads of a few bunnies to get there, so be it. At least you saved the damned world!

Interesting that you complain about there being a safe option, then in the same breath complain about consequences for the dirty option.  Why not make the tough choice and then suck up the consequences?  That's the thing about taking the easy, dirty route; it has consequences.  So, Alistair doesn't agree with you, take the rep loss, work it off later if that appeals to you, or don't if it doesn't.

I find working through the difficult choices and consequences has an appeal all its own.  I played one playthrough with no coersion skills.  Wow, you lose so many opportunities.  However it was interesting not to have the easy mode button to get through all the tough stuff.  I personally am glad this game instituted some consequences into the actions.  Remember, if you don't like the consequence, reload the game and find a better way.

[Ilvra]

ejoslin wrote...
"Ugh.  We messed up.  Gotta go back to the 2 dimensional characters we used to write."

Now THAT would make me start a hate thread.

[JBurke]

I like to keep Alistair with me because it leads to the greatest ending you can pick... picking Anora as queen and seeing Alistair's face when you agree to his execution.

[syllogi]

JBurke wrote...

I like to keep Alistair with me because it leads to the greatest ending you can pick... picking Anora as queen and seeing Alistair's face when you agree to his execution.

Hmm, yes, that is extremely clever of you, seeing as Alistair is locked into your party during the Landsmeet.  <_<

[nubbers666]

i now my pc hates him i cant complete the game with alistor as king or my game freaks out

[Phoenix Swordsinger]

David Gaider wrote...

Tell you what.

Next time we put in a male lead, we will make sure to make him the manliest and most stoic creature you could possibly imagine. Just for you. He will be so manly he will suck the body hair right off of John Wayne and make Chuck Norris weep with envy. He will never show a single emotion, not even at his grandmother's funeral, and will never utter a single complaint about your actions... he will simply reach out of the game, slap you across the face and then take over the party.

The rest of the party won't mind, and neither will you... because he will be that awesome. Deep down inside you will resent him, and resent the fact that every NPC in every town the party enters falls in love with him and not with you. But that part of you also knows he deserves that love. Even needs it.

I am certain there is not a single fault that you or anyone could find with such a character.

 Rolling with Laughter.... a minute later... still laughing....

[Phoenix Swordsinger]

Umanix wrote...

Bibdy wrote...

This shows throughout the rest of the game, when you're forced between 2 difficult choices in Redcliffe and attempting to recruit/punish Loghain at the Landsmeet.

Two difficult choices in Redcliffe? Hmmm. I think someone is neglecting to look for other options.

Yes... option 3 always gets high approval from Alistair.

[David Gaider]

ejoslin wrote...
The writers obviously read these forums, see some people hating the characters, others defending them.  People debating over motives of various NPCs, examining dialogs for hidden meaning, some developing small crushes . . .  I don't think the writers read these forums and think, "Ugh.  We messed up.  Gotta go back to the 2 dimensional characters we used to write."

Edit: Though I could be wrong.  Just a hunch on my part.

Rarely. The only way I would think we did something wrong is if nobody was discussing a character at all. I think all the fuss is fine -- and I never suggested Alistair was particularly mature or consistent in his behavior. Calling him a whiny complainer, however, says a little more about the player than the character. Players have historically called out that phrase regarding any character that questioned them at some point or acted in a way they didn't agree with. That's not going to change the way I think about writing characters, but I do appreciate the irony.

Modifié par David Gaider, 19 janvier 2010 - 02:38 .

[melkathi]

Just throwing this in the room:

I was walking down the street today. Radio playing on my mobile. And the DJ (or whatever they have these days (MP4J sounds silly)) dug up from my youth Green Day - Basket Case. A great song. Especially when it reminds you of being 16 years old (or something along that age).

And the lyrics started...


Do you have the time
to listen to me whine

And the first thought that did cross my mind was "Alistair so needs to sing this."

Modifié par melkathi, 19 janvier 2010 - 02:52 .

[Mikka-chan]

People have a very, very, very large definition of 'whiny'. What does Alistair have in common with Jaheria, Valygar, Anomen, and Cernd of Baldur's Gate, Carth, Mission, Juhani of KOTOR (and let's just toss in Disciple of KOTOR2, for the fun of it), Dawn Star of Jade Empire, and Kaiden (whose name I never spell right) of Mass Effect? Honestly, I'm not really sure, but apparently they're all whiny. Yeah. Okay!

I think Alistair's actions in Redcliffe are perfectly understandable. At the Landsmeet, he does come off as if nothing else inconsistent: him refusing to remain in the party with Loghain about, I got, but he could have just went and hung out with the soldiers from Redcliffe and played other parts in the battle then 'No, I'm leaving the Gray Wardens! :E ...Just like Jory! '- paticularly as you *can't* leave the Gray Wardens, the Call Knows Where You Live, after all. (Go waste your life on TV Tropes!)

As for Loghain versus Alistair- I usually stick with Alistair, although I like them both around the same amount. In general, it comes as a proven companion who has stood with me and survived some horrific things and through all kinds of abuse (you can be pretty mean to Alistair, if you so choose) versus a guy whose spent far too long trying to have me killed and not succeeded. My characters usually do the 'Oh, yeah, sure, we'll make Loghain a Gray Warden- ah, you don't like that, Alistair? You'll leave if I do that? Ah, fine, whatever, go stab the traitor, then.'

I know Ali by then. I know what will tug at his heartstrings, what he'll do stupid, what he'll do smart, how to fight with him. All I know about Loghain is that all things considered, he once saved the nation and since then he's made some incredibly stupid choices. Alistair's a success: he's standing in front of Duncan's killer and will easily win the fight. Loghain? He failed at dealing with the country, dealing with the blight, and dealing with my PC, and nothing's worse then a villain who fails. Save for one who succeeds. Hm.

[Tor_pedo]

I wish there was more whining, more alistair, more dialogue, more alistair-nerdrages-over-your-inhumanity. 'Tis all so much fun! and makes the game so much more replayable!
If you want a char with balls of steel and no human emotions go make out with morrigan! Or Sten, as have been suggested As a matter of fact I wish there was a conv. opt. asking "How are you?" And Ali would whine or praise, depending on his day. hee hee. that would be grand. And alot of work for the writers
And I wish he would tell me more about the other Wardens...
But this is a hate thread, no? Well, here's my contribution:
I hate Alistair cus he's blonde! Thats as valid as hating him for being whiny, no?

[melkathi]

What Mikka-chan said



It's not the whining. I doubt anyone seriously midns that he has emotions (well except for Morrigan). But having a character who throughout the game goes on and on about how the best thing to ever happen to him is becomming part of the grey wardens and how the most imporant thing is saving the world from the archdemon, then not only turn his back on the party he felt betrayed him, but on everything else as well, that does not make the character likeable and does not really make the things he said credible. And once his emotions loose credibility, they quickly get labeled as whining.

If Alistair was not in the party but alive, he should show up like the other important npcs during the fight against the archdemon. Since he didn't , he becomes the traitor. When the Archdemon showed itself, everyone else was there to face it, only he was not there because...



One can spin this into a cry wolf scenario: gamers call all characters they don't like whiney! But that does not change the fact that, if players choose to see Loghain as an asset and let him live, Alistair reveals a side of his character that will result in a tremendous negative approval from the player (to use game terms).

[Emma-Lath]

I don't get why everyone thinks Alistair is whinny, sure there are things that he gets really emotional about but on the whole he let you get away with so much crap. I mean he even let you get away with destorying the Urn of Sacred Ashes (there is an approval hit but he doesn't yell at you or anything) and he is fairly religious.

[krisd2]

A character being believable doesn't mean they aren't annoying.

I was disappointed when he wanted me to kill zev and I said fine you do it and he pussed out.

Also he got on Duncan's nerves too I could tell.

[SinYang]

David Gaider wrote...
Rarely. The only way I would think we did something wrong is if nobody was discussing a character at all. I think all the fuss is fine -- and I never suggested Alistair was particularly mature or consistent in his behavior. Calling him a whiny complainer, however, says a little more about the player than the character. Players have historically called out that phrase regarding any character that questioned them at some point or acted in a way they didn't agree with. That's not going to change the way I think about writing characters, but I do appreciate the irony.

Interesting since I only post feedback about what I hate "usually", the bad points of a game - I consider it unconstructive to post character praise threads. Ergo the term, if its not broke dont fix it?

Alistair leaving the party at landsmeet is broke, his Grey warden role wasnt considered enough. As Ser Jory and we know what happened to him, how is alistair different?. If Loghain died from the ritual, what then? He didnt have to like Loghain in a best buddies way, how is morrigan different from loghain?.

Alistair's "whinyness" has alot to do with the way the voice actor expresses certain parts of the dialogue, imo. Not so much the written words.

Incidently I found all other characters apart from Oghren, excellent, well written, well voice acted - perfect.

[Creature 1]

David Gaider wrote...
Rarely. The only way I would think we did something wrong is if nobody was discussing a character at all. I think all the fuss is fine -- and I never suggested Alistair was particularly mature or consistent in his behavior. Calling him a whiny complainer, however, says a little more about the player than the character. Players have historically called out that phrase regarding any character that questioned them at some point or acted in a way they didn't agree with. That's not going to change the way I think about writing characters, but I do appreciate the irony.

Nope.  Sten, Morrigan, Wynn, Zevran, Oghren, and Leliana have all disagreed with my characters.  However, they aren't whiny.  Alistair is.  Embrace the whinyness. 

Modifié par Creature 1, 19 janvier 2010 - 04:43 .

[Jules8445]

Okay.  I can't restrain myself anymore.  lol.  Call me a weak, weak person.

I don't understand why everyone thinks he's such a wimp.  Maybe it's just me, but when you fight with Al, isn't he kicking darkspawn arse every bit as hardcore as anyone else in the party? 

As to immaturity...yeah, he's immature, he's sheltered, and he's terrified of responsibility.  This is all explained though. 

Alistair grew up in a church, surrounded by the equivalent of nuns, he was schooled his entire life into believing that not only would his taking responsibility be a terrible idea, it could endanger his life.  Isolde made his life a living hell from the time he was old enough to remember until he was taken by the Chantry at the ripe old age of 10.  Then all of a sudden he's useful and Eamon decides he should be king.  It's kind of a cluster when you think about it.  I actually feel bad for the guy. 

Alistair feels strongly about things, he was raised in a very black and white world.  You can call him a pansy for backing down, but he never hesitates to let you know how he feels about things.  (If he didn't back down, it would make for a kind of weird game.) 

I've watched through all of the possible endings, and the different outcomes at the landsmeet, and I think that Alistair shows considerable backbone lots of times....and a maturity level that grows as the game goes on. 

I know this is the 'I hate....' thread, and I'm not criticizing anyone for their opinion.   Lots of people love the characters I thoroughly dislike.  I'm just curious where some of the angst comes from on things I thought were pretty cut and dry.  

What I love is that he's enough of a character to inspire this kind of discussion.  As always, Kudos to Bioware!

[Xalena]

^ totally agree with Jules...
I just know from my life experience that "hardening" someone is bad. I had oportunity to "harden" some people in real life and I feel sorry because of that. When you "harden" someone it can happen that they loose something good, I don't know how to express now, sorry. You can't have perfect human. I wish Alistair to stay Alistair no matter of what. He can be wussy **** whiny for his own reason as long as he makes me smile and laugh with that his little flaws and with his unique sense of humor .
I am going to enjoy in his innocent,childish spark of light in this dark world of Dragon Age as long as I can but going to change him no way. Can't lie that his behaviour doesn't bother me at all sometimes but to be honest I am often like that myself aswell. He is actually a very strong person and he stays positive no matter of everything. I think that is important. Just my two sovereigns ^^

Modifié par Xalena, 19 janvier 2010 - 05:25 .

[JBurke]

TeenZombie wrote...
Hmm, yes, that is extremely clever of you, seeing as Alistair is locked into your party during the Landsmeet.  <_<

If you want to get rid of him, that's your chance. You could pick the option of sparing him. I was merely saying I like to keep him with me because of that option. I wasn't aware that you needed your hand held in the explaination of why. If there was an option to get rid of him before it you would lose out on the option of killing him. See, I can use snarky italics like an inane fool as well. :innocent:

Modifié par JBurke, 19 janvier 2010 - 05:20 .