596 réponses à ce sujet

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

To Addai and the others that concurred with her response, firstly please take no offence with what I am about to say but I figured despite my earlier comment that I needed to respond.

You state that the player can only know it will fine sparing and recruiting Loghain due to spoiler knowledge. You are at that point basically stating the player meta-games.

Let me turn that on its head. How do you know everything is going to be ok if you don't spare him, without spoiler knowledge?

Fair dues you say there is plenty of ways to roleplay things without it being an Alistair decision, but your logic to some extent backfires on itself surely? Because on that very first playthrough if you've done really well to keep spoiler free how can you know what will and won't be fine?

How many of you rescued Sten, spared Zevran, allowed the crazy 'vision seeing' warden-stalker Leliana or the squishy hating golem Shale into your party without knowing it would all be ok?

Considering that they all state they will follow you (and I include Loghain in this group at this point), surely that should be enough right?

Thus my initial point still stands that anyone whom says that you can only spare loghain due to meta-gaming knowledge is just as bad as the ones complaining about Alistair being whiny because you are stating your own shallow beliefs on a particular subject.

I just want to clarify something, am not saying you are wrong to have your opinion that 'Loghain must die', I am merely stating you shouldn't be stating that people are metagamers because they allow Loghain to be spared just because they know things will be fine, because the same can easily be said for those that don't spare him.

[Fhaileas]

Xalena wrote...

^ totally agree with Jules...
I just know from my life experience that "hardening" someone is bad. I had oportunity to "harden" some people in real life and I feel sorry because of that. When you "harden" someone it can happen that they loose something good, I don't know how to express now, sorry. You can't have perfect human. I wish Alistair to stay Alistair no matter of what. He can be wussy **** whiny for his own reason as long as he makes me smile and laugh with that his little flaws and with his unique sense of humor .
I am going to enjoy in his innocent,childish spark of light in this dark world of Dragon Age as long as I can but going to change him no way. Can't lie that his behaviour doesn't bother me at all sometimes but to be honest I am often like that myself aswell. He is actually a very strong person and he stays positive no matter of everything. I think that is important. Just my two sovereigns ^^

Well said! I too am among those (few) who chose to stay away from "hardening" Alistair; like you I adore his foibles (annoying on "very" rare occasions though they can be) and his strength emanating from his sense of (relative) duty, his forthrightness, courage and tenacity to persevere through life's trials and tribulations; he was the rock to my character's foundations. He had actual "depth" and I would not want to change any facet of his persona.

Modifié par Fhaileas, 19 janvier 2010 - 06:00 .

[Querne]

Appearantly lots of people are totally lost, if they can´t lean their own tearful face to the shoulder of a Hero Mutant Manly Cyborg T(estosteron)1000 and leave guidance and decisions to him.

I understand, that you are bitterly disappointed with Alistair.



But don´t forget, there´s still Wynne and her bosom!

[Costin_Razvan]

I hate Alistair because he reminded me of some people I used to play WoW with ( as in those very bad players who would get your raid killed and then argue it wasn't their fault. And if you didn't do what they asked, they would cry like little children then leave )



You can guess how much I liked those people and how much I like Alistair. Grief can be understood, and I certainly don't act like a total dick towards Alistair when he cries for lossing Duncan, but I certainly won't ever like him, especially since he is a selfish bastard in the end.

[syllogi]

JBurke wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...
Hmm, yes, that is extremely clever of you, seeing as Alistair is locked into your party during the Landsmeet.  <_<

If you want to get rid of him, that's your chance. You could pick the option of sparing him. I was merely saying I like to keep him with me because of that option. I wasn't aware that you needed your hand held in the explaination of why. If there was an option to get rid of him before it you would lose out on the option of killing him. See, I can use snarky italics like an inane fool as well. :innocent:

LOL, that's nice, that you learned to use italics, next maybe you could learn to respond to posts on the internet without resorting to insults without cause. 

I'm pretty sure everyone in this forum knows the possible outcomes of the Landsmeet...so what was your point?  If you were trying to be clever, you failed.  Sorry you were so offended that I pointed out the obvious, that your post was absurdly smug over something that wasn't that special. 

[Costin_Razvan]

I just want to clarify something, am not saying you are wrong to have your opinion that 'Loghain must die', I am merely stating you shouldn't be stating that people are metagamers because they allow Loghain to be spared just because they know things will be fine, because the same can easily be said for those that don't spare him.

I concur. The only thing I knew before starting the game was that you could spare hm. I didn't know his reasons nor that Alistair would leave. At first, after Ostagar, I seriously thought I would kill him, but when I meet Anora, her words certainly changed my mind.



How much do we know of Loghain prior to meeting Anora anyway? Almost next to squat ( if you aren't metagaming that is ) So ye I trusted her words, not that she gave me any reason not to trust her ( she did after all tell me of the Alienage, and was the first one who said I should be rescued from Fort Drakon )

[errant_knight]

Oh, just what the forum needed. Yet another thread where the same things are said ad nauseum, mostly by the same people. Perhaps there should be a whole section for it, since it seems to go on and on and on and on and on. And on. Of course, that makes it easy. Instead of typing, people can link to their responses in the previous threads. Just a whole list of links.

[Hezulkai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I concur. The only thing I knew before starting the game was that you could spare hm. I didn't know his reasons nor that Alistair would leave. At first, after Ostagar, I seriously thought I would kill him, but when I meet Anora, her words certainly changed my mind.

How much do we know of Loghain prior to meeting Anora anyway? Almost next to squat ( if you aren't metagaming that is ) So ye I trusted her words, not that she gave me any reason not to trust her ( she did after all tell me of the Alienage, and was the first one who said I should be rescued from Fort Drakon )

Depending whom you talk to, you know a fair bit.  Numerous people tell you that he is officially Up To No Good ™.  You have Jowan, who tells you he was hired by Loghain, and Isolde confirms this.  You have the battlefield where you defend Bannorn's guards against Loghain's men.  You have a handful of barkeeps and gossip mongers telling you about his harsh takedown of the rebellious banns, including some talking of impaling the losers on stakes as a lesson.  Zev tells you Loghain hired him.  Any number of guards and templars inform you that Loghain has declared your order traitors and called for your capture and/or death.  You have your own battlefield experience where he left everyone to die, confirmed by Morrigan and Flemmeth, as well as various other scattered survivors.  I believe Berwick tells you Loghain's men hired him to watch Arl Eamon.  You have the word of the messenger outside Orzammar when he refers to Loghain as the 'King'... a rather unusual term for a man who is the regent for the current queen.  You can extend Arl Howe's actions to Loghain if you wish, since he is always at his master's side.  No meta-gaming required, these are the conversations any character can have.

You have at your disposal a number of sources who all confirm that Loghain is not acting in your best interests, and in doing so is also destroying the country.  Now, I could see supporting him in the Landsmeet if you were playing a certain type of character, but impartially you have many, many more reasons to execute him than to save him.

[Costin_Razvan]

Pardon me, I should have typed, but I meant: How much do we know of him as a person, his goals, his intent and all that. Only Anora and Ser Cauthrien know to answer that question properly, for they know him for many years.



All of those you said of, only know Loghain a very little bit, its not something to base a decision upon.

[Giles_Warrior_Champion]

Modifié par Giles_Warrior_Champion, 19 janvier 2010 - 08:14 .

[Vicious]

Outside of metagame, you have two primary people to speak to about Loghain. Alistair and Anora. That's it. Loghain is definetly the face of villainy in the game - the Archdemon sure as hell isn't, as it is a completely impersonal threat.



It's really as simple as that. This game does NOT try too hard to make things into shades of Grey. It literally beats you over the head and shoulders with 'LOGHAIN IS BAD' from the moment you meet him up until the penultimate phase of the game in Denerim.



So with that, its very difficult to NOT side with Alistair. I mean really, the game HALFHEARTEDLY gives Loghain a defense, and in the end it still leaves the choice to you.



I found the whole situation bizarre because:



Alistair knew Duncan for a whole 6 months + origin time [which at least for dwarf origin is at least 9 months] and he FLIPS OUT at the idea of recruiting loghain,



while



Riordan knew Duncan since their joining, MANY YEARS ago, and probably knew many of the wardens at Ostagar, and he's completely OK with recruiting Loghain. He, in fact, suggests it.



There seems to be a big disconnect there. while I would say that Riordan is more consigned to their eventual deaths than Alistair is and accepts things for what they are, this obviously does not jive with some developer beliefs that apparently Alistair is perfectly right and correct in his decisions.



I don't know. the more i think about the whole scene the less it all makes sense.

[SorrowAndJoy7]

I think a characters ability to bug you is just as good in storytelling as a characters ability to amuse you or make you all warm and fuzzy. I don't per se like allistair, but I don't think that's a bad thing... It would be stupid in such an amazing story, where you have so many choices, to think you, your character, or your companions, will all get along. So to me there is nothing wrong with Allistair if he is a "whiny complainer". I don't really find him a whiny complainer as, he's just a bit too goody two shoes, and preachy at times. That isn't to say I don't think those things make him a good character, it's those things that make him a good character while annoying my own.

Sten is the biggest disagreeing judgemental character ever early on, but he's one of my favorites in any story, and it's the biggest reason I like him as a character and as a "person".

Modifié par SorrowAndJoy7, 19 janvier 2010 - 08:42 .

[ph1ldo]

David Gaider wrote...

Tell you what.

Next time we put in a male lead, we will make sure to make him the manliest and most stoic creature you could possibly imagine. Just for you. He will be so manly he will suck the body hair right off of John Wayne and make Chuck Norris weep with envy. He will never show a single emotion, not even at his grandmother's funeral, and will never utter a single complaint about your actions... he will simply reach out of the game, slap you across the face and then take over the party.

The rest of the party won't mind, and neither will you... because he will be that awesome. Deep down inside you will resent him, and resent the fact that every NPC in every town the party enters falls in love with him and not with you. But that part of you also knows he deserves that love. Even needs it.

I am certain there is not a single fault that you or anyone could find with such a character.

could you call him Dr. Awesome?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Makers breath! ANOTHER thread?????

[melkathi]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Makers breath! ANOTHER thread?????

Yes. And to make things worse, David Gaider posted in it, which made it ok :whistle:

I think a moderator should sit down at some point and join all the Alistair love/hate threads into one gigantic one, all the Loghain love hate threads into another and then see which one is larger.

[Sabriana]

melkathi wrote...

I think a moderator should sit down at some point and join all the Alistair love/hate threads into one gigantic one, all the Loghain love hate threads into another and then see which one is larger.

Rofl. What a splendid idea. Seconded!

Re. Redcliffe arc. My PC did try to leave before the big fight, and a very upset Tomas begged her not to.
Isolde, when my PC tells her she has to think things over, responds: "But hurry, we don't know what the demon will do." If thinking things over puts the village/castle in danger, how much more pronounced is the danger if my PC leaves for days? Two days travel time along (back and forth), not to mention that she doesn't know how long it will take to get the mages ready for the ritual.

Alistair suggests killing Connor

Isolde volunteers.
The same Isolde that, as told by the horses mouth, namely Alistair, was solely to blame for him being dumped into the Chantry at age 10. The same Isolde who made sure that the castle didn't feel like a home for Alistair anymore. Yes, that Isolde that despised Alistair - according to Alistair himself.

The PC gets an option to ask Alistair "This is not about me, this is about Eamon and you, isn't it?" He agrees. He wanted Isolde spared because Eamon loves her. Pishtosh! Eamon is a heck of a lot more reasonable about my PC's decision than Alistair. Yeah, the husband Eamon, the one who loved her to the point of chucking out Alistair and gifting him to the Chantry.

Alistair as a romance? No, thank you. I tried that once, and was terribly disappointed. I despised him afterward for many reasons, which I already stated elsewhere. In my 2nd playthrough, he stayed at camp, keeping Morrigan company. In my current playthrough, he comes with my PC now and then, and they are friends. As a friend he is a lot more tolerable, mainly because my PC doesn't have to walk on eggshells around him, making sure not to hurt his feelings.
He's a friend, he's entitled to his opinions, but if my PC disagrees, she tells him so. His rate hovers around the 80 mark, which is good enough.

[nubbers666]

JBurke wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...
Hmm, yes, that is extremely clever of you, seeing as Alistair is locked into your party during the Landsmeet.  <_<

If you want to get rid of him, that's your chance. You could pick the option of sparing him. I was merely saying I like to keep him with me because of that option. I wasn't aware that you needed your hand held in the explaination of why. If there was an option to get rid of him before it you would lose out on the option of killing him. See, I can use snarky italics like an inane fool as well. :innocent:

i just keep him wit me for that option i make him fall in love wit me then have him excuted lmao:D

[Erakleitos]

Alistair is a very human character, i think it's the most human character i ever saw in a video game. I can think about tons of people i know who are like him, insecure about his life, about what to do and who wants to be guided by others. I think Bioware writers did a good job with him.



What instead looks really fictional is that at some point you can "harden" Alistair... people never change imo. It's too much more comfortable being a whiner (no responsibility, it's always someone else's fault...) than being a Duncan let's say.



On a side note, usually we tend to hate in others what we don't like about ourselves....

[Bhatair]

I like when people whine about how whiny Alistair is

[Lotion Soronarr]

melkathi wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Makers breath! ANOTHER thread?????

Yes. And to make things worse, David Gaider posted in it, which made it ok :whistle:

I think a moderator should sit down at some point and join all the Alistair love/hate threads into one gigantic one, all the Loghain love hate threads into another and then see which one is larger.

I just look it over and found his post.
It was worth it.

David himself burns all those whiney Al haters:P I'm tempted to suiggy his responses.

Ya her that you pansies? Al not being whiney is CANON!!!! Go frack yourself!

Skellimancer wrote...
There should have been no rescue option, other than the blood magic.

WHY? I fail to see any reason behind it. You think that EVERY quest can have only equally bad outcomes? Actually being able tpo save everyone once in a while is a good thing.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Bibdy wrote...
So you subscribe to the Grey Wardens being majestic heroes of awesomeness, too? None of that is the point. 2 facts remain:

1) The Darkspawn are coming...NOW
2) You need Grey Wardens, BIG TIME

Alistair doesn't care. Like I said, this doesn't ultimately make him a bad person, of course not, but what it does make him is a sad excuse for a Grey Warden and I can't justifiably keep that idiot around to the end of the game without pretending like I feel the same way. It kinda irritates me that I have to break character just to keep him in my party.

You blindness here is incredible.

1. Alistair does case, but he considers keeping Loghain OUT of the GW's his DUTY. And, being a GW is a great honor, something he feels Loghain doesn't deserve. This is traight from DG's mouth.

2. Sparing Loghain is not needed to stop the Blight.

3. Alistiars wants the GW's to be better than they are. I can only respect him for that.
You cannot seem to grasp that AL has his own view on what a GW should be like, and he belives in it fully. Calling him an idiot for that, because you think your view is so incredibly correct and right that the very universe twists and bends under it's weight...well, it's idiotic.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 19 janvier 2010 - 12:11 .

[Shawntor]

David Gaider wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
The writers obviously read these forums, see some people hating the characters, others defending them.  People debating over motives of various NPCs, examining dialogs for hidden meaning, some developing small crushes . . .  I don't think the writers read these forums and think, "Ugh.  We messed up.  Gotta go back to the 2 dimensional characters we used to write."

Edit: Though I could be wrong.  Just a hunch on my part.

Rarely. The only way I would think we did something wrong is if nobody was discussing a character at all. I think all the fuss is fine -- and I never suggested Alistair was particularly mature or consistent in his behavior. Calling him a whiny complainer, however, says a little more about the player than the character. Players have historically called out that phrase regarding any character that questioned them at some point or acted in a way they didn't agree with. That's not going to change the way I think about writing characters, but I do appreciate the irony.

SO, who's whining now?  YOU.  I don't recall divulging particulars about WHY I had this opinion of Allistair.  You assume too much and fill that part in for me i suppose.  I don't care for his party banter, or comments he interjects throughout npc interactions.  I couldn't care less if he disagrees with me when I make choices.  All I know is that I find that I'm saying to myself  "god shut up allistair please" many times throughout the game.  His reactions are all over the map.  You cannot tell one conversation to the next if he's going to like what you say or hate it, even when you "THINK" you're joking around he goes off the deep end. 

Way to do business BIOWARE, having your game devs personally attack posters who have opinions they do not care for.  I was unaware that a psychology degree was a requisite for writing on a computer game.  Thank you for my analysis.  Will you be sending me a bill?

It's fairly obvious that this subject is old to me now.  I notice the people complaining about "another hate Allistair" thread have been here far longer than I have, also I was unaware that there were so many, or that it was such a touchy subject.  Perhaps they forget that not everyone has been playing this for months, and to newer people this is not old hack.  It might also indicate that I'm not alone in my thinking wouldn't it?  Those complainers have the option of not bothering to read these topics....It's very simple, just skip over them.  Why bother to read and comment in threads that are clearly old news to you?  If it's always "more of the same" to you, I see no need to even look.

[Lotion Soronarr]

"Personally attack". More like correct a incorrect statement.

[Costin_Razvan]

Just because you think something of Alistair doesn't mean we all do. Even David Gaider admits he isn't that mature.

[Costin_Razvan]

Just because you think something of Alistair doesn't mean we all do. and we have our reasons which are either good or not ( get that into your thick skull ). Even David Gaider admits he isn't that mature.

You don't see me trying to force my opninions of Alistair upon others ( as you do ). I perfectly well understand why some people ( especially girls ) like him.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 19 janvier 2010 - 12:13 .