596 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

An Alistair hate . love thread ----> leads to Loghain love / hate.

Loghain love / hate threads -----> leads to Alistair love / hate.

Ostagar thread -----> Loghain hate / love thread ------> Alistair love / hate thread.

Any thread -----> Alistair love / hate thread ------> Loghain hate / love thread.

Interesting pattern.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 janvier 2010 - 12:16 .

[Sabriana]

Agreeing with the creator of a product is definitely not imparative, or required, nor is it lore, set in stone, or *must* be accepted. A back-story is cannon, such as the books and unbiased codex. Personal impressions, views, and opinions are not.

I can look at a painting and find it atrocious, while the person next to me finds it marvelous. Both views are valid, and the painter/creator will not change that by stating her/his opinion on his creation.

Now, if said painter/creator will tell both of us the backstory of said painting, we would likely both accept that, however, it would/might not change my position that the painting is atrocious, nor wouldmight it change the other person's position that the painting is marvelous.

A creator arguing for her/his creation is equally acceptable as the detractors opposite opinion of the same creation.

Edited for clarity

Modifié par Sabriana, 19 janvier 2010 - 12:36 .

[Daigowedd]

If people think Alistair is whiny I would hate to think what they think about Carth and Anomen where that criticism is actually valid. Alistair gets upset like once and it's when he's mourning for someone. I guess manly men don't care about their comrades dying!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Daigowedd wrote...

If people think Alistair is whiny I would hate to think what they think about Carth and Anomen where that criticism is actually valid. Alistair gets upset like once and it's when he's mourning for someone. I guess manly men don't care about their comrades dying!

It's not that. Naturally, he could be sad about it. But that doesn't mean he should be on the verge of crying everytime we mention Duncan.
From RP perspective, my HN had his whole family killed in front of his eyes and yet he moves on to do what he is supposed to do. He is going to be very annoyed at Alistair crying about a person he knew for only 6 months. And even more annoyed by him asking the stupid question "Have you lost someone?". 

I do not hate Alistair. But from that point on (which is failry early in the game), I had virtually no respect for the guy.
 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 janvier 2010 - 12:58 .

[Skellimancer]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...



From RP perspective, my HN had his whole family killed in front of his eyes and yet he moves on to do what he is supposed to do. He is going to very annoyed at Alistair crying about a person he knew for only 6 months. And even more annoyed by him asking the stupid question "Have you lost someone?". 

Exactly.

Alistair is a whinger. All he cares about are his own feelings.

[Kohaku]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

An Alistair hate . love thread ----> leads to Loghain love / hate.

Loghain love / hate threads -----> leads to Alistair love / hate.

Ostagar thread -----> Loghain hate / love thread ------> Alistair love / hate thread.

Any thread -----> Alistair love / hate thread ------> Loghain hate / love thread.

Interesting pattern.

But isn't that what this board is about? Rehashes of the same thing? We can't even stay on topic in any thread without it ending up like this.

[Hyper Cutter]

I'm mostly indifferent to Alistair.



Not fond of the stranglehold he's got on the fanbase, though...

[velimirius]

i was happy when he died at the end of my story

[Xandurpein]

Excerpts from a thefreedictionary.com



whiny: 1. high-pitched and plaintive, 2. peevish, complaining.



So, the question is do you think that Alistair complains more than other companions about things, considering the fact that all companions will complain more or less depending on if you go with their belief's or not. Or do you feel that Alistair is more prone than other companions to use a particularily plaintive voice when he utters his complaints. If you do, feel free to call him whiny, if not find another word to describe what you don't like.



Personally I can find both good and bad elements in his personality, and a pretty one-dimensional and boring character it would be otherwise. I think many I end up treating him as a sort of adopted little brother, and there is noting wrong with that really. I am the star anyway, right? Immature, sure, but not whiny, at least not with the definition I found in the dictionary.

[Skellimancer]

They should have added whining options for players characters.

Alistair " So can we do this? go to redcliffe and those other places and build an army?"

My HNF: "OMFG I JUST BEEN AT DEATHS DOOR AND YOU WANT ME TO GO WALKING FOR DAYS AROUND FERELDEN! ALL YOU THINK ABOUT IS YOURSELF! MY FAMILY JUST DIIIIIEEEEDD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

HNF Disapproves -22

Alistair on forums: "WTF, BIOWARE! HNF is such a *^@%ing whiner!"

Modifié par Skellimancer, 19 janvier 2010 - 01:50 .

[Inzhuna]

But of course, threads like 'I hate Alistair!!!!11oneoneeleven' are nothing but a praise for Mr Gaider's talent. Seriously, think about it - this is a fictional character from computer game eliciting such a strong passionate emotion as hatred from people.

[Lotion Soronarr]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
It's not that. Naturally, he could be sad about it. But that doesn't mean he should be on the verge of crying everytime we mention Duncan.
From RP perspective, my HN had his whole family killed in front of his eyes and yet he moves on to do what he is supposed to do. He is going to be very annoyed at Alistair crying about a person he knew for only 6 months. And even more annoyed by him asking the stupid question "Have you lost someone?". 

I do not hate Alistair. But from that point on (which is failry early in the game), I had virtually no respect for the guy.

I'ts a bit hard to roleplay heart-wrenching sorrow.
I mena, if your REAL family was butchered in front of your eyes, would you take it even remotely as good as the character your'e roleplayig?

It's so easy to say "I wouldn't do that". It's so much different when it actually happens to you.


Lets also forget than not all people are equal and do not react equally.
Some will cry, some will not. That doesn't make them whiny.

I was hearbroken when my grandmother died. On her funeral I didn't cry. I wanted to, but for some reason couldn't. Maybe my tear ducts were dry that day. I dunno.
When we had to put my dog to sleep I barely contained my tears. For months I got all misty-eyed whenver I was thinking of him.

Threr really should be an option for hte PC to lie down in a fetal position and sob. It's a REALISTIC option.

[Creature 1]

Mr. Gaider: 

The problem with Alistair is that he is essentially a nice normal guy that got dumped into a situation that he is not prepared for.  He's over his head.  You said yourself he is immature and inconsistent.  He's immature due to youth, being raised in the Chantry for the past decade, and having no real life experience.  He's inconsistent because he's written as a nice, naive guy and thrown into a situation where the decisions you have to make are not always the nicest ones, and for plot reasons he has to ultimately accede to your character's wishes.  The result is a character that is a little frustrating for a lot of people.  Add in some pet peeves like his inability to keep track of his socks and cajoling of Wynn to mend his shirt when he could do it himself, and you're going to have a lot of people who are annoyed by him. 

Plus in addition to the above normal flaws, he has an unreasonable hero worship of Duncan.  If Duncan were to show up in Redcliffe with the party, I think he would decide that the fastest solution to the problem was to murder knife Connor.  From what we've seen in game of Alistair's views on Duncan and his actions, Alistair would probably compliment Duncan on his knife technique.  But if the PC does the same thing, Alistair flips out.  From the point of view of half of my characters, Duncan is a opportunistic louse who does the minimum necessary to help them (human noble and city elf), and only then so he can loop them into the Gray Wardens without first letting them know what they're getting into.  The other half (mage) resent him because he held back vital information.  Alistair is there, he knows that Jory was not told of the dangers ahead of time and murdered when he tried to back out, and he knows that you also didn't know of the dangers and did not know you were truncating your lifespan and dooming yourself to either slow death from insanity or suicide by darkspawn.  Yet all of this is ok with Alistair because he lubs Duncan who can do no wrong. 

Then add in Alistair's immature attitude towards romance--"Gotta get laid before I die!  Ok, got laid, now must dump girlfriend for duty's sake!"  A good portion of the people who dislike Alistair dislike him because he publicly dumped their character and they didn't see it coming.  My mage who romanced him was saved this ending because she saw he'd make a horrible king and let Anora rule instead.  I started out the game liking Alistair and she romanced him, but by the end I had lost a good deal of respect for him, and felt like my mage was more mothering him than standing as an equal partner. 

Then there's the situation with Loghain.  I've never conscripted him, although I'm sure I will sometime.  I just don't trust him.  But I would think that after all my character and Alistair had been through he would trust me more than that.  I wouldn't cheat him out of revenge, just ask him to delay it a bit--like Duncan has asked my characters to do.  But he doesn't even attempt to figure out what you have in mind if you spare Loghain, he immediately takes rash action.  

So, no, Alistair is not a hero.  You didn't write him that way.  Since you did not write him as a hero, you cannot expect people to see him as a hero.  I would think that you would be pleased with the results, since a boring character excites no interest in anyone, while a well-written one is more likely to be greatly liked or greatly disliked.  But instead you insult the people who dislike Alistair and offer to give them a Marty Stu.  That is offensive. 

Creature 1 disapproves (-10). 

[Chas1024]

You Alistair fan boys/girls obviously don't understand the sacred bond between a warrior and their war dog. He tries to torment my dog, that is just unacceptable. You can disagree with my decisions, that comes with the burden of leadership. So you don't like my girl friend, well I never shared your high opinion of that Duncan guy. But touch my dog and you die.

[melkathi]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


You blindness here is incredible.

1. Alistair does case, but he considers keeping Loghain OUT of the GW's his DUTY. And, being a GW is a great honor, something he feels Loghain doesn't deserve. This is traight from DG's mouth.

Alistair's sence of duty should never be taken as an argument in his favour, since he walks out on the GWs and the fight againt the blight. I know what DG said, I understand Alistair's actions, but they do not paint him in any better a light. In the end he is the one who fails to live up to his duty - and thus ends as a drunken wrech.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

2. Sparing Loghain is not needed to stop the Blight.

Sounds familiar. I heard that line before. Ah yes, Loghain said that about the GWs

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

3. Alistiars wants the GW's to be better than they are. I can only respect him for that.
You cannot seem to grasp that AL has his own view on what a GW should be like, and he belives in it fully. Calling him an idiot for that, because you think your view is so incredibly correct and right that the very universe twists and bends under it's weight...well, it's idiotic.

Alistair has his own views, which have been wrong from the start. He saw how Jory was murdered or executed, whichever word you prefer. He heard all the speeches from Duncan. He knows what has happened to your character. He has all the information to realize that the GWs are not as nice as he'd like them to be.
He only takes action against this though in the very end. That is unfair - you can't just leave decissions to others your whole life and then snap. Well you can, it is normal human behaviour and one reason why divorces happen - one party keeps it all inside and then brings out all the frustration and anger all at once. But as justified as the person may be, it remains unfair to the other person who had until then been shouldering all the responsibility.
That's what Alistair does: he rages about a decission which seems to be pretty much standard practice for the wardens. He had kept his eyes shut to the truth and only opens them the moment this truth is in direct opposition to a personal goal of his.
He never wanted the wardens to be better than what they are, as you claim. He pretended the wardens were better than they are. There is a difference. Had he wanted them to be better, he would have adviced Duncan to let Jory drink first, seeing how he was the weakest link. Maybe he would have adviced Duncan not to take Jory into the Wardens at all, as it is obvious Jory had not realized that he would not be able to return to Helena and their baby in Highever. He knowingly allowed his hero Duncan to lead a young man on, who's only goal was to provide for his young family. He let a young father take part in a ritual that was likely to kill him and that would have drastically shortened his lifespan if he survived. No, if he was the knight in shining armor, he would have had a serious argument with Duncan and most likely if Duncan didn't listen, given Jory a hint to leave Ostagar before the Joining.
But he didn't, because of blind hero worship and because, let's face it, Alistair did not care. He never really cared who lives or dies... up until the moment he wants to kill someone. Suddenly he was no longer able to pretend, as pretending would give up something he wanted and needed: revenge. Even if he'd like to call it justice.

Is someone an idiot for wanting to see the world as a better place than it is? Perhaps not.
But neither are people idiots for not respecting a person who does that.

[Zecele]

Tell you what.



Next time we put in a male lead, we will make sure to make him the manliest and most stoic creature you could possibly imagine. Just for you. He will be so manly he will suck the body hair right off of John Wayne and make Chuck Norris weep with envy. He will never show a single emotion, not even at his grandmother's funeral, and will never utter a single complaint about your actions... he will simply reach out of the game, slap you across the face and then take over the party.



The rest of the party won't mind, and neither will you... because he will be that awesome. Deep down inside you will resent him, and resent the fact that every NPC in every town the party enters falls in love with him and not with you. But that part of you also knows he deserves that love. Even needs it.



I am certain there is not a single fault that you or anyone could find with such a character.

Instead of mana or stamina can he run on manergy?

[UBER GEEKZILLA]

HOW DARE U INSULT ALISTAR ALISTAR OWNS

[Addai]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Thus my initial point still stands that anyone whom says that you can only spare loghain due to meta-gaming knowledge is just as bad as the ones complaining about Alistair being whiny because you are stating your own shallow beliefs on a particular subject.

I just want to clarify something, am not saying you are wrong to have your opinion that 'Loghain must die', I am merely stating you shouldn't be stating that people are metagamers because they allow Loghain to be spared just because they know things will be fine, because the same can easily be said for those that don't spare him.

... and thus you demonstrate that either you didn't understand what I said at all and/or you wish simply to re-assert your (wrong) assessment of it without actually listening.  *sigh*  Whatever.

I will simply point out that neither Zevran nor Shale did anything that sinks down to what Loghain did.  Sure, if your character is in the habit of granting second chances, he/she may well decide Loghain deserves one, too.  Or he/she may well decide that Loghain is beyond that pale.  And let me re-state my main point yet again, that decision can be made based on your character's own judgment regardless of Alistair's opinion, based on pragmatic rather than emotional grounds.

Edit:  I'll also add that my initial comments on metagaming and spoiler knowledge were based on other's actual posts that "Loghain will kill the archdemon and redeem himself so why wouldn't you spare him" type statements.  That sounds to me a lot like basing your game on knowledge your character can't possibly have.

Modifié par Addai67, 19 janvier 2010 - 05:19 .

[Eruanna Guerrein]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

To Addai and the others that concurred with her response, firstly please take no offence with what I am about to say but I figured despite my earlier comment that I needed to respond.

You state that the player can only know it will fine sparing and recruiting Loghain due to spoiler knowledge. You are at that point basically stating the player meta-games.

Let me turn that on its head. How do you know everything is going to be ok if you don't spare him, without spoiler knowledge?

Fair dues you say there is plenty of ways to roleplay things without it being an Alistair decision, but your logic to some extent backfires on itself surely? Because on that very first playthrough if you've done really well to keep spoiler free how can you know what will and won't be fine?

How many of you rescued Sten, spared Zevran, allowed the crazy 'vision seeing' warden-stalker Leliana or the squishy hating golem Shale into your party without knowing it would all be ok?

Considering that they all state they will follow you (and I include Loghain in this group at this point), surely that should be enough right?

Thus my initial point still stands that anyone whom says that you can only spare loghain due to meta-gaming knowledge is just as bad as the ones complaining about Alistair being whiny because you are stating your own shallow beliefs on a particular subject.

I just want to clarify something, am not saying you are wrong to have your opinion that 'Loghain must die', I am merely stating you shouldn't be stating that people are metagamers because they allow Loghain to be spared just because they know things will be fine, because the same can easily be said for those that don't spare him.

None of us said that you could ONLY spare Loghain due to meta-gaming. What we were saying is that there is more than one way to look at things depending on who you, the player, is and who your roleplayed PC is. It's as simple as that. And there are arguments that people, those who think sparing Loghain is the only way, use that you would only know if you were meta gaming. Those arguments are an invalid reason to tell someone they must spare Loghain or be an idiot.

I knew nothing about what would or could happen on my first playthrough yet I refused to even discuss taking Loghain on as a GW. Why? Because my party and I had done a damn fine job of things not only without him but in spite of him. Because we had bested him time and again already. Because I had no reason to believe he was trustworthy. Because the entire game I'd been waiting for this face to face so I could take his ass down.

None of my other party members had a personal vendetta against me, not even Zev. I waivered when making the decision to take him though and I wondered if he really would turn on me for a time. But I knew his reason for coming after me was simply that it was his job. For Loghain, this was not the case.

So while we see the validity of choosing Loghain we also know there are valid reasons for killing him. So we are all saying the same thing.

[xgiovedi]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
From RP perspective, my HN had his whole family killed in front of his eyes and yet he moves on to do what he is supposed to do. He is going to be very annoyed at Alistair crying about a person he knew for only 6 months. And even more annoyed by him asking the stupid question "Have you lost someone?". 

I do not hate Alistair. But from that point on (which is failry early in the game), I had virtually no respect for the guy.

I mentioned that on an earlier post of mine as well. (I don't think this forum is posting any of my posts, either that or they're just really uninteresting). Alistair sort of only cares about himself. I really like him but there are points where I raised an eyebrow. (None involve Loghain )
(From a HN perspective)
- He tells you his friends he's known for 6 months are dead. Don't care you just lost your whole family or everyone you've known due to Howe.
- Isn't a good listener. He won't sit and listen to you talk about your problems, but he'll be more than happy to tell you about how bummed he is about Duncan.
- Yet, says repeatedly you don't need to cry for Duncan. He doesn't really want to take you with him to do any Duncan-related stuff. I'll cry for who I want to. In some epilogue cards, it says he goes alone to build Duncan a memorial. Duncan and I were brothers-in-arms, too, you know. Gray Wardens are a family... I thought.
- Tries to steal food from your dog. No one else in your party does this.
- After you sleep with him and ask where this is going, he says he'll do what he has to for his country and doesn't want to talk about your relationship. Honestly I felt kind of used, especially since I was RPing as a female who had never 'licked a lamppost in winter"
- Tells you it's a bad idea to find your bro. Gets pissed at you if you don't save Eamon, Isolde, and Connor... Isolde, which is surprise, since he hinted he was upset at her and I thought he was hinting he wanted me to off her
- Seems to only care about groups of people that had direct influence in his life-- ie: He doesn't like it when you mess with the Chantry
- and there are more...

But through all this, I still really like him.

[AnniLau]

xgiovedi wrote...

- After you sleep with him and ask where this is going, he says he'll do what he has to for his country and doesn't want to talk about your relationship. Honestly I felt kind of used, especially since I was RPing as a female who had never 'licked a lamppost in winter"

He gives a much more satisfactory answer if you harden him after his personal quest.

[melkathi]

xgiovedi wrote...

- Tells you it's a bad idea to find your bro.

But asks you to please come along and visit his sister for tea...

[Skellimancer]

melkathi wrote...

xgiovedi wrote...

- Tells you it's a bad idea to find your bro.

But asks you to please come along and visit his sister for tea...

Yep. All he cares about is himself and his "family".

[errant_knight]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Daigowedd wrote...

If people think Alistair is whiny I would hate to think what they think about Carth and Anomen where that criticism is actually valid. Alistair gets upset like once and it's when he's mourning for someone. I guess manly men don't care about their comrades dying!

It's not that. Naturally, he could be sad about it. But that doesn't mean he should be on the verge of crying everytime we mention Duncan.
From RP perspective, my HN had his whole family killed in front of his eyes and yet he moves on to do what he is supposed to do. He is going to be very annoyed at Alistair crying about a person he knew for only 6 months. And even more annoyed by him asking the stupid question "Have you lost someone?". 

I do not hate Alistair. But from that point on (which is failry early in the game), I had virtually no respect for the guy.
 

This baffles me, as I think Alistair's reaction is the one that's understandable and the PC is so unemotional as to be difficult to play as a believable character. After my father died, I cried or choked up to the point of being unable to speak every time someone mentioned him for months. Sometimes it still hits me out of the blue and I tear up. Alistair is not only realistic, I've been there. I completely connect with that.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Addai67 wrote...

... and thus you demonstrate that either
you didn't understand what I said at all and/or you wish simply to
re-assert your (wrong) assessment of it without actually listening. 
*sigh*  Whatever.

[/b]Edit:  I'll also add that my initial
comments on metagaming and spoiler knowledge were based on other's
actual posts that "Loghain will kill the archdemon and redeem himself
so why wouldn't you spare him" type statements.  That sounds to me a
lot like basing your game on knowledge your character can't possibly
have.

Except one problem with your edit.

I... didn't make those statements. I have as you well know pointed out at least one reason you could spare him, I can think of a whole lot more decent RP reasons to. Also whilst this topic was originally about Alistair, thanks to someone Loghain got dragged into it as usual, I never said Alistairs views had anything to do with it, the stupid blonde one is well within his rights to some extent to feel what he feels considering he obviously never thought to do any reading up of what his father did in the past. That is his perogative though.

My initial post wasn't aimed at you, it was aimed at those who solely thought that the only reason you can spare him is metagame knowledge, case in point Viscious recent post. As I am sure you will agree, there are many ways that for example a Human Noble could signify Loghain as a symbol of greatness up until ostagar, even then you could easily associate his fall due to Howe (Something Gaider has stated is possible in one of the old 'Alistair-Loghain' topics).

I am not arguing or stating you shouldn't spare him, I am merely pointing out that not everyone spares him due to metagame knowledge and the hilarious thing is I can imagine some of the people that claim that (yourself and others who have replied not being in that number) are probably just as much metagaming because they know things will be ok either way.

Eruanna Guerrein wrote...

None of us said that you could ONLY spare Loghain due to meta-gaming. What we were saying is that there is more than one way to look at things depending on who you, the player, is and who your roleplayed PC is. It's as simple as that. And there are arguments that people, those who think sparing Loghain is the only way, use that you would only know if you were meta gaming. Those arguments are an invalid reason to tell someone they must spare Loghain or be an idiot.

I knew nothing about what would or could happen on my first playthrough yet I refused to even discuss taking Loghain on as a GW. Why? Because my party and I had done a damn fine job of things not only without him but in spite of him. Because we had bested him time and again already. Because I had no reason to believe he was trustworthy. Because the entire game I'd been waiting for this face to face so I could take his ass down.

None of my other party members had a personal vendetta against me, not even Zev. I waivered when making the decision to take him though and I wondered if he really would turn on me for a time. But I knew his reason for coming after me was simply that it was his job. For Loghain, this was not the case.

So while we see the validity of choosing Loghain we also know there are valid reasons for killing him. So we are all saying the same thing.

Exactly I agree, those that claim people that don't spare him as everything will be ok even if you do are idiots.

As above though, I'll admit maybe I didn't make it clear in my initial posts, it was namely the people that claimed that the sole reason people spare him is because they know they can either sacrifice him at the end to save their own hides or basically because they know there is no consequences and can't see how anyone can come it with a true justifiable reason to spare him other than they felt like being evil/an arse/stupid.

Another perfect scenario other than the 'higher ground/diplomacy over violence' type character, this one I like to now refer to as the 'Cauthrien' scenario. Basically a human noble whom has the same idolised opinion of Loghain as Ser Cauthrien does, can't see anything wrong, can't believe it when he betrays Cailan and Duncan and the wardens, refuses to believe he was the main instigator, even when the bad assassin drops in stating Loghain paid him to do the job (can't remember if Zev mentions Howe at this point?), no it must be all that crazy Howe's fault. Anyway so go through all the usual, get to speaking to Anora before the Landsmeet after Howe is dead. Anora actually does state (no matter what origin) that perhaps now Howe is dead Loghain will be more open to reason. So you go fight him, he yields, even makes comment bout you having same strength as Maric, 'Cauthrien' warden gets to spare him.

Am not saying this for either of your benefits because I do believe that you are decent RPers, it is the morons whom just think that people spare loghain because of metagame knowledge alone (without replying to the 'idiots' as aforementioned like you did, which is justifiable) that I find amusing and figured they need to realise there are plenty of ways it can be done. Both from a goody two shoes character to a chaotic evil person.

More back on topic, those that reckon they are nice to Alistair by putting him on the throne, did you actually speak to him at all during the story? Because last I recall he never wanted it. The only person whom all a sudden decides to push it is Eamon. See this is why I 'personally' side more with Loghain on his chain of thought that basically Eamon is looking to puppeteer Alistair to his own ends. Note, this does not mean I do it with my characters, just my own personal opinion of it, that doesn't effect how I play.

Modifié par Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien, 19 janvier 2010 - 06:36 .