596 réponses à ce sujet

[Hezulkai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Pardon me, I should have typed, but I meant: How much do we know of him as a person, his goals, his intent and all that. Only Anora and Ser Cauthrien know to answer that question properly, for they know him for many years.

All of those you said of, only know Loghain a very little bit, its not something to base a decision upon.

Depending on your conversations, both Cauthrien and Anora will agree that Loghain has gone mad and needs to be stopped.  So, if you want to go by the people who know him best, they (depending on your dialogue choices) will tell you this man is not fit to lead, or fit to remain free.  Even Anora asks that you try to spare his life, but does not demand it.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Hezulkai wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Pardon me, I should have typed, but I meant: How much do we know of him as a person, his goals, his intent and all that. Only Anora and Ser Cauthrien know to answer that question properly, for they know him for many years.

All of those you said of, only know Loghain a very little bit, its not something to base a decision upon.

Depending on your conversations, both Cauthrien and Anora will agree that Loghain has gone mad and needs to be stopped.  So, if you want to go by the people who know him best, they (depending on your dialogue choices) will tell you this man is not fit to lead, or fit to remain free.  Even Anora asks that you try to spare his life, but does not demand it.

Right but there is a difference between 'stopping' someone and 'beheading' them.

[David Gaider]

Creature 1 wrote...
So, no, Alistair is not a hero.  You didn't write him that way.  Since you did not write him as a hero, you cannot expect people to see him as a hero.  I would think that you would be pleased with the results, since a boring character excites no interest in anyone, while a well-written one is more likely to be greatly liked or greatly disliked.  But instead you insult the people who dislike Alistair and offer to give them a Marty Stu.  That is offensive.  

I never claimed that Alistair existed to be liked. Nor am I suggesting that everyone needs to find his behavior mature... as I already stated. Perhaps you should read what I said before puffing yourself up in indignation? Just a thought.

My comments were directed solely at the people who write Alistair off as a "whiny complainer", when he neither whines nor complains as much as he probably has a right to. The human noble player doesn't either, surely, but we're not talking about comparisons here. Those who have legitimate beefs as to why they dislike Alistair I have no issue with -- and hey, it's not like my being unimpressed stops the ones with illegitimate beefs from disliking him anyhow. They could say they hated his nose and OMG wanted him gone NOW! So whatever. You're entitled to your opinion... doesn't mean you can't still be wrong.

And that doesn't mean that I can't chime in with my two cents, either, when I wish to. You can lower your approval at that all you like, I don't have to take you into my party.

Modifié par David Gaider, 19 janvier 2010 - 07:01 .

[Posioned]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Right but there is a difference between 'stopping' someone and 'beheading' them.

See that is why I wish there was some kind of third option for Loghain. I didn't want him as a warden, but after the little speech he made about Anora (being six years old with skinned knees) I didn't want to kill him either. And I'm a huge Alistair fan.

[Monica21]

Creature 1 wrote...
Plus in addition to the above normal flaws, he has an unreasonable hero worship of Duncan.  If Duncan were to show up in Redcliffe with the party, I think he would decide that the fastest solution to the problem was to murder knife Connor.  From what we've seen in game of Alistair's views on Duncan and his actions, Alistair would probably compliment Duncan on his knife technique.  But if the PC does the same thing, Alistair flips out.  From the point of view of half of my characters, Duncan is a opportunistic louse who does the minimum necessary to help them (human noble and city elf), and only then so he can loop them into the Gray Wardens without first letting them know what they're getting into.  The other half (mage) resent him because he held back vital information.  Alistair is there, he knows that Jory was not told of the dangers ahead of time and murdered when he tried to back out, and he knows that you also didn't know of the dangers and did not know you were truncating your lifespan and dooming yourself to either slow death from insanity or suicide by darkspawn.  Yet all of this is ok with Alistair because he lubs Duncan who can do no wrong.

I wouldn't call his relationship with Duncan unreasonable hero worship at all, and I also can't imagine Duncan being okay with using blood magic when there is another option, so the point is moot, at least in my opinion. As for making the decision to sacrifice Isolde, if your character doesn't know that Alistair would be entirely opposed to it, if only for using blood magic alone, then your character hasn't been paying attention. Whatever Alistair's relationship with Isolde, he's certainly not the type to want someone dead "just because." This is the wife of the man who raised him, and he knows Eamon loves her. What in Alistair's character makes you think he doesn't mind hurting Eamon?

Then add in Alistair's immature attitude towards romance--"Gotta get laid before I die!  Ok, got laid, now must dump girlfriend for duty's sake!"  A good portion of the people who dislike Alistair dislike him because he publicly dumped their character and they didn't see it coming.  My mage who romanced him was saved this ending because she saw he'd make a horrible king and let Anora rule instead.  I started out the game liking Alistair and she romanced him, but by the end I had lost a good deal of respect for him, and felt like my mage was more mothering him than standing as an equal partner. 

Again, I didn't see this at all. You can romance Alistair without having sex with him. Not to mention that he doesn't want to be king. Your character forces him too. Getting dumped is not out of character for Alistair. He loves you, but since you made him king he has a higher duty. You didn't have to make him king and you didn't have to romance him, but everything happens because of the choices your character makes. And honestly, his decision is not irrational.

Then there's the situation with Loghain.  I've never conscripted him, although I'm sure I will sometime.  I just don't trust him.  But I would think that after all my character and Alistair had been through he would trust me more than that.  I wouldn't cheat him out of revenge, just ask him to delay it a bit--like Duncan has asked my characters to do.  But he doesn't even attempt to figure out what you have in mind if you spare Loghain, he immediately takes rash action.

I see parallels between his situation with Loghain and mine with Arl Howe. I wouldn't spare Howe even as an extra warm body for the Wardens, so why should Alistair be expected to?

[errant_knight]

errant_knight wrote...

This baffles me, as I think Alistair's reaction is the one that's understandable and the PC is so unemotional as to be difficult to play as a believable character. After my father died, I cried or choked up to the point of being unable to speak every time someone mentioned him for months. Sometimes it still hits me out of the blue and I tear up. Alistair is not only realistic, I've been there. I completely connect with that.

ADDENDUM: This isn't to say I don't know why the PC doesn't show more human frailty. Allowance for different characterization styles aside, it could lead to dialogue like this:

Alistair: I don't know...what do you think we should do?

PC: I don't know. What do you think?

Alistair: I don't know... Maybe we should just go.

PC: I don't know... We might get a lot of people killed. Is that the best idea?

Alistair: I don't know...

[Hezulkai]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Hezulkai wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Pardon me, I should have typed, but I meant: How much do we know of him as a person, his goals, his intent and all that. Only Anora and Ser Cauthrien know to answer that question properly, for they know him for many years.

All of those you said of, only know Loghain a very little bit, its not something to base a decision upon.

Depending on your conversations, both Cauthrien and Anora will agree that Loghain has gone mad and needs to be stopped.  So, if you want to go by the people who know him best, they (depending on your dialogue choices) will tell you this man is not fit to lead, or fit to remain free.  Even Anora asks that you try to spare his life, but does not demand it.

Right but there is a difference between 'stopping' someone and 'beheading' them.

Is there?  In this feudal society, they are the same thing.  We run around the nation inflicting summary judgements on all sorts of people.  Again, depending on your path, you allow Harrowmont to be executed for his attempt to take the throne, or kill Behlen without offering surrender for the same crime.  You can kill Vaughn (a noble) in any playthrough even when he's a helpless, unarmed captive in a cell, just because of the way he talks about elves.  All you do the entire breadth and scope of the game is wander around killing people for everything from having a different religious philosophy to backchatting elves, to attempted regicide, to siding *with* the throne in a civil war.

In the same vein, I can't believe that anyone who plays a mage is shocked they can't take the throne.  Seriously?  Were you even listening?  Politics rules most of what you do in game.  Magic exists to serve mankind and never to rule over him.  If a mage ever ascended to the throne, the Chantry would have a divine march called before the week was up.  (Edit to add: I want to make it clear that I was not aiming this comment at the person to whom I am replying.  This is another common theme that shows up in "I hate Alistair" threads, in that "he dumped my poor precious mages and I wub hims so muchies, and now I hate him forever!" sense)

All of these discussions of the characters need to take the larger game world, and the social norms of Ferelden in stride.  I found playing a city elf blood mage probably the worst ending, if you think about it.  There's no way that story can end well for the warden, short of them withdrawing entirely from court life.  Ferelden politics would pretty much ensure that a blood mage warden eventually dies messily.  Wynne hints at it in her final speech.  You're a hero until you first do something wrong, and then the people propping you up will drag you down.  It's a fine line you all walk and eventually you pay when you step out of that line.  Loghain stepped way off the line and in the end he pays just as countless before him have paid (just as Anora would make Alistair pay if the situation was reversed).  Everyone, including Anora, is shocked when Alistair inprisons her instead of executing her.  Sparing Loghain is the political and social abnormality, not whacking off his head.

Modifié par Hezulkai, 19 janvier 2010 - 07:04 .

[robertthebard]

David Gaider wrote...
You can lower your approval at that all you like, I don't have to take you into my party.

Yes you do, I'm plot sensitive.

[StaticSilence]

Gaider, you are so cool, just like Alistair- Perhaps you modeled him after yourself?



For DA2 can I have an Army of Alistairs? A clone army perhaps... Call it DA2:O: A: Episode 2: Attack of the Alistairs. Since you guys clearly love colons & hyphens & subnames in your game titles.



/sarcasm



I do like Alistair as a character though. Keep up the great writing.

[Ilvra]

melkathi wrote...

xgiovedi wrote...

- Tells you it's a bad idea to find your bro.

But asks you to please come along and visit his sister for tea...

And this is a valid comparison because his sister is  also lost somewhere in the Kocari Wilds with thousands of darkspawn, right?

[KnightofPhoenix]

errant_knight wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It's not that. Naturally, he could be sad about it. But that doesn't mean he should be on the verge of crying everytime we mention Duncan.
From RP perspective, my HN had his whole family killed in front of his eyes and yet he moves on to do what he is supposed to do. He is going to be very annoyed at Alistair crying about a person he knew for only 6 months. And even more annoyed by him asking the stupid question "Have you lost someone?". 

I do not hate Alistair. But from that point on (which is failry early in the game), I had virtually no respect for the guy.
 

This baffles me, as I think Alistair's reaction is the one that's understandable and the PC is so unemotional as to be difficult to play as a believable character. After my father died, I cried or choked up to the point of being unable to speak every time someone mentioned him for months. Sometimes it still hits me out of the blue and I tear up. Alistair is not only realistic, I've been there. I completely connect with that.

You didn't get my point.
Imagine, shall we, that you lost your family, God forbids God forbids.
And I lost a friend I have only known for 6 months.
Wouldn't you feel annoyed if I started crying and complaining in front of you, while you have more reason to? Wouldn't you be annoyed if I want your attention and want you to listen to me crying, but I don't listen to you, while you suffered an even greater loss?
Wouldn't you want to slap the hell out of me if I ask you the question "Have you lost someone you loved" while I know perfectly well what happened to your family?

Alistair is acting like a complete child. He is selfish in a very child like way. Not to say he isn't well written. He is. But as a character, I do not respect him at all.

[David Gaider]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Wouldn't you want to slap the hell out of me if I ask you the question "Have you lost someone you loved" while I know perfectly well what happened to your family?

Not if I remembered that you weren't there when it happened and it might have just been something Duncan mentioned to you... about someone who, at the time, you didn't know at all. I might also recall that you've never had a family, and that losing Duncan was just as important to you as losing my family was to me.

Not that this might change how you feel -- obviously some people don't really care if Alistair has reasons to feel the way he does -- but I thought it deserves to be said.

[What a Twist]

David Gaider wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Wouldn't you want to slap the hell out of me if I ask you the question "Have you lost someone you loved" while I know perfectly well what happened to your family?

Not if I remembered that you weren't there when it happened and it might have just been something Duncan mentioned to you... about someone who, at the time, you didn't know at all. I might also recall that you've never had a family, and that losing Duncan was just as important to you as losing my family was to me.

Not that this might change how you feel -- obviously some people don't really care if Alistair has reasons to feel the way he does -- but I thought it deserves to be said.

"Yeah only my entire family got killed in one night, i'm sorry you lost some guy you knew for a year or so, must be hard for you."

[KnightofPhoenix]

David Gaider wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Wouldn't you want to slap the hell out of me if I ask you the question "Have you lost someone you loved" while I know perfectly well what happened to your family?

Not if I remembered that you weren't there when it happened and it might have just been something Duncan mentioned to you... about someone who, at the time, you didn't know at all. I might also recall that you've never had a family, and that losing Duncan was just as important to you as losing my family was to me.

Not that this might change how you feel -- obviously some people don't really care if Alistair has reasons to feel the way he does -- but I thought it deserves to be said.

Batman disagrees

[ReubenLiew]

Make good use of that Connery Slap, Batman, the little nuinsance deserved it!

[David Gaider]

What a Twist wrote...
"Yeah only my entire family got killed in one night, i'm sorry you lost some guy you knew for a year or so, must be hard for you."

Try that out in real life the next time you meet someone who lost someone they've known for only six months but cared about deeply, and tell them that you lost someone you knew much longer and therefore your grief is more valid than theirs. See how that goes.

[What a Twist]

David Gaider wrote...

What a Twist wrote...
"Yeah only my entire family got killed in one night, i'm sorry you lost some guy you knew for a year or so, must be hard for you."

Try that out in real life the next time you meet someone who lost someone they've known for only six months but cared about deeply, and tell them that you lost someone you knew much longer and therefore your grief is more valid than theirs. See how that goes.

Its not that he can't be upset about it. And im not saying the writing is bad david. He just seems to go on and on about it at times, which is weird considering the PC pretty much never brings up the whole family slaughtered thing.

I like his character as a whole, since I bring him on almost all my playthroughs... sometimes just to annoy him by being evil... but the "Not duncan, NOOOOOOOoooooooo...." drama got a bit much for me. I guess if I talked to him less I wouldn't notice, but you REALLY got the point across that he was sad about it.

Hes just such a softy at times, it makes me think "SNAP OUT OF IT MAN, YOU'VE GOT TO BE KING!"

[David Gaider]

What a Twist wrote...
Its not that he can't be upset about it. And im not saying the writing is bad david. He just seems to go on and on about it at times, which is weird considering the PC pretty much never brings up the whole family slaughtered thing.

How does he "go on about it"? He barely mentions it. And while I get that you wanted to roleplay out your own grief (though for who's benefit I'm not quite sure, but let's assume you wanted to) I'm simply not certain where we arrive at Alistair going "Not duncan, NOOOOOooooo..." -- that's a lot of hyperbole, if you ask me.

Hence the "whiny complainer" thing. Sure he does whine and complain a bit... a bit. But my only observation was that it seems like it only takes once for some people to fall all over themselves in disgust that a character DARED. I mean, really? "What about MY grief? What about ME?"

If that's really your response, hey no problem. But I get to laugh at it.

[Kohaku]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Batman disagrees

That is why Batman is the man I love to hate.

[TyroneTasty]

Now that I've beaten the game, and to add more fuel to this fire, I felt Alistair was a bit out of character when he went and sliced off Loghain's head at the end, though very cool, heh. I thought that was a bit of a dishonorable thing for someone like him to do, though I understand his anger. I think if he would have shown signs of vengeance before then it would have made more sense, perhaps a dialogue discussing what he would do with Loghain if he had the chance, I don't know, maybe it's in there and I forgot. Otherwise he was a perfectly realized character.

[Bhatair]

I didn't feel it was too out of character for him. He does state 'This is for Ducnan.' after all.

[MyKingdomCold]

I like Alistair a lot, but I do have a question about him and the dwarf noble origin. If I remember correctly, if you're a dwarf noble and tell him when you ask him for directions at Lothering that it might be hard for you to go back to Orzammar, he more or less tells you to get over it. So why can't I tell him to get over it without him losing approval of me?

[Apophis2412]

David Gaider wrote...

What a Twist wrote...
Its not that he can't be upset about it. And im not saying the writing is bad david. He just seems to go on and on about it at times, which is weird considering the PC pretty much never brings up the whole family slaughtered thing.

How does he "go on about it"? He barely mentions it. And while I get that you wanted to roleplay out your own grief (though for who's benefit I'm not quite sure, but let's assume you wanted to) I'm simply not certain where we arrive at Alistair going "Not duncan, NOOOOOooooo..." -- that's a lot of hyperbole, if you ask me.

Hence the "whiny complainer" thing. Sure he does whine and complain a bit... a bit. But my only observation was that it seems like it only takes once for some people to fall all over themselves in disgust that a character DARED. I mean, really? "What about MY grief? What about ME?"

If that's really your response, hey no problem. But I get to laugh at it.

One of the problems people have with Alistair is that he throws a  hissyfit and abandons the Grey Wardens and Ferelden if the player chooses to spare Loghain. He is putting his own personal feelinsg and his desire to see the murderer of Duncan punished above the needs of the entire country.

Although it was not out of character for him, it does make him more hated by the fans.

Modifié par Apophis2412, 19 janvier 2010 - 08:06 .

[What a Twist]

David Gaider wrote...

What a Twist wrote...
Its not that he can't be upset about it. And im not saying the writing is bad david. He just seems to go on and on about it at times, which is weird considering the PC pretty much never brings up the whole family slaughtered thing.

How does he "go on about it"? He barely mentions it. And while I get that you wanted to roleplay out your own grief (though for who's benefit I'm not quite sure, but let's assume you wanted to) I'm simply not certain where we arrive at Alistair going "Not duncan, NOOOOOooooo..." -- that's a lot of hyperbole, if you ask me.

Hence the "whiny complainer" thing. Sure he does whine and complain a bit... a bit. But my only observation was that it seems like it only takes once for some people to fall all over themselves in disgust that a character DARED. I mean, really? "What about MY grief? What about ME?"

If that's really your response, hey no problem. But I get to laugh at it.

I might remember it as worse than it actually is, since ive played through the game nearly 5 times now. I think the one that annoyed me the most is when you ask him about his time with the other grey wardens and he breaks down for the 3rd time. All of the other characters have sad stories too, heck shale stood in the middle of a village forever, before that who knows. When you get to redcliffe he gets depressed about how he wished he had died with duncan, which is more understandable.

I like the fact that he has a sense of grief, but hes fighting to save the world from the blight, and hes one of two grey wardens left. From the grey wardens in your book "The Calling" which I enjoyed very much, the grey wardens are a bunch of seasoned badasses. Even the new recruits have a pair if you catch my drift. It makes me wonder why duncan recruited him in the first place.

Modifié par What a Twist, 19 janvier 2010 - 08:08 .

[What a Twist]

Apophis2412 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

What a Twist wrote...
Its not that he can't be upset about it. And im not saying the writing is bad david. He just seems to go on and on about it at times, which is weird considering the PC pretty much never brings up the whole family slaughtered thing.

How does he "go on about it"? He barely mentions it. And while I get that you wanted to roleplay out your own grief (though for who's benefit I'm not quite sure, but let's assume you wanted to) I'm simply not certain where we arrive at Alistair going "Not duncan, NOOOOOooooo..." -- that's a lot of hyperbole, if you ask me.

Hence the "whiny complainer" thing. Sure he does whine and complain a bit... a bit. But my only observation was that it seems like it only takes once for some people to fall all over themselves in disgust that a character DARED. I mean, really? "What about MY grief? What about ME?"

If that's really your response, hey no problem. But I get to laugh at it.

One of the problems people have with Alistair is that he throws a  hissyfit and abandons the Grey Wardens and Ferelden if the player chooses to spare Loghain. He is putting his own personal feelinsg and his desire to see the murderer of Duncan punished above the needs of the entire country.

Although it was not out of character for him, it does make him more hated by the fans.

Gah, I hate that part more than anything. "Well... we can chop YOUR head off instead, atleast you won't care then." No matter how much he likes you, you can't persuade him, hes just gets emo and leaves. Thought there are no other turning points for him, I guess there has to be one, it just left my gritting my teeth.