596 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

David Gaider wrote...

What a Twist wrote...
"Yeah only my entire family got killed in one night, i'm sorry you lost some guy you knew for a year or so, must be hard for you."

Try that out in real life the next time you meet someone who lost someone they've known for only six months but cared about deeply, and tell them that you lost someone you knew much longer and therefore your grief is more valid than theirs. See how that goes.

I did try that in real life.
A guy was crying about his pet who is dead right in front of a girlfriend of mine whose father passed away a few days before. Who is to say that he didn't care about his pet more than she loved her dad? I can't know. Nonetheless I requested that he either remains silent or he gets out of the room. And it went well.  

[Posioned]

I don't get all the Alistair hate. I've never seen him as exceptionally whiny and I've always seen his grief as something valid for him. I think he's more of a sensitve soul type (which I love) And is a nice change from the typical bad ass types in games. I see his character as someone who is a little more human and makes mistakes.

[Sandtigress]

What a Twist wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

What a Twist wrote...
Its not that he can't be upset about it. And im not saying the writing is bad david. He just seems to go on and on about it at times, which is weird considering the PC pretty much never brings up the whole family slaughtered thing.

How does he "go on about it"? He barely mentions it. And while I get that you wanted to roleplay out your own grief (though for who's benefit I'm not quite sure, but let's assume you wanted to) I'm simply not certain where we arrive at Alistair going "Not duncan, NOOOOOooooo..." -- that's a lot of hyperbole, if you ask me.

Hence the "whiny complainer" thing. Sure he does whine and complain a bit... a bit. But my only observation was that it seems like it only takes once for some people to fall all over themselves in disgust that a character DARED. I mean, really? "What about MY grief? What about ME?"

If that's really your response, hey no problem. But I get to laugh at it.

I might remember it as worse than it actually is, since ive played through the game nearly 5 times now. I think the one that annoyed me the most is when you ask him about his time with the other grey wardens and he breaks down for the 3rd time. All of the other characters have sad stories too, heck shale stood in the middle of a village forever, before that who knows. When you get to redcliffe he gets depressed about how he wished he had died with duncan, which is more understandable.

I like the fact that he has a sense of grief, but hes fighting to save the world from the blight, and hes one of two grey wardens left. From the grey wardens in your book "The Calling" which I enjoyed very much, the grey wardens are a bunch of seasoned badasses. Even the new recruits have a pair if you catch my drift. It makes me wonder why duncan recruited him in the first place.

Hey, the Wardens in The Calling had no problem crying now and then.  I love the scene with Kell and Hafter towards the end.  Even a particular "badass" had a rough time of it after a foray into a dream.  One of them, depending on how you look at things, essentially gave up and decided to quit rather than go on to a future he didn't like.

The Wardens are just as human as anyone else, for the most part.

[What a Twist]

Sandtigress wrote...

What a Twist wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

What a Twist wrote...
Its not that he can't be upset about it. And im not saying the writing is bad david. He just seems to go on and on about it at times, which is weird considering the PC pretty much never brings up the whole family slaughtered thing.

How does he "go on about it"? He barely mentions it. And while I get that you wanted to roleplay out your own grief (though for who's benefit I'm not quite sure, but let's assume you wanted to) I'm simply not certain where we arrive at Alistair going "Not duncan, NOOOOOooooo..." -- that's a lot of hyperbole, if you ask me.

Hence the "whiny complainer" thing. Sure he does whine and complain a bit... a bit. But my only observation was that it seems like it only takes once for some people to fall all over themselves in disgust that a character DARED. I mean, really? "What about MY grief? What about ME?"

If that's really your response, hey no problem. But I get to laugh at it.

I might remember it as worse than it actually is, since ive played through the game nearly 5 times now. I think the one that annoyed me the most is when you ask him about his time with the other grey wardens and he breaks down for the 3rd time. All of the other characters have sad stories too, heck shale stood in the middle of a village forever, before that who knows. When you get to redcliffe he gets depressed about how he wished he had died with duncan, which is more understandable.

I like the fact that he has a sense of grief, but hes fighting to save the world from the blight, and hes one of two grey wardens left. From the grey wardens in your book "The Calling" which I enjoyed very much, the grey wardens are a bunch of seasoned badasses. Even the new recruits have a pair if you catch my drift. It makes me wonder why duncan recruited him in the first place.

Hey, the Wardens in The Calling had no problem crying now and then.  I love the scene with Kell and Hafter towards the end.  Even a particular "badass" had a rough time of it after a foray into a dream.  One of them, depending on how you look at things, essentially gave up and decided to quit rather than go on to a future he didn't like.

The Wardens are just as human as anyone else, for the most part.

Yeah that was a great scene.

[David Gaider]

Apophis2412 wrote...
One of the problems people have with Alistair is that he throws a  hissyfit and abandons the Grey Wardens and Ferelden if the player chooses to spare Loghain. He is putting his own personal feelinsg and his desire to see the murderer of Duncan punished above the needs of the entire country.

As I've said in previous threads, I think the only time he does something particularly objectionable is when he's not going to be king and walks anyway when you spare Loghain. At that point the Grey Wardens have become something awful, and he doesn't want any part of it -- saving the world or no. "To hell with the world" is his attitude then, which he will regret in time no doubt.

In most other instances it seems like player dissatisfaction stems from the plot not going the way they want it to go. They use metagame knowledge to complain that they should be able to recruit Loghain and have him redeem himself in death against the Archdemon, and that Alistair should be okay with this even though nobody except Riordan knows at the time about that Final Solution and even Riordan doesn't know the confrontation with the Archdemon will come before the other Grey Wardens in Orlais have a chance to arrive. Recruiting Loghain at the Landsmeet is a possible notion, a way to get a good recruit, but not a life-or-death situation... yet.

And as much as Alistair loved Duncan, there's little doubt in my mind that had Duncan lived there would have been some moments where Duncan might have shattered Alistair's illusions as well. Would Duncan have recruited Loghain? Now there's a thought. And no doubt Alistair would have been just as shattered.

Although it was not out of character for him, it does make him more hated by the fans.

Well, some people do seem to think it's out of character, however... I've actually read people saying "I've been able to boss him around in every other situation, why can't I boss him around NOW?" Which tells me they're thinking less about the character and more about their own needs -- "What about MEeee?" again. Which I have no problem with -- there are a million reasons one might hate Alistair. Some self-awareness about it would be nice, however.

[Sandtigress]

David Gaider wrote...

And as much as Alistair loved Duncan, there's little doubt in my mind that had Duncan lived there would have been some moments where Duncan might have shattered Alistair's illusions as well. Would Duncan have recruited Loghain? Now there's a thought. And no doubt Alistair would have been just as shattered.

Heh, I wonder how Alistair would take it to hear how and why Duncan was recruited in the first place.  Assuming, of course, that he doesn't know the story, but somehow, I think he hadn't heard.

[BeljoraDien]

The reason so many people hate Alistair is simple: If they're a male, he's their rival to the throne.

Not to mention he takes the back seat early on, and most people without experience leading people see that as the biotch seat.

[David Gaider]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I did try that in real life.
A guy was crying about his pet who is dead right in front of a girlfriend of mine whose father passed away a few days before. Who is to say that he didn't care about his pet more than she loved her dad? I can't know. Nonetheless I requested that he either remains silent or he gets out of the room. And it went well.  

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. That "Duncan and all Grey Warden friends=dead pet"? Or that you weren't a jerk for silencing your friend's grief because you thought your other friend's grief was more valid? Even if you believe you weren't, I bet your friend with the dead pet might have felt differently.

[KnightofPhoenix]

BeljoraDien wrote...

The reason so many people hate Alistair is simple: If they're a male, he's their rival to the throne.

Eum no, only to the HN.
And besides. Alistair a rival? lol My HN let him live preciely because he doesn't see him as a threat. He is nothing without the PC.  

[Ilvra]

Posioned wrote...

I don't get all the Alistair hate. I've never seen him as exceptionally whiny and I've always seen his grief as something valid for him. I think he's more of a sensitve soul type (which I love) And is a nice change from the typical bad ass types in games. I see his character as someone who is a little more human and makes mistakes.

I've got to agree. And, frankly, if I hated every person in my life who ever made a mistake, I'd be one lonely soul indeed.

[_Aine_]

I think maybe Alistair just perhaps would not be able to emotionally handle thinking of Duncan in that way...yet anyway. He had never had a father and then when he perceived someone as a father figure, he loses him.

As it was it nagged at me the whole time I played --- why didn`t someone just stand up to the King -- even during the first real chat when you arrive in Ostagar, Duncan alludes to the fact that they *should* be getting more assistance and suggest, albeit in somewhat muted tones that this is a matter of fairy-tale dreaming of dramatic epic history in the making for the king ( in his mind) and frankly, Duncan sounded like he had the best chance of speaking sense to the king with the high esteem the king felt for the Grey Wardens *if* that was actually the case and not just as I interpreted it at the time...

Maybe at some point in his grief Alistair would have stopped blaming himself ( which is where i think a lot of his grief and dwelling on his pain comes from -- not an excess of whine but rather a surplus of sense of duty and a large lack of maturity in how to deal with his own perceived failures, especially during times of emotional upheaval. )

Of course, the more i learn of Loghain, the more I understand him.  I find it increasingly difficult to continue hating someone I increasingly *get* even if i think decisions or even current motivations may be questionable....at best for lack of knowing the truth.  

Modifié par shantisands, 19 janvier 2010 - 08:36 .

[Dragon Age1103]

I do not hate Alistair but I tend to dislike him more & more as the game progresses. I didn't even hate him after his childish actions at the Landsmeet but I did lose respect for him.

When I first met him I found him to be witty, funny, charming but after the landsmeet he lashed out like a spoiled child for the last time. He let his emotions get the better of him & destroy his judgment for what was best for his country, for Ferelden!

I wish i could of been the one to end his life, he deserved it for taking the same path as Loghain. Using some pathetic excuse to only bring harm to his country. Loghain was paranoid of the Orlesians & Alistair was too childish to let go of the past & stand for what was best for Ferelden. Because of his rash actions we lost a great Grey Warden but gained a legendary General. (depending on how you played it out.lqtm.)

[melkathi]

BeljoraDien wrote...

The reason so many people hate Alistair is simple: If they're a male, he's their rival to the throne.
Not to mention he takes the back seat early on, and most people without experience leading people see that as the biotch seat.

I seriously doubt that.
Most people who play throught the first time don't even know they could be king. It would also imply only people who's favourid origin is human noble dislike Alistair.
No, sometimes dislike stems from the simple fact that a person is not likeable to certain people.

As for your other point, people don't have to see someone who prefers to follow as whatever you wish to call it. In any relationship, be it friendship, buisness or love, if one party always ends up having to take decissions and the other party always accepting them and even if it comes to a small confrontation, imediatly backing down, then when they do stand up for themselves, it is such a surprise to the other party, that it will be recieved as abberant behaviour. People get used to having to lead, it's not necessarily selfishness or a feeling superiority.

[Apophis2412]

David Gaider wrote...

Apophis2412 wrote...
One of the problems people have with Alistair is that he throws a  hissyfit and abandons the Grey Wardens and Ferelden if the player chooses to spare Loghain. He is putting his own personal feelinsg and his desire to see the murderer of Duncan punished above the needs of the entire country.

As I've said in previous threads, I think the only time he does something particularly objectionable is when he's not going to be king and walks anyway when you spare Loghain. At that point the Grey Wardens have become something awful, and he doesn't want any part of it -- saving the world or no. "To hell with the world" is his attitude then, which he will regret in time no doubt.

In most other instances it seems like player dissatisfaction stems from the plot not going the way they want it to go. They use metagame knowledge to complain that they should be able to recruit Loghain and have him redeem himself in death against the Archdemon, and that Alistair should be okay with this even though nobody except Riordan knows at the time about that Final Solution and even Riordan doesn't know the confrontation with the Archdemon will come before the other Grey Wardens in Orlais have a chance to arrive. Recruiting Loghain at the Landsmeet is a possible notion, a way to get a good recruit, but not a life-or-death situation... yet.

And as much as Alistair loved Duncan, there's little doubt in my mind that had Duncan lived there would have been some moments where Duncan might have shattered Alistair's illusions as well. Would Duncan have recruited Loghain? Now there's a thought. And no doubt Alistair would have been just as shattered.

Although it was not out of character for him, it does make him more hated by the fans.

Well, some people do seem to think it's out of character, however... I've actually read people saying "I've been able to boss him around in every other situation, why can't I boss him around NOW?" Which tells me they're thinking less about the character and more about their own needs -- "What about MEeee?" again. Which I have no problem with -- there are a million reasons one might hate Alistair. Some self-awareness about it would be nice, however.

Was Alistair deluded then? Did he see the Grey Wardens as an order of noble knights? Something straight out of a fairy tale?

He did know about all of hthe gruesome deeds the GW have done in the past. Did he he chose to simply ignore all that? And if so, why? Because the GW were the only ones who treated him like Alistair, instead of the heir to the Theirin line?

And the reason people hate Alistair  or Loghain is ironically because they love the other character. Alistair fangirls hate Loghain, because Alistair hates him. Loghain fans hate Alistair for wanting Loghain dead so badly.

[Sandtigress]

Dragon Age1103 wrote...

I do not hate Alistair but I tend to dislike him more & more as the game progresses. I didn't even hate him after his childish actions at the Landsmeet but I did lose respect for him.
When I first met him I found him to be witty, funny, charming but after the landsmeet he lashed out like a spoiled child for the last time. He let his emotions get the better of him & destroy his judgment for what was best for his country, for Ferelden!
I wish i could of been the one to end his life, he deserved it for taking the same path as Loghain. Using some pathetic excuse to only bring harm to his country. Loghain was paranoid of the Orlesians & Alistair was too childish to let go of the past & stand for what was best for Ferelden. Because of his rash actions we lost a great Grey Warden but gained a legendary General. (depending on how you played it out.lqtm.)

But is taking Loghain into the Wardens necessarily the best thing for Ferelden?  I don't think there are any compelling reasons why it has to be that way.  In fact, I think its just as easy to see how letting Loghain live is just as bad for Ferelden as killing him would be.

Anora may make a big fuss over Alistair's emotional outburst, but that guy is her father.  Is she really any better for calling Alistair out to save her father's life?  I think you can see it both ways.

Most of my characters have seen Alistair's point after he lists off the numerous evil things that Loghain has done, and have gone with his decision.  That isn't to say that one hasn't tried to spare Loghain, and maybe another will.

But I really don't think its such a black and white decision - spare Loghain good for country, kill him bad for country.  There are pros and cons to both sides, depending on your point of view and your own personality.

[KnightofPhoenix]

David Gaider wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I did try that in real life.
A guy was crying about his pet who is dead right in front of a girlfriend of mine whose father passed away a few days before. Who is to say that he didn't care about his pet more than she loved her dad? I can't know. Nonetheless I requested that he either remains silent or he gets out of the room. And it went well.  

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. That "Duncan and all Grey Warden friends=dead pet"? Or that you weren't a jerk for silencing your friend's grief because you thought your other friend's grief was more valid? Even if you believe you weren't, I bet your friend with the dead pet might have felt differently.

Was I the jerk? Or was he the insensitive one?
The girl was about to cry. So yea, either he keeps quiet or goes cry somewhere else. Everyone in the room was annoyed by him.  But I guess we are all a bunch of jerks now right?

And he had his pet for 2 years. Maybe he loved his pet more than Alistair loved Duncan. I don't really care, he was annoying either way.

[David Gaider]

Apophis2412 wrote...
Was Alistair deluded then? Did he see the Grey Wardens as an order of noble knights? Something straight out of a fairy tale?

He did know about all of hthe gruesome deeds the GW have done in the past. Did he he chose to simply ignore all that? And if so, why? Because the GW were the only ones who treated him like Alistair, instead of the heir to the Theirin line?

I think it is more a case of wishful thinking. The Grey Wardens do have a noble legend, and Alistair was proud to be part of that. It is one thing to know about the hard actions that are required of you, and to intellectually agree with them... and quite another to be faced with the personal consequences of those actions.

It is very easy, I think, to lose respect for Alistair based on how he handles that moment when it occurs. The fact that he expects that his closest friends or lover should back him up rather than shatter his ideals (deserved or not, depending on how you view them) could give you plenty of reason to dislike him. But does he really do those things because he's a whiny baby who likes to complain? Like I said -- that kind of comment says more about the player than about Alistair.

[Skellimancer]

So Jory could not say no to helping the Grey Wardens and was killed but AListair was allowed to walk away during the blights main attack and be unpunished.



gotcha.

[Xandurpein]

David Gaider wrote...

In most other instances it seems like player dissatisfaction stems from the plot not going the way they want it to go. They use metagame knowledge to complain that they should be able to recruit Loghain and have him redeem himself in death against the Archdemon, and that Alistair should be okay with this even though nobody except Riordan knows at the time about that Final Solution and even Riordan doesn't know the confrontation with the Archdemon will come before the other Grey Wardens in Orlais have a chance to arrive. Recruiting Loghain at the Landsmeet is a possible notion, a way to get a good recruit, but not a life-or-death situation... yet. 

Thanks again for returning to us and explain things. I must say that while my original view of Alisitar was shaped a lot by the fact that I, not really intending it, got the result you describe as the "bad" one for him (i.e. "go to hell world"). Having spent a lot of time playing, as well as debating here, I still think his reaction was immature and wrong then, BUT even then, when he is at his worst I can readily understand his reaction on a human level, once I took time to think it over.

Ultimately I think I bring with me from that first play, the feeling that - oh my, I guess I didn't know him as much as I thought I did. I also wonder if not part of the problem is that, if you get Alistairs approval high enough, YOU the player, rather than Duncan, Eamon or Goldanna, becomes his family and that is part of why he feels so betrayed.

It's also fascinating to see how much people reveal about themselves when discussing the whole Landsmeet and the principal characters involved. It seems to touch something very deep in people's belief in truth, justice
and compassion, not to mention their ability to see other views than their own.

I think though that no matter what David Gaider or anyone else says this is going to be THE topic in discussing DO:A for years to come. I think it's just a tribute to a great story that so many peole feel so strongly about it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skellimancer wrote...

So Jory could not say no to helping the Grey Wardens and was killed but AListair was allowed to walk away during the blights main attack and be unpunished.

gotcha.

This.
My first PC didn't kill him since he was too patehtic and because my PC didn't want to start his reign upon bloodshed.
My 2nd PC killed him for exactly the same reason Jory was killed. You do not desert from the Grey Wardens and live.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 janvier 2010 - 08:51 .

[amethyst_rose2009]

David Gaider wrote...

Apophis2412 wrote...
Was Alistair deluded then? Did he see the Grey Wardens as an order of noble knights? Something straight out of a fairy tale?

He did know about all of hthe gruesome deeds the GW have done in the past. Did he he chose to simply ignore all that? And if so, why? Because the GW were the only ones who treated him like Alistair, instead of the heir to the Theirin line?

I think it is more a case of wishful thinking. The Grey Wardens do have a noble legend, and Alistair was proud to be part of that. It is one thing to know about the hard actions that are required of you, and to intellectually agree with them... and quite another to be faced with the personal consequences of those actions.

It is very easy, I think, to lose respect for Alistair based on how he handles that moment when it occurs. The fact that he expects that his closest friends or lover should back him up rather than shatter his ideals (deserved or not, depending on how you view them) could give you plenty of reason to dislike him. But does he really do those things because he's a whiny baby who likes to complain? Like I said -- that kind of comment says more about the player than about Alistair.

I think Alistair's reaction at the landsmeet is very understandable.  After everything that Loghain has done Alistair feels that your pc, whether you are his best friend or his lover, has betrayed him. I've never played it that way and never will, because I completely agree with Alistair, it is a betrayal of trust and friendship. 

[Skellimancer]

Damned Alistair and his fangirl army.

Modifié par Skellimancer, 19 janvier 2010 - 08:53 .

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Was I the jerk? Or was he the insensitive one?
The girl was about to cry. So yea, either he keeps quiet or goes cry somewhere else. Everyone in the room was annoyed by him.  But I guess we are all a bunch of jerks now right?

And he had his pet for 2 years. Maybe he loved his pet more than Alistair loved Duncan. I don't really care, he was annoying either way.

Did he know about her loss? If yes, he WAS insensitive. If not, however, you can´t blame him.

[KnightofPhoenix]

amethyst_rose2009 wrote...
I think Alistair's reaction at the landsmeet is very understandable.  After everything that Loghain has done Alistair feels that your pc, whether you are his best friend or his lover, has betrayed him. I've never played it that way and never will, because I completely agree with Alistair, it is a betrayal of trust and friendship. 

Isn't he betraying you then when he abandons you to fight the Blight on your own? Isn't he betraying Duncan's memory by refusing to fight the Blight?
This is exactly how Alistair thinks. He is always betrayed, but he never stops to think that maybe he is the betrayer.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 janvier 2010 - 08:55 .

[Dragon Age1103]

Sandtigress wrote...

Dragon Age1103 wrote...

I do not hate Alistair but I tend to dislike him more & more as the game progresses. I didn't even hate him after his childish actions at the Landsmeet but I did lose respect for him.
When I first met him I found him to be witty, funny, charming but after the landsmeet he lashed out like a spoiled child for the last time. He let his emotions get the better of him & destroy his judgment for what was best for his country, for Ferelden!
I wish i could of been the one to end his life, he deserved it for taking the same path as Loghain. Using some pathetic excuse to only bring harm to his country. Loghain was paranoid of the Orlesians & Alistair was too childish to let go of the past & stand for what was best for Ferelden. Because of his rash actions we lost a great Grey Warden but gained a legendary General. (depending on how you played it out.lqtm.)

But is taking Loghain into the Wardens necessarily the best thing for Ferelden?  I don't think there are any compelling reasons why it has to be that way.  In fact, I think its just as easy to see how letting Loghain live is just as bad for Ferelden as killing him would be.

Anora may make a big fuss over Alistair's emotional outburst, but that guy is her father.  Is she really any better for calling Alistair out to save her father's life?  I think you can see it both ways.

Most of my characters have seen Alistair's point after he lists off the numerous evil things that Loghain has done, and have gone with his decision.  That isn't to say that one hasn't tried to spare Loghain, and maybe another will.

But I really don't think its such a black and white decision - spare Loghain good for country, kill him bad for country.  There are pros and cons to both sides, depending on your point of view and your own personality.

  I can't agree that you can see it both ways. Loghain is not scheming at the Landsmeet after you defeat him. He admit he sees something in you he hasn't seen since Maric died. He holds much more value than Alistair, why?
   He saw that he let fear & paranoia get the best of him & that we(your character) are a HUGE asset to ending the blight b/c we are so strong & due to the influence we hold over others. Alistair would make a terrible king, he whines often, he can't let go that Duncan died plus he constantly blames himself effecting his judgment constantly. He is not old or wise nor is he a general of renown. He has very little to offer what we got from him(info, grey warden history, stories,) we can get in more detail from Riordin. He serves little to no purpose...he is loyal yes but he acts like a child all the time.
   Specifically to how the game plays out though it doesn't really matter if you take loghain b/c stat wise he is not superior to Alistiar nor do we gain a benefit from his experience as a general b/c we never use him for that he just joins our party. If we did though in my opinion he is clearly the better choice for Ferelden.

Modifié par Dragon Age1103, 19 janvier 2010 - 08:59 .