596 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tirigon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Was I the jerk? Or was he the insensitive one?
The girl was about to cry. So yea, either he keeps quiet or goes cry somewhere else. Everyone in the room was annoyed by him.  But I guess we are all a bunch of jerks now right?

And he had his pet for 2 years. Maybe he loved his pet more than Alistair loved Duncan. I don't really care, he was annoying either way.

Did he know about her loss? If yes, he WAS insensitive. If not, however, you can´t blame him.

He did. And it was the first time the girl got out of her house and the idiot thought now was the perfect time for all of us to listen to him moan.

[Ethical Scabs]

Skellimancer, you seem to really enjoy being on the other side of any argument David Gaider is involved in.

-----------

Allistair is my favorite character With that said, he shows signs of immaturity all throughout the game; of being unable to take the harsh consequences that being a warden entails, in addition to a smirking disengagement from reality.



There's a really good foreshadowing of his reaction in the Connor/Isolde issue. He can't make the hard choice that does wrong, even when he tries to be a Warden and say that the boy should MAYBE die.

[dangadget]

How "wise" can Loghain be, seeing as he caused the whole civil war to begin with?

I've never had a problem with Allistair, especially at teh Landsmeet.

Been to busy having fun killing Loghain.

Eah.

And.

Every.

Time.



Bastiche deserves everything he gets, even when I'm RPing a "bad" guy.

[Skellimancer]

Ethical Scabs wrote...

Skellimancer, you seem to really enjoy being on the other side of any argument David Gaider is involved in.

Thats because he usually aims his arguments at me!

[Jae Onasi]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

What a Twist wrote...
"Yeah only my entire family got killed in one night, i'm sorry you lost some guy you knew for a year or so, must be hard for you."

Try that out in real life the next time you meet someone who lost someone they've known for only six months but cared about deeply, and tell them that you lost someone you knew much longer and therefore your grief is more valid than theirs. See how that goes.

I did try that in real life.
A guy was crying about his pet who is dead right in front of a girlfriend of mine whose father passed away a few days before. Who is to say that he didn't care about his pet more than she loved her dad? I can't know. Nonetheless I requested that he either remains silent or he gets out of the room. And it went well.  

People experience grief in a variety of different ways.  I think the situation with the guy who lost his pet could have been handled in a manner that was more sensitive not only to the girlfriend but to the guy as well--perhaps just letting him know about the girlfriend's loss and letting him deal with it from there (if he didn't know about her loss), or  taking him aside and letting him express his grief privately, too.  Some people share grief by sharing stories of their losses, as well.  A loss is a loss--for some people, their pets are as close as their family members.  I've lost 3 cats over the last few years at ages 14, 15, and 21.  They'd been with us longer than my kids have, and losing them was very difficult for me, nearly as difficult as losing some of my human family members.  They were part of the family as much as, if not more so than, some of my human family. 

As for Alistair--are some of you uncomfortable with him expressing his grief and calling it 'whining' because you are uncomfortable dealing with death yourselves?  I'd be very interested to see how many of you who hate Alistair's mourning have experienced the death of someone extremely close to you.   It can take a very long time to come to terms with the loss of someone very close--it's not unusual for spouses to mourn for a good year.  With that in mind, and the close relationship Alistair had with Duncan, Alistair's mourning and his making mention of Duncan's death several times is entirely in character and quite normal. 

Modifié par Jae Onasi, 19 janvier 2010 - 09:00 .

[amethyst_rose2009]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

amethyst_rose2009 wrote...
I think Alistair's reaction at the landsmeet is very understandable.  After everything that Loghain has done Alistair feels that your pc, whether you are his best friend or his lover, has betrayed him. I've never played it that way and never will, because I completely agree with Alistair, it is a betrayal of trust and friendship. 

Isn't he betraying you then when he abandons you to fight the Blight on your own? Isn't he betraying Duncan's memory by refusing to fight the Blight?
This is exactly how Alistair thinks. He is always betrayed, but he never stops to think that maybe he is the betrayer.

I don't see Alistair as the betrayer at all.  The entire time you have travelled with him, you know his feelings toward Loghain, so by choosing Loghain over him, yeah I think that's a betrayal toward Alistair.  I do however wish you could go back to Alistair after Riordan has explained things and tell him your plan to sacrifice Loghain, but then it probably wouldn't matter.  The damage would have already been done.

[Apophis2412]

David Gaider wrote...

Apophis2412 wrote...
Was Alistair deluded then? Did he see the Grey Wardens as an order of noble knights? Something straight out of a fairy tale?

He did know about all of hthe gruesome deeds the GW have done in the past. Did he he chose to simply ignore all that? And if so, why? Because the GW were the only ones who treated him like Alistair, instead of the heir to the Theirin line?

I think it is more a case of wishful thinking. The Grey Wardens do have a noble legend, and Alistair was proud to be part of that. It is one thing to know about the hard actions that are required of you, and to intellectually agree with them... and quite another to be faced with the personal consequences of those actions.

The Grey Wardens were also the third group/organisation where Alistair didn't really fit in. First there was his childhood in Redcliffe what he resented because people only cared about him because he was the child of a king, not because of the person who he was. After that he was forcibly made a part of the Templars. He hated the discipline and the dogma and wanted to get out.

In comes Duncan who is impressed by Alistair's skills. The first person to be interested in the person Alistair, not the heir to the Theirin line. When he joined the Gw he probably felt that he didn't really fit in. Because for the first time people seemed to genuinaly care about Alistair the person he might have simply ignored the more 'evil'side of the GW. 

It is very easy, I think, to lose respect for Alistair based on how he handles that moment when it occurs. The fact that he expects that his closest friends or lover should back him up rather than shatter his ideals (deserved or not, depending on how you view them) could give you plenty of reason to dislike him. But does he really do those things because he's a whiny baby who likes to complain? Like I said -- that kind of comment says more about the player than about Alistair.

Some people just want companions to be mindless automatons with emotions. It makes no sense, I know.

[Maria Caliban]

David Gaider wrote...

Well, some people do seem to think it's out of character, however... I've actually read people saying "I've been able to boss him around in every other situation, why can't I boss him around NOW?" Which tells me they're thinking less about the character and more about their own needs -- "What about MEeee?" again.

I'm going to disagree with this. Alistair is sweet and charming, but he's a follower. The fact that he's a follower some up in several conversations. Moreover, as someone who played a 'good guy,' I never had Alistair complain or tell me I was doing something wrong. In fact, Alistair *liked it* when I killed as few people as possible.

The moment at the Landsmeet seemed wildly out of character to me. It would be like Morrigan suddenly getting angry and leaving the group because the PC didn't stop to save a puppy-dog.

Now, yes, I understand what happened. He loved Duncan, thought Loghain was a horrible man (he was right), and I seemed to be besmirching the Grey Wardens. It makes sense, but he was still showing a side of his personality that the game had never shown me previously. His behavior was wildly different than what I'd seen before, so it's not surprising that people find it out of character.

Now, are his actions inconvenient to the PC? Sure, especially if you’ve gotten Anora and Alistair together. Anora’s actions are also incredibly inconvenient, but no one says she’s acting out of character because from the start she’s a ‘my way or the highway’ sort.

[Skellimancer]

Apophis2412 wrote...


Some people just want companions to be mindless automatons with emotions. It makes no sense, I know.

He is a Grey Warden, he should act like one.

[goofygoff]

Apophis2412 wrote...

Alistair fangirls hate Loghain, because Alistair hates him. Loghain fans hate Alistair for wanting Loghain dead so badly.

I've noticed this from time to time and, as a fan of both, it amuses me to no end.

[David Gaider]

Skellimancer wrote...

Ethical Scabs wrote...

Skellimancer, you seem to really enjoy being on the other side of any argument David Gaider is involved in.

Thats because he usually aims his arguments at me!

You give yourself too much credit. Of course there is a comparison to be made between Jory and Alistair -- really, Alistair should not be able to walk away from the Grey Wardens, knowing what he knows. Did I suggest that you should not be able to reach the same conclusion?

If your argument is simply that you should be able to kill him regardless of the circumstance -- well, that hardly seems surprising. Perhaps you should make a mod for it?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Jae Onasi wrote...
With that in mind, and the close relationship Alistair had with Duncan, Alistair's mourning and his making mention of Duncan's death several times is entirely in character and quite normal. 

If he TRULY loved Duncan, would he EVER consider abandoning the fight against the Blight? Would he?
He didn't genuinely love Duncan for what he is. Alistair loves only himself and he wanted someone to take care of him. That was the only thing Duncan was for Alistair. Someone who shows affection to him. The father figure that he never had.

But did he truly love Duncan? If he did, he would never ever insult Duncan's memory by refusing to fight the blight. ever.  

[Sisimka]

I don't hate Alistair or Loghain and I always have a difficult time choosing between them at the Landsmeet. There are strong arguments for both and I've sided with both on different occasions. It's a hard thing to go in there and role play like you don't have all the answers, which is what I try to do with each and every character, its how I get the most out of every game. It's also is why each of my characters achieves a different ending.



I do have a point to contribute to this argument, however. I don't think Alistair's behaviour is so out of character at the landsmeet. I'm not going to outline my reasons, those who agree know them, those who don't agree don't care. What I think bothers most players is this: Alistair gets to act out and throw a tantrum and we don't. There are so many points in the game where I really felt my character wanted to either walk away, lay down and never get back up, or kill someone. And of course, the vast majority of the time I get to do neither - I gotta suck it up and move on to the next heart breaking decision.



So let Al have his tantrum and get over it, it's not his job to defeat the archdemon and save Ferelden, it's yours... (yes, yes, I KNOW we're not supposed to know that at the landsmeet, but if you were half the man (woman) you thought you were for even getting that far and still caring about the fate of Ferelden, don't you think you'd know that too?)

[melkathi]

David Gaider wrote...

I think it is more a case of wishful thinking. The Grey Wardens do have a noble legend, and Alistair was proud to be part of that. It is one thing to know about the hard actions that are required of you, and to intellectually agree with them... and quite another to be faced with the personal consequences of those actions.

It is very easy, I think, to lose respect for Alistair based on how he handles that moment when it occurs. The fact that he expects that his closest friends or lover should back him up rather than shatter his ideals (deserved or not, depending on how you view them) could give you plenty of reason to dislike him. But does he really do those things because he's a whiny baby who likes to complain? Like I said -- that kind of comment says more about the player than about Alistair.

I see it less a question of wether the ideals were deserved more a question of wether his ideals are honest. He did not have these ideals when Jory was executed. He sees it very matter of fact as a Joining with two deaths.
Personally I would have enjoyed slapping that silly amulet he gives you after the joining out of his hand - Daveth died, they murdered Jory and now I get a little pressie for living? But that is beside the point.
The point is: he has high ideals which do not get offended by dishonesty and murder and leaving a pregnant woman a widdow.
You can say that calling him various things says a lot about the players. Of course it does, choice of words always says something about the people who say/write them. But what action causes his ideals to be offended, say a great much about Alistair and his moral compass.

Modifié par melkathi, 19 janvier 2010 - 09:09 .

[Skellimancer]

David Gaider wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

Ethical Scabs wrote...

Skellimancer, you seem to really enjoy being on the other side of any argument David Gaider is involved in.

Thats because he usually aims his arguments at me!

You give yourself too much credit. Of course there is a comparison to be made between Jory and Alistair -- really, Alistair should not be able to walk away from the Grey Wardens, knowing what he knows. Did I suggest that you should not be able to reach the same conclusion?

If your argument is simply that you should be able to kill him regardless of the circumstance -- well, that hardly seems surprising. Perhaps you should make a mod for it?

Sure thing! how about a thrown knife in the back of the head?

His execution is enough.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

David Gaider wrote...
And as much as Alistair loved Duncan, there's little doubt in my mind that had Duncan lived there would have been some moments where Duncan might have shattered Alistair's illusions as well. Would Duncan have recruited Loghain? Now there's a thought. And no doubt Alistair would have been just as shattered.
 

So going on the principal say of Duncan swapping positions with the Player Warden and no doubt shattering Alistairs illusion of what the Wardens were. Would he still have reacted the same way or would he have been more subservient?

[Skellimancer]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Jae Onasi wrote...
With that in mind, and the close relationship Alistair had with Duncan, Alistair's mourning and his making mention of Duncan's death several times is entirely in character and quite normal. 

If he TRULY loved Duncan, would he EVER consider abandoning the fight against the Blight? Would he?
He didn't genuinely love Duncan for what he is. Alistair loves only himself and he wanted someone to take care of him. That was the only thing Duncan was for Alistair. Someone who shows affection to him. The father figure that he never had.

But did he truly love Duncan? If he did, he would never ever insult Duncan's memory by refusing to fight the blight. ever.  

Well put =P

[Dragon Age1103]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Jae Onasi wrote...
With that in mind, and the close relationship Alistair had with Duncan, Alistair's mourning and his making mention of Duncan's death several times is entirely in character and quite normal. 

If he TRULY loved Duncan, would he EVER consider abandoning the fight against the Blight? Would he?
He didn't genuinely love Duncan for what he is. Alistair loves only himself and he wanted someone to take care of him. That was the only thing Duncan was for Alistair. Someone who shows affection to him. The father figure that he never had.

But did he truly love Duncan? If he did, he would never ever insult Duncan's memory by refusing to fight the blight. ever.  

  I couldn't agree more. Alistair wouldn't turn his back on the one thing Duncan fought so hard for plus in Ostagar if you get to know Alistair you find out he was unhappy in the Chantry. Duncan recruited him & that satisfied Alistair. I'm not saying you shouldn't find happiness in what you do but Alistair was given the honor of watching over & protecting the mages. He could of befriended out shared regular friendly convos with the mages while being vigilant but no he wanted happiness some other way. Instead of making the best of what he had he wanted more just like at the landsmeet. He is a slefish child at heart.

[KnightofPhoenix]

amethyst_rose2009 wrote...
I don't see Alistair as the betrayer at all.  The entire time you have travelled with him, you know his feelings toward Loghain, so by choosing Loghain over him, yeah I think that's a betrayal toward Alistair.  I do however wish you could go back to Alistair after Riordan has explained things and tell him your plan to sacrifice Loghain, but then it probably wouldn't matter.  The damage would have already been done.

Grey Warden rule number 1: The Blight is the only important thing. You do not desert from the Grey Warden ranks NO MATTER WHAT. If you do you die.

We didn't choose Loghain over him. He forced us to choose between the two and by displaying such immaturity, I went for Loghain. And by further claiming that he will not aid the PC agains t the Blight, my disrespect turned into disgust. He is a traitor.

[Skellimancer]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
And as much as Alistair loved Duncan, there's little doubt in my mind that had Duncan lived there would have been some moments where Duncan might have shattered Alistair's illusions as well. Would Duncan have recruited Loghain? Now there's a thought. And no doubt Alistair would have been just as shattered.
 

So going on the principal say of Duncan swapping positions with the Player Warden and no doubt shattering Alistairs illusion of what the Wardens were. Would he still have reacted the same way or would he have been more subservient?

If the player had died and Duncan lived then Alistair wouldn't be so obsessed with killing Loghain, bear that in mind, fangirls.

[David Gaider]

Maria Caliban wrote...
Now, yes, I understand what happened. He loved Duncan, thought Loghain was a horrible man (he was right), and I seemed to be besmirching the Grey Wardens. It makes sense, but he was still showing a side of his personality that the game had never shown me previously. His behavior was wildly different than what I'd seen before, so it's not surprising that people find it out of character.

This is the part where I'm going to argue with you. Alistair cares very little about himself, and everything about what he sees as his duty. He sees being a Grey Warden as an honor, and it is his duty to avenge Duncan -- something he swore he would do. These are not character traits that came out of nowhere.

At the Landsmeet, suddenly he is confronted with the fact that what he thinks doesn't matter. Duncan is not going to be avenged. Perhaps you force him to become a King, or you take his worst enemy into the order and thus sully it in his mind forever. You -- the person he thought had his back -- suddenly betray him... and this is a character trait that comes out of nowhere?

What did you think  would happen? That he would make a snarky, disparaging remark and let it lie? Well, not this time... sometimes people do surprise you, and in this case finding himself a backbone and taking a stance could come as an unpleasant and inconvenient surprise for some people. But I completely disagree that it comes out of nowhere.

[Dragon Age1103]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

amethyst_rose2009 wrote...
I don't see Alistair as the betrayer at all.  The entire time you have travelled with him, you know his feelings toward Loghain, so by choosing Loghain over him, yeah I think that's a betrayal toward Alistair.  I do however wish you could go back to Alistair after Riordan has explained things and tell him your plan to sacrifice Loghain, but then it probably wouldn't matter.  The damage would have already been done.

Grey Warden rule number 1: The Blight is the only important thing. You do not desert from the Grey Warden ranks NO MATTER WHAT. If you do you die.

We didn't choose Loghain over him. He forced us to choose between the two and by displaying such immaturity, I went for Loghain. And by further claiming that he will not aid the PC agains t the Blight, my disrespect turned into disgust. He is a traitor.

   I agree again! lol. I know everything can't be simple black & white decision but Alistair broke his oath & he turned his back on his order along with his country. Death is taking it easy on him. It is much better than him leaving like a child b/c he didn't get his way only to later dispise himself for turning his back on his country, his order, & most importantly his mentor....Duncan!!!
 
  Alistair=Epic Fail!!!!   lol

[dangadget]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

amethyst_rose2009 wrote...
I don't see Alistair as the betrayer at all.  The entire time you have travelled with him, you know his feelings toward Loghain, so by choosing Loghain over him, yeah I think that's a betrayal toward Alistair.  I do however wish you could go back to Alistair after Riordan has explained things and tell him your plan to sacrifice Loghain, but then it probably wouldn't matter.  The damage would have already been done.

Grey Warden rule number 1: The Blight is the only important thing. You do not desert from the Grey Warden ranks NO MATTER WHAT. If you do you die.

We didn't choose Loghain over him. He forced us to choose between the two and by displaying such immaturity, I went for Loghain. And by further claiming that he will not aid the PC agains t the Blight, my disrespect turned into disgust. He is a traitor.

But you are again assuming that letting Loghain live is the only logical decision to make re. fighting the Blight.
I strongly disagree.
Given everything that the PC knows taht he's done up to the point of the Landsmeet, it is a pefectly logical other option to want him safely dead and out of the way so that the real business of dealing with the Blight can get underway.
Plus, he just needs to die.

[Skellimancer]

David Gaider wrote...


What did you think  would happen? That he would make a snarky, disparaging remark and let it lie? Well, not this time... sometimes people do surprise you, and in this case finding himself a backbone and taking a stance could come as an unpleasant and inconvenient surprise for some people. But I completely disagree that it comes out of nowhere.

Finding a backbone? he deserted the Grey Wardens at the worst possible time! You call that courage?

[mjohanson]

I like the "character" of all the DA characters. They have depth and their own personalities above and beyond what is needed for a game, I think. I like them because I don't like them sometimes. They take issue with you, can be confrontational, are annoying at times, are funny at others, and in general are very much like real people. Mr. Gaider and all the writers at Bioware have done a wonderful job of creating personalities it is fun to hate sometimes. That is the point, isn't it? Let Alistair be Alistair!