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[Ethical Scabs]

melkathi wrote...

Ilvra wrote...

Or maybe something about fighting a land war in Orlais...

How about this:

Alistair:
You never said anything about not killing Loghain.



Rhiodan:
Duncan recruited you to help us stop a blight. It's a prestigious line of work, with a long and glorious tradition.



Alistair:
I just don't think it's right, not killing Loghain.



Rhiodan:
Am I going MAD, or did the word "think" escape your lips? You were not recruited for your brains, you hippopotamic land mass.



Player:
I agree with Alistair.



Rhiodan:
Oh, the sot has spoken. What happens to him is not truly your concern.
I will recruit him. And remember this, never forget this: when Duncan found
you, you were so slobbering drunk, you couldn't buy Brandy!

[turning to Alistair]



Rhiodan:
And you: friendless, brainless, helpless, hopeless! Do you want me to send you back to where you were? Peeling potatoes in the Chantry!




Ok, the drunk&brandy part still needs some work... but you get the idea

Well played sir.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ethical Scabs wrote...
Okay.  Alistair inevitably respects his ethics (or his desire for revenge masquerading as 'the right thing to do') more than his Grey Warden oaths.  I agree with that 100%.

As I posted earlier,  he tries to be a hard-ass on the Connor/Isolde issue,  but doesn't have the gumption to handle the hard decision.  That scene right there foreshadows the whole Landsmeet debacle;  He's willing to do thte nitty-gritty required of a Warden,  but only if he sees it as a noble act.

Exactly. If everythign goes as he wants, then he fights the blight and is willing to sacrifice himself for it. But if he is, as you said, confronted with a hard choice that challenges his arrogant illusion of "duty", he quits. That's what he is at the end. A quitter. Like a child who doesn't like losing (at least he thinks he is losing, even if the team is winning), so decides not to play anymore. A blight is infinately more important than a game, but it's the same principle behind it.  

That is, imo, despicable. At the risk of turning this into another Loghain hate thread (it already is anyways), I believe that Loghain's redemption and sacrifice is the true heroic tale. Not Alistair's.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 janvier 2010 - 09:56 .

[Sandtigress]

melkathi wrote...

Ilvra wrote...

Or maybe something about fighting a land war in Orlais...

How about this:

Alistair:
You never said anything about not killing Loghain.



Rhiodan:
Duncan recruited you to help us stop a blight. It's a prestigious line of work, with a long and glorious tradition.



Alistair:
I just don't think it's right, not killing Loghain.



Rhiodan:
Am I going MAD, or did the word "think" escape your lips? You were not recruited for your brains, you hippopotamic land mass.



Player:
I agree with Alistair.



Rhiodan:
Oh, the sot has spoken. What happens to him is not truly your concern.
I will recruit him. And remember this, never forget this: when Duncan found
you, you were so slobbering drunk, you couldn't buy Brandy!

[turning to Alistair]



Rhiodan:
And you: friendless, brainless, helpless, hopeless! Do you want me to send you back to where you were? Peeling potatoes in the Chantry!




Ok, the drunk&brandy part still needs some work... but you get the idea

+20 approval 

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

I like Alistair just because of his faults.
All these "I do my duty, no matter what" Paladin type characters really bore me.

He fails at being even that. Apparently defeating the blight does not rank high up in his so called "duty".

I know. It seems you misunderstood me. I dislike the characters who do their duty even if it goes against what they want. I don´t believe in duty, I believe in free will. While Alistair´s decision might not be one worth of respect it´s definitely nice to see him - only once - doing what he wants.
I agree that it is a rather stupid move because the Blight is too severe a danger to ignore it, but I still respect him for doing his will. Finally he has grown up (or at least the it seems so before the epilogue proves us wrong).

Besides, from a metagaming POV it is nice to see someone like him. There are too many reluctant heroes in Fantasy. Since LotR (Aragorn there), if not even longer, EVERY Fantasy story has a minimum of one reluctant hero who does what has to be done though he doesn´t want to. It sort of amuses me to see one of the main characters in a Fantasy story to be a whiny fool who totally fails at everything unless you are a Human noble PC who gives him a good f*ck at night.
And his rose is cute, lol.

[Sandtigress]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ethical Scabs wrote...
Okay.  Alistair inevitably respects his ethics (or his desire for revenge masquerading as 'the right thing to do') more than his Grey Warden oaths.  I agree with that 100%.

As I posted earlier,  he tries to be a hard-ass on the Connor/Isolde issue,  but doesn't have the gumption to handle the hard decision.  That scene right there foreshadows the whole Landsmeet debacle;  He's willing to do thte nitty-gritty required of a Warden,  but only if he sees it as a noble act.

Exactly. If everythign goes as he wants, then he fight the blight and is willing to sacrifice himself for it. But if he is, as you said, confronted with a hard choice that challenges his arrogant illusion of "duty", he quits. That what he is at the end. A quitter. Like a child who doesn't like losing (at least he thinks he is losing, even if the team is winning), so decides not to play anymore.  

That is, imo, despicable. At the risk of turning this into into another Loghain hate thread (it already is anyways), I believe that Loghain's redemption and sacrifice is the true heroic tale. Not Alistair's.  

As Gaider said earlier though, no one knew that the Archdemon was going to rear its head so soon after Landsmeet.  You could see this as "Alistair got really angry (justifiably) said things that he may or may not have meant long term, stormed out in anger, but would have come to his senses and rejoined the fight had he had the time to do so".

And really, it depends on how Landsmeet goes as to how he storms off.  In my game, in a romance with the PC, he left totally heartbroken, and who could really blame him for not wanting, or being able, to fight alongside the guy who killed his surrogate father and all his surrogate family and the woman who chose that guy over the guy she said she was in love with?  I don't think I'd be able to pick up and fight right then either.   Maybe given some time.

Would he have come back had he known everything that was happening?  That's a totally different question.  Only Riordan knew that the Archdemon was attacking Denerim or that the Blight was marching that way, and you had very few days to prepare and double-time it over there.  There's no way to know what Alistair's character was doing in the mean time, or what was running through his head.

[Nonvita]

melkathi wrote...
But what Knight said.
By abandoning the fight against the blight, Alistair proves that the execution of Loghain would have had nothing to do with Justice or Avenging the deaths of the people who died at Ostagar (be that Cailan, Duncan or any of others there), but an act born of Alistair's selfish needs. He wishes to kill Loghain not for Duncan, but for himself. But even in his one moment of "showing backbone" he ultimately is a coward, because he hides his true motives behind all the talk about justice and duty.

But I think a lot of people are giving him too much flack for it. He cared deeply about Duncan--and though maybe he never actually understood Duncan, which is indeed a problem, I don't think you can question his affection toward him--so for good or bad one of his goals after Ostagar did become revenge against Loghain for "letting Duncan die."

I just picture if something similar were to happen to my human noble. Tell her, after everything she's gone through, that Howe should live and become a Grey Warden to fight alongside her and what would she do? She'd be gone in a heartbeat because half of what she now lives for is revenge against him. Any sort of dedication to the Grey Wardens, commitment to Alistair, etc could not trump that feeling. Clearly people can play the character in different ways, but I don't think that's an unreasonable scenario.

Now maybe you could say that Alistair has no right to be like that because he was a Grey Warden first and he's the one who loves them so much, but I think that's a double standard. Obviously Alistair has double standards of his own (everyone does), but forcing him to fit what YOU think is right hardly makes you more honorable. I only think the ordeal makes him a more realistic character.

I have plenty of problems with Alistair, but I think calling him cowardly, selfish, inconsistent, poorly written, etc etc are poor responses.

Modifié par Nonvita, 19 janvier 2010 - 10:00 .

[Tirigon]

melkathi wrote...

Ilvra wrote...

Or maybe something about fighting a land war in Orlais...

How about this:

Alistair:
You never said anything about not killing Loghain.



Rhiodan:
Duncan recruited you to help us stop a blight. It's a prestigious line of work, with a long and glorious tradition.



Alistair:
I just don't think it's right, not killing Loghain.



Rhiodan:
Am I going MAD, or did the word "think" escape your lips? You were not recruited for your brains, you hippopotamic land mass.



Player:
I agree with Alistair.



Rhiodan:
Oh, the sot has spoken. What happens to him is not truly your concern.
I will recruit him. And remember this, never forget this: when Duncan found
you, you were so slobbering drunk, you couldn't buy Brandy!

[turning to Alistair]



Rhiodan:
And you: friendless, brainless, helpless, hopeless! Do you want me to send you back to where you were? Peeling potatoes in the Chantry!




Ok, the drunk&brandy part still needs some work... but you get the idea

You know, I somehow felt the wish to kill Riordan together with Loghain all the time. You have shown me why.

*murmurs* Riordan...... F*cking Orlaisian ******, die....

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sandtigress wrote...
As Gaider said earlier though, no one knew that the Archdemon was going to rear its head so soon after Landsmeet.  You could see this as "Alistair got really angry (justifiably) said things that he may or may not have meant long term, stormed out in anger, but would have come to his senses and rejoined the fight had he had the time to do so".

And really, it depends on how Landsmeet goes as to how he storms off.  In my game, in a romance with the PC, he left totally heartbroken, and who could really blame him for not wanting, or being able, to fight alongside the guy who killed his surrogate father and all his surrogate family and the woman who chose that guy over the guy she said she was in love with?  I don't think I'd be able to pick up and fight right then either.   Maybe given some time.

Would he have come back had he known everything that was happening?  That's a totally different question.  Only Riordan knew that the Archdemon was attacking Denerim or that the Blight was marching that way, and you had very few days to prepare and double-time it over there.  There's no way to know what Alistair's character was doing in the mean time, or what was running through his head.

No, the Grey Wardens sensed that the Archdemon was making his move, via the dreams. We didn't know when, where or how, but we knew it was soon enough. It was not the perfect time to desert.

And what kind of excuse is that?
"I hate you all, so I am going to take a break from you for a while, then come back. Hopefully the blight hasn't killed you all by the time I come back". ?! Seriously? That's makes it sound even worse.

Plus, the whole point of ending the civil war is to take the fight to the archdemon and not wait for him to just come by and visit.  Either way, he abandonned his brothers, his nation, his people and his purpose as a Warden.

And awwww "The woman I thought who loved me betrayed me!! Waaaah. So I am going to leave for a while, despite the fact that she NEEDS me more than ever. But I don't care, she betrayed me. I thought she loved me?! Waaaah".
Please. The only thing I would say to him is: stfu.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 janvier 2010 - 10:06 .

[What a Twist]

David Gaider wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
Now, yes, I understand what happened. He loved Duncan, thought Loghain was a horrible man (he was right), and I seemed to be besmirching the Grey Wardens. It makes sense, but he was still showing a side of his personality that the game had never shown me previously. His behavior was wildly different than what I'd seen before, so it's not surprising that people find it out of character.

This is the part where I'm going to argue with you. Alistair cares very little about himself, and everything about what he sees as his duty. He sees being a Grey Warden as an honor, and it is his duty to avenge Duncan -- something he swore he would do. These are not character traits that came out of nowhere.

At the Landsmeet, suddenly he is confronted with the fact that what he thinks doesn't matter. Duncan is not going to be avenged. Perhaps you force him to become a King, or you take his worst enemy into the order and thus sully it in his mind forever. You -- the person he thought had his back -- suddenly betray him... and this is a character trait that comes out of nowhere?

What did you think  would happen? That he would make a snarky, disparaging remark and let it lie? Well, not this time... sometimes people do surprise you, and in this case finding himself a backbone and taking a stance could come as an unpleasant and inconvenient surprise for some people. But I completely disagree that it comes out of nowhere.

Well thats exactly what grey wardens do, they will take ANYONE no matter what. Just look at how duncan joined the grey wardens. Duncan would have even wanted you to recruit his betrayer.

Yeah there are aspects of alistair himself that have to be taken into account, but an option to talk him out of it would have been awesome. He would have to be near +100 and you'd need tier 5, but the option would have been better. I would love to see a mod, but getting the voice acting done and the changes to the story in general would be amazingly hard to do.

[Maria Caliban]

David Gaider wrote...

This is the part where I'm going to argue with you. Alistair cares very little about himself, and everything about what he sees as his duty. He sees being a Grey Warden as an honor, and it is his duty to avenge Duncan -- something he swore he would do. These are not character traits that came out of nowhere.

At the Landsmeet, suddenly he is confronted with the fact that what he thinks doesn't matter. Duncan is not going to be avenged. Perhaps you force him to become a King, or you take his worst enemy into the order and thus sully it in his mind forever. You -- the person he thought had his back -- suddenly betray him... and this is a character trait that comes out of nowhere?

What did you think  would happen? That he would make a snarky, disparaging remark and let it lie? Well, not this time... sometimes people do surprise you, and in this case finding himself a backbone and taking a stance could come as an unpleasant and inconvenient surprise for some people. But I completely disagree that it comes out of nowhere.

We’re agreeing more than disagreeing here. I understand why Alistair did why he did and think it fit the character. People have lines they simply don’t cross and this was Alistair’s.

However, you suggested that people who see Alistair as acting OOC were doing it because it inconvenienced them. I think the nature of that situation might cause more resentment towards Alistair than a less important situation would have, but I don’t think it’s just because people are being selfish and want everything to circle around their character.

If you play a good character, this is the only time you see Alistair behave this way. He’s spent the last 70 hours being a laid back and snarky guy who approves of everything you’ve done and willingly follows you because he’s not a decision maker. Then POW, he’s angry and you have to do what he wants or he’s leaving.

The first time I played the game, this was a 180 to every other interaction I’d had with Alistair.

Morrigan does the same thing: give me a god baby or I’m leaving. I’ve heard no one describe this as out of character. Anora says ‘support me in the Landsmeet or I won’t help you.’ Again, no one says that’s out of character.

That doesn’t mean I think he should sit back and demurely take it as you let Loghain live and induct him into the Grey Wardens, but I think people who find Alistair’s behavior out of character are basing that on more than a desire for obedience and convenience from every NPC.

[Tirigon]

You shouldn´t condemn Alistair for his childish attitude. Everyone was like him once.

Ok, most people quit that way of thinking at about the time they quit sucking their thumbs, but...... maybe Alistair still sucks his thumbs when he´s sad? I would not be surprised.

[David Gaider]

What a Twist wrote...
Yeah there are aspects of alistair himself that have to be taken into account, but an option to talk him out of it would have been awesome. He would have to be near +100 and you'd need tier 5, but the option would have been better. I would love to see a mod, but getting the voice acting done and the changes to the story in general would be amazingly hard to do.

And from where I'm coming from, I say there's some things you shouldn't be able to convince a character to do no matter what your approval rating is. In fact, I would say that from Alistair's perspective your high approval means you should be backing him up -- after all the things you've done, couldn't you see it his way just this once? Making characters too malleable, in my opinion, makes them not human.

Though, once again, Alistair feeling the way he does shouldn't necessarily mean you won't be angry or disappointed in him -- or even want him dead. But I would disagree that, in this case, he would ever back down. Stupid as you think his reasons might be, they're his.

The fact that an Alistair doesn't come back later once it becomes apparent that the confrontation in Denerim is going to happen right away before the Orlesian Wardens can arrive -- that's where I personally think Alistair did the clearly wrong thing. In my mind, it would be his foolish pride getting in the way at that point. As someone else said, he let his thirst for vengeance corrupt him in much the way that Loghain had been corrupted -- absolutely true. And intentional.

Perhaps someone might think it was poorly conveyed, I don't know. I'm all too familiar with the inability to control the narrative completely in such a large game, but that was the intent.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

What a Twist wrote...

Well thats exactly what grey wardens do, they will take ANYONE no matter what. Just look at how duncan joined the grey wardens. Duncan would have even wanted you to recruit his betrayer.

Yeah there are aspects of alistair himself that have to be taken into account, but an option to talk him out of it would have been awesome. He would have to be near +100 and you'd need tier 5, but the option would have been better. I would love to see a mod, but getting the voice acting done and the changes to the story in general would be amazingly hard to do.

Yes but as Mr Gaider has pointed out, Alistair is living in an illusionary world believing the Wardens to be just and proper. He even pointed out what you said in that Duncan himself in that situation would've most likely shattered Alistair's illusion of the Wardens.

The interesting question is how Alistair would have reacted had Duncan been in the players position.

Although I just thought of another question for Mr Gaider.

What would Duncan have thought of Eamon's idea to put Alistair forward as King?

[melkathi]

Nonvita wrote...

But I think a lot of people are giving him too much flack for it. He cared deeply about Duncan--and though maybe he never actually understood Duncan, which is indeed a problem, I don't think you can question his affection toward him--so for good or bad one of his goals after Ostagar did become revenge against Loghain for "letting Duncan die."

I just picture if something similar were to happen to my human noble. Tell her, after everything she's gone through, that Howe should live and become a Grey Warden to fight alongside her and what would she do? She'd be gone in a heartbeat because half of what she now lives for is revenge against him. Any sort of dedication to the Grey Wardens, commitment to Alistair, etc could not trump that feeling. Clearly people can play the character in different ways, but I don't think that's an unreasonable scenario.

Now maybe you could say that Alistair has no right to be like that because he was a Grey Warden first and he's the one who loves them so much, but I think that's a double standard. Obviously Alistair has double standards of his own (everyone does), but forcing him to fit what YOU think is right hardly makes you more honorable. I only think the ordeal makes him a more realistic character.

I have plenty of problems with Alistair, but I think calling him cowardly, selfish, inconsistent, poorly written, etc etc are poor responses.

I haven't seen anyone call Alistair poorly written. At least not in a long time. I'll just assume you put that in a generic list of things that wasn't aimed at anyone in this  discussion (the past few pages of it anyway)
The other things you consider poor responses though... it seems that if people use any word that would ascribe to his character a negative attribute, that is in your view a poor response?

I do not see where players who have sacrificed everything, have double standards when they expect Alistair to live up to his word? And his word was that stopping the blight is the most important thing. His word was that he was happy to be in the grey wardens, that the grey wardens had an important duty. His word was that the archdemon must be stopped. We are not forcing him to fit what we think is right, we are holding him to his word. There is no double standard. Especially for a human noble who did not stay with their parents, who did not go seeking Fergus and who infiltrated Arl Howe's estate not with the intention of killing him, but with the intention of sneaking Anora out of there.
No, there is no double standard. Especially not for a human noble. After Ostagar the human puts the whole personal matter aside till after the blight. Expecting the person who unlike you is glad to be a warden to do the same, is not a double standard. It's not even truly unfair, since it was Alistair who set the standards of duty so high.

Or, to use the quotes that have made their home in this thread:
Double Standard. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[Maria Caliban]

What a Twist wrote...
Well thats exactly what grey wardens do, they will take ANYONE no matter what. Just look at how duncan joined the grey wardens. Duncan would have even wanted you to recruit his betrayer.

I don't know about that. I think Duncan would have conscripted Ser Cauthrien of the two-shot kill and let Loghain hang.

Yeah there are aspects of alistair himself that have to be taken into account, but an option to talk him out of it would have been awesome. He would have to be near +100 and you'd need tier 5, but the option would have been better. I would love to see a mod, but getting the voice acting done and the changes to the story in general would be amazingly hard to do.

I don't think it would have been 'awesome.' While I've often joked that someone with a high enough persuasion ought to be able to sleep with anyone, that was a joke. People have lines. People have things they won't do and things they won't go without. These things are not always rational or the best.

[KnightofPhoenix]

David Gaider wrote...
 As someone else said, he let his thirst for vengeance corrupt him in much the way that Loghain had been corrupted -- absolutely true. And intentional.

Perhaps someone might think it was poorly conveyed, I don't know. I'm all too familiar with the inability to control the narrative completely in such a large game, but that was the intent.

I think it was conveyed pretty well.
But there is a difference between him and Loghain. Loghain was having delusions, there is no doubt, and maybe even paranoia. But he NEVER abandoned Ferelden.
Alistair, on the otherhand, abandoned everything that Duncan, the man he claims to love, stood for.  

[David Gaider]

Maria Caliban wrote...
If you play a good character, this is the only time you see Alistair behave this way. He’s spent the last 70 hours being a laid back and snarky guy who approves of everything you’ve done and willingly follows you because he’s not a decision maker. Then POW, he’s angry and you have to do what he wants or he’s leaving.

I'll point out that you say "if you play a good character". If you play a good character, he does agree with you. You reinforce his belief that the Grey Wardens exist to do good, and consist of good people fighting for what is right. In fact, if you saved both Connor and Isolde at Redcliffe he thinks you've done better than he thought possible. Going into the Landsmeet, he would have assumed that you were there to do what was right -- and so, yes, what happened would have come as a rude shock to him as much as to you. But out of character? Just because Alistair was agreeing with you previously does not mean that it is his character to do so.

[Wesley Wyndam Price]

Alistair thinks the Brood Mother is an incredible woman

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sandtigress wrote...
As Gaider said earlier though, no one knew that the Archdemon was going to rear its head so soon after Landsmeet.  You could see this as "Alistair got really angry (justifiably) said things that he may or may not have meant long term, stormed out in anger, but would have come to his senses and rejoined the fight had he had the time to do so".

And really, it depends on how Landsmeet goes as to how he storms off.  In my game, in a romance with the PC, he left totally heartbroken, and who could really blame him for not wanting, or being able, to fight alongside the guy who killed his surrogate father and all his surrogate family and the woman who chose that guy over the guy she said she was in love with?  I don't think I'd be able to pick up and fight right then either.   Maybe given some time.

Would he have come back had he known everything that was happening?  That's a totally different question.  Only Riordan knew that the Archdemon was attacking Denerim or that the Blight was marching that way, and you had very few days to prepare and double-time it over there.  There's no way to know what Alistair's character was doing in the mean time, or what was running through his head.

No, the Grey Wardens sensed that the Archdemon was making his move, via the dreams. We didn't know when, where or how, but we knew it was soon enough. It was not the perfect time to desert.

And what kind of excuse is that?
"I hate you all, so I am going to take a break from you for a while, then come back. Hopefully the blight hasn't killed you all by the time I come back". ?! Seriously? That's makes it sound even worse.

Plus, the whole point of ending the civil war is to take the fight to the archdemon and not wait for him to just come by and visit.  Either way, he abandonned his brothers, his nation, his people and his purpose as a Warden.

And awwww "The woman I thought who loved me betrayed me!! Waaaah. So I am going to leave for a while, despite the fact that she NEEDS me more than ever. But I don't care, she betrayed me. I thought she loved me?! Waaaah".
Please. The only thing I would say to him is: stfu.

Let's look at the things Loghain did: he retreated at Ostagar, possibly leading to the deaths of all the Grey Wardens, including Alistair's mentor and father-figure. Now, there's no way of knowing exactly what would have happened had he fought, but the king was killed in that battle. You can make the argument that Loghain indirectly committed regicide and not only that, but let his son-in-law die. He refused to call for help from Orlais because of his parnanioa. He lied about Ostagar and put bounties on the heads of the remaining Grey Wardens. He hired an assassin to kill the Grey Wardens. He poisoned Arl Eamon because he knew he could command power in the Landsmeet and oppose him.

I'm not necessarily surprised to see that the PC would say "okay sure, be a Grey Warden" (especially playing a HN origin because of what Howe represents) but I am surprised that anyone would be surprised by Alistair's reaction to that. Put the shoe on the other foot and Howe in Loghain's position with Alistair deciding that Howe should live and become a Grey Warden, and I'd storm out of the Landsmeet too.

Unless you didn't care about your family at all, playing a HN origin has strong parallels to Alistair's journey. You want to see justice done for the people who caused you pain.

Disclaimer: I haven't been playing long, so HN is the only origin story I've played.

[David Gaider]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...
What would Duncan have thought of Eamon's idea to put Alistair forward as King?

He would have probably argued that a Grey Warden has no business being a king -- or a king a Grey Warden. Possibly by then he might have advised that the Grey Wardens leave for Orlais and meet up with the Grey Wardens there -- abandoning Ferelden, as much as it would have pained him to do so.

Or so occurs to me off the top of my head, anyway.

[Skellimancer]

Monica21 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sandtigress wrote...
As Gaider said earlier though, no one knew that the Archdemon was going to rear its head so soon after Landsmeet.  You could see this as "Alistair got really angry (justifiably) said things that he may or may not have meant long term, stormed out in anger, but would have come to his senses and rejoined the fight had he had the time to do so".

And really, it depends on how Landsmeet goes as to how he storms off.  In my game, in a romance with the PC, he left totally heartbroken, and who could really blame him for not wanting, or being able, to fight alongside the guy who killed his surrogate father and all his surrogate family and the woman who chose that guy over the guy she said she was in love with?  I don't think I'd be able to pick up and fight right then either.   Maybe given some time.

Would he have come back had he known everything that was happening?  That's a totally different question.  Only Riordan knew that the Archdemon was attacking Denerim or that the Blight was marching that way, and you had very few days to prepare and double-time it over there.  There's no way to know what Alistair's character was doing in the mean time, or what was running through his head.

No, the Grey Wardens sensed that the Archdemon was making his move, via the dreams. We didn't know when, where or how, but we knew it was soon enough. It was not the perfect time to desert.

And what kind of excuse is that?
"I hate you all, so I am going to take a break from you for a while, then come back. Hopefully the blight hasn't killed you all by the time I come back". ?! Seriously? That's makes it sound even worse.

Plus, the whole point of ending the civil war is to take the fight to the archdemon and not wait for him to just come by and visit.  Either way, he abandonned his brothers, his nation, his people and his purpose as a Warden.

And awwww "The woman I thought who loved me betrayed me!! Waaaah. So I am going to leave for a while, despite the fact that she NEEDS me more than ever. But I don't care, she betrayed me. I thought she loved me?! Waaaah".
Please. The only thing I would say to him is: stfu.

Let's look at the things Loghain did: he retreated at Ostagar, possibly leading to the deaths of all the Grey Wardens, including Alistair's mentor and father-figure. Now, there's no way of knowing exactly what would have happened had he fought, but the king was killed in that battle. You can make the argument that Loghain indirectly committed regicide and not only that, but let his son-in-law die. He refused to call for help from Orlais because of his parnanioa. He lied about Ostagar and put bounties on the heads of the remaining Grey Wardens. He hired an assassin to kill the Grey Wardens. He poisoned Arl Eamon because he knew he could command power in the Landsmeet and oppose him.

I'm not necessarily surprised to see that the PC would say "okay sure, be a Grey Warden" (especially playing a HN origin because of what Howe represents) but I am surprised that anyone would be surprised by Alistair's reaction to that. Put the shoe on the other foot and Howe in Loghain's position with Alistair deciding that Howe should live and become a Grey Warden, and I'd storm out of the Landsmeet too.

Unless you didn't care about your family at all, playing a HN origin has strong parallels to Alistair's journey. You want to see justice done for the people who caused you pain.

Disclaimer: I haven't been playing long, so HN is the only origin story I've played.

Do you seriously think Howe would join the Grey Wardens? sure it would save his life (if he lived) but he would lose all his titles in the process, and i don't know.. being his superior could be better vengeance than beating his head in with a sword.

[What a Twist]

David Gaider wrote...

What a Twist wrote...
Yeah there are aspects of alistair himself that have to be taken into account, but an option to talk him out of it would have been awesome. He would have to be near +100 and you'd need tier 5, but the option would have been better. I would love to see a mod, but getting the voice acting done and the changes to the story in general would be amazingly hard to do.

And from where I'm coming from, I say there's some things you shouldn't be able to convince a character to do no matter what your approval rating is. In fact, I would say that from Alistair's perspective your high approval means you should be backing him up -- after all the things you've done, couldn't you see it his way just this once? Making characters too malleable, in my opinion, makes them not human.

Though, once again, Alistair feeling the way he does shouldn't necessarily mean you won't be angry or disappointed in him -- or even want him dead. But I would disagree that, in this case, he would ever back down. Stupid as you think his reasons might be, they're his.

The fact that an Alistair doesn't come back later once it becomes apparent that the confrontation in Denerim is going to happen right away before the Orlesian Wardens can arrive -- that's where I personally think Alistair did the clearly wrong thing. In my mind, it would be his foolish pride getting in the way at that point. As someone else said, he let his thirst for vengeance corrupt him in much the way that Loghain had been corrupted -- absolutely true. And intentional.

Perhaps someone might think it was poorly conveyed, I don't know. I'm all too familiar with the inability to control the narrative completely in such a large game, but that was the intent.

The fact that he left what what bothers most. But if you meant ti to seem that way, then kudos to you, it was so well done that the character actually suprised me. I don't see that much, and when I do its usually because they had to change the character to fit the story suddenly.

[SuperMedbh]

I remember thinking "Wow" when Alistair executed Loghain in my first playthrough. He's such a nice fellow, kind and caring-- and then there was this moment of absolute hate.



But it rang so true. Loghain had killed or tried to kill pretty much everything and everyone who mattered to Alistair. If Alistair had just shrugged his shoulders, he would have really been the pushover momma's boy that some seem to think he is.



It was like seeing the iron backbone he really had, and truthfully, made him an even more interesting character. Sure, he acts the part of the flippant school boy, but let's not forget that he's out there risking his life face to face with abominations and dark spawn with nothing but a big knife and a tin suit to protect him. Alistair is an intriguing character to say the least, and one with more depth than he appears to have at first glance.

[Skellimancer]

David Gaider wrote...

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...
What would Duncan have thought of Eamon's idea to put Alistair forward as King?

He would have probably argued that a Grey Warden has no business being a king -- or a king a Grey Warden. Possibly by then he might have advised that the Grey Wardens leave for Orlais and meet up with the Grey Wardens there -- abandoning Ferelden, as much as it would have pained him to do so.

Or so occurs to me off the top of my head, anyway.

So Duncan was a coward too?

Awesome.

[SinYang]

Sandtigress wrote...
As Gaider said earlier though, no one knew that the Archdemon was going to rear its head so soon after Landsmeet.  You could see this as "Alistair got really angry (justifiably) said things that he may or may not have meant long term, stormed out in anger, but would have come to his senses and rejoined the fight had he had the time to do so".

Er what game are you playing? the Archdemon appears to your party at Deep roads flying "outside".
We did indeed know it was coming by landsmeet, if not before then.