596 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Monica21
Loghain did all this for Ferelden, and not for anythign else. He wasn't good at it, but the intention to save Ferelden was there. So why not channel that passion into somethign contructive for a change?

About Howe. If Riordan said that Howe should be made Grey Warden, I would be angry but I would certainly not storm out and abandon everyone. But I would ask that Howe fights alongside Riordan and not alongside me, because I might want to kill him. And that's it. 

I am not saying I am surprised that Alistair did this. I never thought he was a real Warden in the first place. I didn't respect him much before eihter. So when he did that, I was like "Yep, that's Alistair". 
It's not out of character. This is Alistair. And I do not like him. It's that simple. It's not because he was poorly written or because he was out of character. He was perfectly in character. And I dislike his character. That's my opinion.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 janvier 2010 - 10:33 .

[Skellimancer]

SinYang wrote...

Sandtigress wrote...
As Gaider said earlier though, no one knew that the Archdemon was going to rear its head so soon after Landsmeet.  You could see this as "Alistair got really angry (justifiably) said things that he may or may not have meant long term, stormed out in anger, but would have come to his senses and rejoined the fight had he had the time to do so".

Er what game are you playing? the Archdemon appears to your party at Deep roads flying "outside".
We did indeed know it was coming by landsmeet, if not before then.

He might have been off out for a picnic!

[melkathi]

David Gaider wrote...

The fact that an Alistair doesn't come back later once it becomes apparent that the confrontation in Denerim is going to happen right away before the Orlesian Wardens can arrive -- that's where I personally think Alistair did the clearly wrong thing. In my mind, it would be his foolish pride getting in the way at that point. As someone else said, he let his thirst for vengeance corrupt him in much the way that Loghain had been corrupted -- absolutely true. And intentional.

You know, when I woke up today it was with the thought:

By the time the Archdemon marched on Denerim. Even if Alistair wanted to hook up with the (rest of the) Wardens, how could he do that? There is a blight between him and the allied forces. If he wasn't too drunk, passed out in a corner, he probably was fighting during the battle of Denerim. Just somewhere else.
Of course, one would have expected to see him on the front line, trying to hold the main gate. Or failing that, joining up at the top of Fort Drakon.
Or even trying to protect his family in the Market District...
But I guess Goldana and her kids weren't that important? Or was he evaquating them? Because I remember killing a number of Ogres in front of her house.

[Monica21]

melkathi wrote...
I do not see where players who have sacrificed everything, have double standards when they expect Alistair to live up to his word? And his word was that stopping the blight is the most important thing. His word was that he was happy to be in the grey wardens, that the grey wardens had an important duty. His word was that the archdemon must be stopped. We are not forcing him to fit what we think is right, we are holding him to his word. There is no double standard. Especially for a human noble who did not stay with their parents, who did not go seeking Fergus and who infiltrated Arl Howe's estate not with the intention of killing him, but with the intention of sneaking Anora out of there.
No, there is no double standard. Especially not for a human noble. After Ostagar the human puts the whole personal matter aside till after the blight. Expecting the person who unlike you is glad to be a warden to do the same, is not a double standard. It's not even truly unfair, since it was Alistair who set the standards of duty so high.

Or, to use the quotes that have made their home in this thread:
Double Standard. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

And this is where I'll disagree with you. At the Landsmeet, you've already been able to exact justice from Howe and Alistair hasn't. My character didn't "put everything aside" and had no intention of doing so. She waited until an opportunity presented itself. In my mind, if that happened after the Archdemon was killed then that's when it would be, but I would have made sure to kill Howe. Alistair had no such opportunity before the Landsmeet.

[SinYang]

Skellimancer wrote...
He might have been off out for a picnic!

With Alistair no doubt  so they could discuss how to divide the kingdom.

On Loghain.
Whos to say he would have lived through the joining ritual?, thats alot of metagaming on Alistairs part.

Modifié par SinYang, 19 janvier 2010 - 10:42 .

[Tirigon]

Skellimancer wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...
What would Duncan have thought of Eamon's idea to put Alistair forward as King?

He would have probably argued that a Grey Warden has no business being a king -- or a king a Grey Warden. Possibly by then he might have advised that the Grey Wardens leave for Orlais and meet up with the Grey Wardens there -- abandoning Ferelden, as much as it would have pained him to do so.

Or so occurs to me off the top of my head, anyway.

So Duncan was a coward too?

Awesome.

No. He would have done what a true Grey Warden does - "The Grey Wardens sacrificed EVERYTHING to stem the tide of Darkness". (Intro movie).

If this includes an entire country, so what? It´s the Grey Warden´s goal to stop the blight, not to save country smelling of wet dog.
Yea, pretty shocking to see they are douchebags sometimes, isn´t it?

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Monica21
Loghain did all this for Ferelden, and not for anythign else. He wasn't good at it, but the intention to save Ferelden was there. So why not channel that passion into somethign contructive for a change?

About Howe. If Riordan said that Howe should be made Grey Warden, I would be angry but I would certainly not storm out and abandon everyone. But I would ask that Howe fights alongside Riordan and not alongside me, because I might want to kill him. And that's it. 

I am not saying I am surprised that Alistair did this. I never thought he was a real Warden in the first place. I didn't respect him much before eihter. So when he did that, I was like "Yep, that's Alistair". 
It's not out of character. This is Alistair. And I do not like him. It's that simple. It's not because he was poorly written or because he was out of character. He was perfectly in character. And I dislike his character. That's my opinion.  

His intention to save Ferelden ended with more destruction and loss of life than was necessary. Who's to say that he would have been any better at being a Grey Warden? Whether it's constructive or not, my character didn't trust him, not only because she is a Grey Warden, but also because of Howe's influence on him.

As for Howe, I suppose it's all in the role playing. My character would have killed Howe before she let him become a Grey Warden.

[Monica21]

Skellimancer wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sandtigress wrote...
As Gaider said earlier though, no one knew that the Archdemon was going to rear its head so soon after Landsmeet.  You could see this as "Alistair got really angry (justifiably) said things that he may or may not have meant long term, stormed out in anger, but would have come to his senses and rejoined the fight had he had the time to do so".

And really, it depends on how Landsmeet goes as to how he storms off.  In my game, in a romance with the PC, he left totally heartbroken, and who could really blame him for not wanting, or being able, to fight alongside the guy who killed his surrogate father and all his surrogate family and the woman who chose that guy over the guy she said she was in love with?  I don't think I'd be able to pick up and fight right then either.   Maybe given some time.

Would he have come back had he known everything that was happening?  That's a totally different question.  Only Riordan knew that the Archdemon was attacking Denerim or that the Blight was marching that way, and you had very few days to prepare and double-time it over there.  There's no way to know what Alistair's character was doing in the mean time, or what was running through his head.

No, the Grey Wardens sensed that the Archdemon was making his move, via the dreams. We didn't know when, where or how, but we knew it was soon enough. It was not the perfect time to desert.

And what kind of excuse is that?
"I hate you all, so I am going to take a break from you for a while, then come back. Hopefully the blight hasn't killed you all by the time I come back". ?! Seriously? That's makes it sound even worse.

Plus, the whole point of ending the civil war is to take the fight to the archdemon and not wait for him to just come by and visit.  Either way, he abandonned his brothers, his nation, his people and his purpose as a Warden.

And awwww "The woman I thought who loved me betrayed me!! Waaaah. So I am going to leave for a while, despite the fact that she NEEDS me more than ever. But I don't care, she betrayed me. I thought she loved me?! Waaaah".
Please. The only thing I would say to him is: stfu.

Let's look at the things Loghain did: he retreated at Ostagar, possibly leading to the deaths of all the Grey Wardens, including Alistair's mentor and father-figure. Now, there's no way of knowing exactly what would have happened had he fought, but the king was killed in that battle. You can make the argument that Loghain indirectly committed regicide and not only that, but let his son-in-law die. He refused to call for help from Orlais because of his parnanioa. He lied about Ostagar and put bounties on the heads of the remaining Grey Wardens. He hired an assassin to kill the Grey Wardens. He poisoned Arl Eamon because he knew he could command power in the Landsmeet and oppose him.

I'm not necessarily surprised to see that the PC would say "okay sure, be a Grey Warden" (especially playing a HN origin because of what Howe represents) but I am surprised that anyone would be surprised by Alistair's reaction to that. Put the shoe on the other foot and Howe in Loghain's position with Alistair deciding that Howe should live and become a Grey Warden, and I'd storm out of the Landsmeet too.

Unless you didn't care about your family at all, playing a HN origin has strong parallels to Alistair's journey. You want to see justice done for the people who caused you pain.

Disclaimer: I haven't been playing long, so HN is the only origin story I've played.

Do you seriously think Howe would join the Grey Wardens? sure it would save his life (if he lived) but he would lose all his titles in the process, and i don't know.. being his superior could be better vengeance than beating his head in with a sword.

It doesn't matter whether he would want to or not. My point is that my idea of what is justice for Howe is the same as Alistair's idea of justice for Loghain.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...
His intention to save Ferelden ended with more destruction and loss of life than was necessary. Who's to say that he would have been any better at being a Grey Warden? Whether it's constructive or not, my character didn't trust him, not only because she is a Grey Warden, but also because of Howe's influence on him.

As for Howe, I suppose it's all in the role playing. My character would have killed Howe before she let him become a Grey Warden.

Howe was dead. He doesn't have any influence on Loghain at the landsmeet.
And he would have faired better as a Grey Warden since you are in charge, and not him (nor does he want to be in charge after the landmseet). Of course, I am not tellign you that you must trust Loghain. It's irrelevent to the issue. You can spare him or kill him, both decisions are understandable. But if your character stormed out and abandonned everyone because Howe was made a Grey WArden, then your PC would be as pathetic as Alistair. Your PC would have forgotten what her dad told her, to defeat the blight and save Ferelden. 
 
My character would have killed Howe after the blight was defeated, even if he was a Grey Warden. But that's after the Blight was over.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 janvier 2010 - 10:45 .

[Maria Caliban]

David Gaider wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
If you play a good character, this is the only time you see Alistair behave this way. He’s spent the last 70 hours being a laid back and snarky guy who approves of everything you’ve done and willingly follows you because he’s not a decision maker. Then POW, he’s angry and you have to do what he wants or he’s leaving.

I'll point out that you say "if you play a good character". If you play a good character, he does agree with you. You reinforce his belief that the Grey Wardens exist to do good, and consist of good people fighting for what is right. In fact, if you saved both Connor and Isolde at Redcliffe he thinks you've done better than he thought possible. Going into the Landsmeet, he would have assumed that you were there to do what was right -- and so, yes, what happened would have come as a rude shock to him as much as to you. But out of character? Just because Alistair was agreeing with you previously does not mean that it is his character to do so.

Yes, I completely agree. As I said, I think this was right for Alistair. It makes sense.

What I am trying to say, and I think I've been phrasing this poorly, is that prior to that moment, I would not have expected Alistair to act the way he did. In hindsight, it makes sense, but when it happened, I was blindsided.

Alternatively, with Morrigan and Anora, I already had that expectation. Morrigan makes it clear that she doesn't do charity; it's obvious she isn't going to help stop the Blight for the betterment of mankind. Arl Emmon tells you directly that Anora wants a tool, and Anora herself will consistently work against you if she believes that's what's best for her.

The thing is, I consider myself fairly good at reading characters. I tend to dote on my squadmates and try very hard to get to know them. If someone had told me prior to the Landsmeet that I could spare Loghain, and asked me what Alistair’s reaction would be, I’d have said that I could convince him it was the right thing to do. I’m not saying that I should have been able to do so, but that was my expectation going into the Landsmeet.

I think many people had the same expectation and I think that’s not an unreasonable reading of Alistair prior to that point.

Do you understand where I'm coming from? Because I get the feeling that you're reading this as 'David did something wrong!' which isn't what I'm trying to communicate at all.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Tirigon wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...
What would Duncan have thought of Eamon's idea to put Alistair forward as King?

He would have probably argued that a Grey Warden has no business being a king -- or a king a Grey Warden. Possibly by then he might have advised that the Grey Wardens leave for Orlais and meet up with the Grey Wardens there -- abandoning Ferelden, as much as it would have pained him to do so.

Or so occurs to me off the top of my head, anyway.

So Duncan was a coward too?

Awesome.

No. He would have done what a true Grey Warden does - "The Grey Wardens sacrificed EVERYTHING to stem the tide of Darkness". (Intro movie).

If this includes an entire country, so what? It´s the Grey Warden´s goal to stop the blight, not to save country smelling of wet dog.
Yea, pretty shocking to see they are douchebags sometimes, isn´t it?

Yeah Skelli, put your brain in gear for once huh?

As far as Wardens go...

Ending the Blight > countries politics

Even if it a country they love.

[tomas819]

I find all of the criticism of Alistair a little strange. Personally, I think he is one of the best-written, best-voiced acted, and most thoroughly likeable characters in the entire game---and in a game of this caliber that's really saying something. I have played through the game several times and the point at which the Landsmeet comes up is always problematic and diffiicult for me.

The fact of the matter is that I do not want to lose Alistair and yet I can see genuine merit in sparing Loghain. My thinking on my current, third pass through the game is that this time  I am ... finally ... going to spare Loghain and induct him into the wardens as Riordan suggests. From an RP perspective, I will be doing something that will alienate Alistair in order to (ultimately) spare his life and mine and also provide Loghain with an opportunity to redeem himself to some extent for his past misdeeds, much as I usually allow Zathrian the same opportunity.

That Alistair will react badly to this decision, that he will be blinded by his desire for vengeance and thus unable to see reason and the greater good, is entirely understandable, realistic, and consistent with both his character and the storyline. I've known many people in my life who were easy-going and easy to get along with until you stepped on a raw nerve and they ... erupted.

Why so many posters cannot see the humanity in that behavior is something of a mystery to me.

My (RP) hope is that Alistair will eventually process through this in time and see the sense of the decision. 

 In any case, I think Alistair is an awesome character; his strengths and weaknesses form a fairly consistent "whole person" that I find very real and likable.

Modifié par tomas819, 19 janvier 2010 - 10:55 .

[Maria Caliban]

Monica21 wrote...

And this is where I'll disagree with you. At the Landsmeet, you've already been able to exact justice from Howe and Alistair hasn't. My character didn't "put everything aside" and had no intention of doing so. She waited until an opportunity presented itself. In my mind, if that happened after the Archdemon was killed then that's when it would be, but I would have made sure to kill Howe. Alistair had no such opportunity before the Landsmeet.

Your Warden, yes. Not everyone's Warden though. My Warden didn't kill Howe out of revenge. Getting revenge for the Cousland family would be her brother's duty now.

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Howe was dead. He doesn't have any influence on Loghain after the landsmeet.
And he would have faired better as a Grey Warden since you are in charge, and not him (nor does he want to be in charge after the landmseet). OF course, I am nto tellign you that you must trust Loghain. It's irrelevent to the issue. You can spare him or kill him, both decisions are understandable.
 
My character would have killed Howe after the blight was defeated, even if he was a Grey Warden. But that's after the Blight was over.

Yes, he was dead and Loghain seemed contrite when the rubber met the road. But by that time, it was entirely too late for my character to care. Loghain tore Ferelden apart in his search for what was best, and my character's idea of justice was only that he committed treason and should die at the hand of a Grey Warden and didn't deserve the chance to right his wrongs.

[melkathi]

Monica21 wrote...

And this is where I'll disagree with you. At the Landsmeet, you've already been able to exact justice from Howe and Alistair hasn't. My character didn't "put everything aside" and had no intention of doing so. She waited until an opportunity presented itself. In my mind, if that happened after the Archdemon was killed then that's when it would be, but I would have made sure to kill Howe. Alistair had no such opportunity before the Landsmeet.

Reread what I wrote. I said put aside till after the blight. Reading only half a sentence is a bad habit. My human noble would have made sure Howe died as well, if it hadn't occured the way it did. But after the blight. Alistair chose to make killing Loghain more important than saving the world. He did not wait for the right opportunity, he demanded to be given the first opportunity he could see and to hell the world and his duty.

After the blight I would have aided him in any way he wanted to seek justice. Preferably a trial though. And preferably a trial, because my human noble would have liked Loghain to meet the justice my noble was denied visiting on Howe.
Howe got killed in a basement. That is not justice. That is no real vengence. My noble felt cheated. Howe should have stood trial, been found guilty and publicly hanged.

[sirchet]

Threads like these are testaments to how skillfully written the characters of DA:O are.



Myself, I would be very content if something I wrote sparked anywhere near this much of a love/hate response from the readers.



Well done BW. The nerves you aimed were hit, BULLSEYE!



I can only hope the expansion is as well written.

[Monica21]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

And this is where I'll disagree with you. At the Landsmeet, you've already been able to exact justice from Howe and Alistair hasn't. My character didn't "put everything aside" and had no intention of doing so. She waited until an opportunity presented itself. In my mind, if that happened after the Archdemon was killed then that's when it would be, but I would have made sure to kill Howe. Alistair had no such opportunity before the Landsmeet.

Your Warden, yes. Not everyone's Warden though. My Warden didn't kill Howe out of revenge. Getting revenge for the Cousland family would be her brother's duty now.

Of course not, and that's why I only claim responsibility for my character. But do you understand where I see the parallels in Alistair's reaction?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Howe was dead. He doesn't have any influence on Loghain after the landsmeet.
And he would have faired better as a Grey Warden since you are in charge, and not him (nor does he want to be in charge after the landmseet). OF course, I am nto tellign you that you must trust Loghain. It's irrelevent to the issue. You can spare him or kill him, both decisions are understandable.
 
My character would have killed Howe after the blight was defeated, even if he was a Grey Warden. But that's after the Blight was over.

Yes, he was dead and Loghain seemed contrite when the rubber met the road. But by that time, it was entirely too late for my character to care. Loghain tore Ferelden apart in his search for what was best, and my character's idea of justice was only that he committed treason and should die at the hand of a Grey Warden and didn't deserve the chance to right his wrongs.

Good for you. I fail to see how this is relevent to the issue at hand however.
Would your PC have abandoned Ferelden if Riordan insisted on making Howe a Warden?
Would your PC forget what her daddy told her? To do everythign to save Ferelden?

If so, then your PC is like Alistair and I would dislike her as well. But that is of course, my personal opinion and taste. 
 

[Maria Caliban]

I know there was a chance to 'seek out' Morrigan after the Blight, and I wish my character had the chance to do so with Alistair. He was a good man, and with her through the Fade and the Deep Roads. Perhaps a few months after the archdemon was slain, they could meet again and.. I don't know. I suppose he might never want her as a friend, but at least they could depart on better terms.



He might decide to rejoin the Wardens if he was given a chance to do so after the first rush of anger had worn off.

[Monica21]

melkathi wrote...

Reread what I wrote. I said put aside till after the blight. Reading only half a sentence is a bad habit. My human noble would have made sure Howe died as well, if it hadn't occured the way it did. But after the blight. Alistair chose to make killing Loghain more important than saving the world. He did not wait for the right opportunity, he demanded to be given the first opportunity he could see and to hell the world and his duty.

After the blight I would have aided him in any way he wanted to seek justice. Preferably a trial though. And preferably a trial, because my human noble would have liked Loghain to meet the justice my noble was denied visiting on Howe.
Howe got killed in a basement. That is not justice. That is no real vengence. My noble felt cheated. Howe should have stood trial, been found guilty and publicly hanged.

I read your quote, I just disagreed with it. My character was not so self-sacrificing.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I know there was a chance to 'seek out' Morrigan after the Blight, and I wish my character had the chance to do so with Alistair. He was a good man, and with her through the Fade and the Deep Roads. Perhaps a few months after the archdemon was slain, they could meet again and.. I don't know. I suppose he might never want her as a friend, but at least they could depart on better terms.

He might decide to rejoin the Wardens if he was given a chance to do so after the first rush of anger had worn off.

Jory was killed on the spot. Why should Alistair recieve any different treatment?

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Howe was dead. He doesn't have any influence on Loghain after the landsmeet.
And he would have faired better as a Grey Warden since you are in charge, and not him (nor does he want to be in charge after the landmseet). OF course, I am nto tellign you that you must trust Loghain. It's irrelevent to the issue. You can spare him or kill him, both decisions are understandable.
 
My character would have killed Howe after the blight was defeated, even if he was a Grey Warden. But that's after the Blight was over.

Yes, he was dead and Loghain seemed contrite when the rubber met the road. But by that time, it was entirely too late for my character to care. Loghain tore Ferelden apart in his search for what was best, and my character's idea of justice was only that he committed treason and should die at the hand of a Grey Warden and didn't deserve the chance to right his wrongs.

Good for you. I fail to see how this is relevent to the issue at hand however.
Would your PC have abandoned Ferelden if Riordan insisted on making Howe a Warden?
Would your PC forget what her daddy told her? To do everythign to save Ferelden?

If so, then your PC is like Alistair and I would dislike her as well. But that is of course, my personal opinion and taste. 
 

The issue at hand being how well we like or dislike a video game character? My PC would have killed Howe herself, right there no matter who wanted him to be a Grey Warden. As for what my PC remembered, it would likely have been the sight of her father bleeding to death on the floor of a cellar.

[Maria Caliban]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Jory was killed on the spot. Why should Alistair recieve any different treatment?

If my Warden killed people for dereliction of duty, this wouldn't be an issue as Loghian failed as both a servant to the king and a regent.

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I know there was a chance to 'seek out' Morrigan after the Blight, and I wish my character had the chance to do so with Alistair. He was a good man, and with her through the Fade and the Deep Roads. Perhaps a few months after the archdemon was slain, they could meet again and.. I don't know. I suppose he might never want her as a friend, but at least they could depart on better terms.

He might decide to rejoin the Wardens if he was given a chance to do so after the first rush of anger had worn off.

Jory was killed on the spot. Why should Alistair recieve any different treatment?

I understand what you're saying, but Jory never was a Grey Warden. I saw him as being killed not only for his refusal, but to keep the Joining rite a secret. If anyone was to kill Alistair, it would be Riordan. Although, giving your character the chance to would certainly cover all RP aspects.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Monica.
You didn't answer my question.
Would your Pc have abandonned Ferelden if Riordan insisted on making Howe a Warden? (and you can't kill him, unless you kill Riordan too). Would she?

Maria Caliban wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Jory was killed on the spot. Why should Alistair recieve any different treatment?

If my Warden killed people for dereliction of duty, this wouldn't be an issue as Loghian failed as both a servant to the king and a regent.

A-  Loghain is not a warden. So he has no secrets to reveal and no Warden oath.
B- While Loghain betrayed the king, he did not betray his nation nor his duty towards his nation, as he told Maric. Ferelden supersedes any King for Loghain.
C- Wardens are recruited from all walks of life, including criminals. So it's not an issue that Loghain did what he did. 

And of course you can always kill Loghain. But you didn't answer my question. Why should Alistair recieve a different treatment from Jory?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 janvier 2010 - 11:06 .