596 réponses à ce sujet

[errant_knight]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

What a Twist wrote...
"Yeah only my entire family got killed in one night, i'm sorry you lost some guy you knew for a year or so, must be hard for you."

Try that out in real life the next time you meet someone who lost someone they've known for only six months but cared about deeply, and tell them that you lost someone you knew much longer and therefore your grief is more valid than theirs. See how that goes.

I did try that in real life.
A guy was crying about his pet who is dead right in front of a girlfriend of mine whose father passed away a few days before. Who is to say that he didn't care about his pet more than she loved her dad? I can't know. Nonetheless I requested that he either remains silent or he gets out of the room. And it went well.  

Boy. You must adore Morrigan. I begin to understand why you don't like Alistair, but it's not anything I can identify with.

[Skellimancer]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


But you didn't answer my question. Why should Alistair recieve a different treatment from Jory.

Because he is romancable, no doubt.

[melkathi]

Monica21 wrote...

I understand what you're saying, but Jory never was a Grey Warden. I saw him as being killed not only for his refusal, but to keep the Joining rite a secret. If anyone was to kill Alistair, it would be Riordan. Although, giving your character the chance to would certainly cover all RP aspects.

So it is ok to kill a husband and father to whom it never was clear that the path he was choosing was going to prohibit him from caring for his family and very likely make his wife a widdow and his unborn child an orphan before he even really embarked down that path? But someone who supposedly actually already knows all the secrets, knows the duty and responsibility and the price for betraying these, that person should live?

[Xandurpein]

Soomething that I think causes a lot of misunderstanding on this thread, is that people continually misunderstand attempts at objective analysis and roleplaying. Time and again I have seen people post something that sounds narrowminded and suggests that anyone who disagree is a moron. Then, when the posters are challenged they will retort "But that is how my character sees it".

If you are writing a statement, and not specifically mention that this is from your characters point of view, then I think people have a right to assume that it is your own, the player who have all the information, thoughts and not those of your fictious alter ego. I'm beginning to think that at least half the belligrency on threads like these are rooted in mixing up these things in posting.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 19 janvier 2010 - 11:10 .

[Maria Caliban]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But you didn't answer my question. Why should Alistair recieve a different treatment from Jory?

Because I'm not role-playing Duncan. I'm role-playing my PC.

Loghain utterly failed the nation. He betrayed the king, yes, but I could have forgiven that if he'd proved to be a semi-competent leader.

My character doesn’t kill people for dereliction of duty.

[What a Twist]

Skellimancer wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


But you didn't answer my question. Why should Alistair recieve a different treatment from Jory.

Because he is romancable, no doubt.

"Romance my sword pretty boy"

*stabby stab stab stab*

[melkathi]

Maria Caliban wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Jory was killed on the spot. Why should Alistair recieve any different treatment?

If my Warden killed people for dereliction of duty, this wouldn't be an issue as Loghian failed as both a servant to the king and a regent.

The difference here is that Loghain's treason towards king and country are not for the Wardens to punish. They are a Ferelden matter.

Alistair abandoning his duty as a warden though is a Grey Warden matter and therefor falls to the Wardens' right or duty to punish.

[ejoslin]

Monica21 wrote...

I understand what you're saying, but Jory never was a Grey Warden. I saw him as being killed not only for his refusal, but to keep the Joining rite a secret. If anyone was to kill Alistair, it would be Riordan. Although, giving your character the chance to would certainly cover all RP aspects.

Unless you choose wimpy dialogs, your PC, even after Riorden is rescued, is still Ferelden's ranking Gray Warden and commander of the armies. So whether or not Loghain is spared is NOT Riorden's decision, nor is the decision to execute Alistair. Riorden would be a fool to try to pull a coupe on you.

[Maria Caliban]

Skellimancer wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


But you didn't answer my question. Why should Alistair recieve a different treatment from Jory.

Because he is romancable, no doubt.

Thank you. It's been a couple of days since someone implied I was an idiot because I have a vagina. I'd missed it.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 19 janvier 2010 - 11:12 .

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Monica.
You didn't answer my question.
Would your Pc have abandonned Ferelden if Riordan insisted on making Howe a Warden? (and you can't kill him, unless you kill Riordan too). Would she?

I actually did answer your question. I wouldn't have had to make the choice because Howe would have been dead before he had a chance to become a Grey Warden.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Maria Caliban wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But you didn't answer my question. Why should Alistair recieve a different treatment from Jory?

Because I'm not role-playing Duncan. I'm role-playing my PC.

Loghain utterly failed the nation. He betrayed the king, yes, but I could have forgiven that if he'd proved to be a semi-competent leader.

My character doesn’t kill people for dereliction of duty.

Stop trying to avoid the issue. Loghain is not the issue here.

So you forget that Duncan killed Jory in order to ensure that Grey Warden secrets are not revealed to the rest?
You do realise that betraying the Warden oath is punishable by death?

You can always stand up to your decision. But it's not Grey Warden policy, I hope you realise this.

[Skellimancer]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


But you didn't answer my question. Why should Alistair recieve a different treatment from Jory.

Because he is romancable, no doubt.

Thank you. It's been a couple of days since someone implied I was an idiot because I have a vagina. I'd missed it.

Guys romance him too. Some don't even use mods to do it.

[SinYang]

melkathi wrote...
So it is ok to kill a husband and father to whom it never was clear that the path he was choosing was going to prohibit him from caring for his family and very likely make his wife a widdow and his unborn child an orphan before he even really embarked down that path? But someone who supposedly actually already knows all the secrets, knows the duty and responsibility and the price for betraying these, that person should live?

Yes its fine cos Alistairs the MAN
But seriously this is head vs heart choices...

If my character followed his/her heart, they would be alistair (or my elf).
If my character followed his/her head, they would want to kill Alistair for betraying the Grey warden's.

But you cant claim Alistair is following his duty as GW at all. I also see taking king status as *hiding* behind it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Monica.
You didn't answer my question.
Would your Pc have abandonned Ferelden if Riordan insisted on making Howe a Warden? (and you can't kill him, unless you kill Riordan too). Would she?

I actually did answer your question. I wouldn't have had to make the choice because Howe would have been dead before he had a chance to become a Grey Warden.

As much as I like how ruthless you are, you are still avoiding my question.

Hypothetically speaking. Your PC couldn't kill Howe before and Riordan wants to make him a Warden. And you can't kill him there without starting a general onslaught. Would your cahracter abadon Ferelden? Yes or no?

[Maria Caliban]

melkathi wrote...

The difference here is that Loghain's treason towards king and country are not for the Wardens to punish. They are a Ferelden matter.

Alistair abandoning his duty as a warden though is a Grey Warden matter and therefor falls to the Wardens' right or duty to punish.

That last time I checked, my PC was forced to involve herself in politics, specifically removing Loghain from power and having to duel him (or have one of my companions duel him) for the throne.

Your statement is a bit like saying that it's not the GW's right or dudy to decide who should be king of Orzammar. I agree, but that doesn't change the fact that the character has to get right in there and ends up with just that responsibility.

[dangadget]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
 As someone else said, he let his thirst for vengeance corrupt him in much the way that Loghain had been corrupted -- absolutely true. And intentional.

Perhaps someone might think it was poorly conveyed, I don't know. I'm all too familiar with the inability to control the narrative completely in such a large game, but that was the intent.

I think it was conveyed pretty well.
But there is a difference between him and Loghain. Loghain was having delusions, there is no doubt, and maybe even paranoia. But he NEVER abandoned Ferelden.
Alistair, on the otherhand, abandoned everything that Duncan, the man he claims to love, stood for.  

Sorry, but that's BS IMO.
Loghain foreswore his duty and his honor the moment he substituted personal prejudice and judgement to the detriment of his people and his nation.
Sound familiar to anyone?

[Monica21]

ejoslin wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

I understand what you're saying, but Jory never was a Grey Warden. I saw him as being killed not only for his refusal, but to keep the Joining rite a secret. If anyone was to kill Alistair, it would be Riordan. Although, giving your character the chance to would certainly cover all RP aspects.

Unless you choose wimpy dialogs, your PC, even after Riorden is rescued, is still Ferelden's ranking Gray Warden and commander of the armies. So whether or not Loghain is spared is NOT Riorden's decision, nor is the decision to execute Alistair. Riorden would be a fool to try to pull a coupe on you.

Riordan is the senior Warden however, and says as much when he's telling the PC how the Archdemon must be killed. If you are the ranking Warden, then he should leave the decision to you but doesn't. And yes, I know that's after the Landsmeet. Please also note that I did say it would give the character a chance to cover all RP opportunities, so I'm saying that it would be a good thing to be able to kill Alistair.

[Maria Caliban]

Skellimancer wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


But you didn't answer my question. Why should Alistair recieve a different treatment from Jory.

Because he is romancable, no doubt.

Thank you. It's been a couple of days since someone implied I was an idiot because I have a vagina. I'd missed it.

Guys romance him too. Some don't even use mods to do it.

Yet I don't recall you ever implying that a male player spared Alistiar because he was romancable. If you must know, I've yet to romance Alistiar at all.

But hey, I guess it's easier to suggest that I spared a character because I find him dreamy and score some lulz than it is to actually contribute something intelligent to the conversation. I guess I spared Loghain because he's so hawt, right? Isolde and Conner because I want to bang them both?

[KnightofPhoenix]

dangadget wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
 As someone else said, he let his thirst for vengeance corrupt him in much the way that Loghain had been corrupted -- absolutely true. And intentional.

Perhaps someone might think it was poorly conveyed, I don't know. I'm all too familiar with the inability to control the narrative completely in such a large game, but that was the intent.

I think it was conveyed pretty well.
But there is a difference between him and Loghain. Loghain was having delusions, there is no doubt, and maybe even paranoia. But he NEVER abandoned Ferelden.
Alistair, on the otherhand, abandoned everything that Duncan, the man he claims to love, stood for.  

Sorry, but that's BS IMO.
Loghain foreswore his duty and his honor the moment he substituted personal prejudice and judgement to the detriment of his people and his nation.
Sound familiar to anyone?

It was not intentional. He was harming Ferelden. But in his mind and heart, he thought he was doing good and that he was serving his people. He did all this for Ferelden. He did betray the king (not out of hatred, but out of necessity). But you can't seriously believe that he intentionally and deliberately betrayed Ferelden. If you truly believe that, then you obviously didn't understand the character of Loghain. And that would be a pity, as you would lose a great layer of complexity for the plot. 

Alistair is completely different. He intentionally and deliberately betrays everything. Had he betrayed my PC, but continued to fight the blight, that would have been a different story.  

[David Gaider]

ejoslin wrote...
Unless you choose wimpy dialogs, your PC, even after Riorden is rescued, is still Ferelden's ranking Gray Warden and commander of the armies. So whether or not Loghain is spared is NOT Riorden's decision, nor is the decision to execute Alistair. Riorden would be a fool to try to pull a coupe on you.

Err... and how do you come to this notion? Duncan's death makes you a Warden-Commander, suddenly?

Alistair defers to you because he's Alistair -- at least until he has a reason not to. Otherwise you are in charge out of circumstance, not by any means of Grey Warden rank. Whatever is going on it is very much outside of the normal order of things... Riordan doesn't take charge because you seem to be doing just fine, not because he has no rank to pull, if he chooses.

Alistair can die at the Landsmeet, but the reason you don't get to kill him in every instance is twofold: one, he's still a Theirin and not everyone is going to agree with someone claiming that he needs to die as "a Grey Warden thing", and two, because we don't put every option in the game -- so, no, you don't get to the option to kill everyone that you can come up with a reason to.

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Monica.
You didn't answer my question.
Would your Pc have abandonned Ferelden if Riordan insisted on making Howe a Warden? (and you can't kill him, unless you kill Riordan too). Would she?

I actually did answer your question. I wouldn't have had to make the choice because Howe would have been dead before he had a chance to become a Grey Warden.

As much as I like how ruthless you are, you are still avoiding my question.

Hypothetically speaking. Your PC couldn't kill Howe before and Riordan wants to make him a Warden. And you can't kill him there without starting a general onslaught. Would your cahracter abadon Ferelden? Yes or no?

Haha... okay. I honestly have no idea what Alistair says, so it's difficult for me to align myself with what he may or may not have said when he does leave the Landsmeet. But hypothetically speaking I would feel betrayed by Alistair and would probably also leave the Landsmeet. I'd like to think that I'd seek out Riordan soon, punch him in the face, and then have him tell me what I need to know, but from what I can tell there's no way we can know what Alistair's intentions were when he left.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...
Haha... okay. I honestly have no idea what Alistair says, so it's difficult for me to align myself with what he may or may not have said when he does leave the Landsmeet. But hypothetically speaking I would feel betrayed by Alistair and would probably also leave the Landsmeet. I'd like to think that I'd seek out Riordan soon, punch him in the face, and then have him tell me what I need to know, but from what I can tell there's no way we can know what Alistair's intentions were when he left.

Once again, I like the ruthlessness lol.
Alistair didn't leave the alndsmeet. Alistair said he was leaving everyone, aka abandoning the cause. We didn't see him anywhere after that. So his intention is clear. He just left and did not come back. And the fact that he becomes a drunk is Alistair being his true self, without anyone to lead him. A sad pathetic man.

[ejoslin]

David Gaider wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
Unless you choose wimpy dialogs, your PC, even after Riorden is rescued, is still Ferelden's ranking Gray Warden and commander of the armies. So whether or not Loghain is spared is NOT Riorden's decision, nor is the decision to execute Alistair. Riorden would be a fool to try to pull a coupe on you.

Err... and how do you come to this notion? Duncan's death makes you a Warden-Commander, suddenly?

Alistair defers to you because he's Alistair -- at least until he has a reason not to. Otherwise you are in charge out of circumstance, not by any means of Grey Warden rank. Whatever is going on it is very much outside of the normal order of things... Riordan doesn't take charge because you seem to be doing just fine, not because he has no rank to pull, if he chooses.

Alistair can die at the Landsmeet, but the reason you don't get to kill him in every instance is twofold: one, he's still a Theirin and not everyone is going to agree with someone claiming that he needs to die as "a Grey Warden thing", and two, because we don't put every option in the game -- so, no, you don't get to the option to kill everyone that you can come up with a reason to.

I come to this conclusion based on Ferelden having two gray wardens, one who has given all authority to you, and the fact that you have 4 or 5 armies that are treating you as their commander, in addition to Riorden saying you're their (the armies) commander.  

Edit: I never said Warden-Commander, I said Ferelden's ranking Gray Warden and commander of the armies.

Second edit: Also, I never said anything about Alistair being executed other than Riorden would be a fool if he tried to take your power away from you at that point.   

Modifié par ejoslin, 19 janvier 2010 - 11:40 .

[Sandtigress]

SinYang wrote...

Sandtigress wrote...
As Gaider said earlier though, no one knew that the Archdemon was going to rear its head so soon after Landsmeet.  You could see this as "Alistair got really angry (justifiably) said things that he may or may not have meant long term, stormed out in anger, but would have come to his senses and rejoined the fight had he had the time to do so".

Er what game are you playing? the Archdemon appears to your party at Deep roads flying "outside".
We did indeed know it was coming by landsmeet, if not before then.

No, we knew there was an Archdemon around.  We still had no idea when it would attack.  You can do Orzammar early, for instance, which means it was almost a year before the Archdemon attacks Denerim.  Or you can do it late, and the attack follows shortly after.  The Wardens have known there was an Archdemon around from the beginning - there's no reason to expect that it would have attacked as fast as it did.  Riordan and the other Wardens are surprised when it attacks Denerim when it does, after all.

[melkathi]

Maria Caliban wrote...

That last time I checked, my PC was forced to involve herself in politics, specifically removing Loghain from power and having to duel him (or have one of my companions duel him) for the throne.

Your statement is a bit like saying that it's not the GW's right or dudy to decide who should be king of Orzammar. I agree, but that doesn't change the fact that the character has to get right in there and ends up with just that responsibility.

That is very true, the warden is forced into politics.
You have to remove Loghain from power. You have to choose between the two contenders for the Orzammar throne. You do what is necessary to unify the lands to face the blight.
It is the GWs' duty to do what must be done to get everyone ready to fight the darkspawn. If that means getting involved with politics then so be it. But it ends the moment the deed is achieved. And it deffinitly isn't about punishing the guilty.
As a dwarven noble you do not waltz into Orzammar and assume the role of Bhelen's judge, jury and executioner for the murder of Trian. You may very likely side with Harrowmont in the hope that this will also see justice done, but that is an added bonus. If Bhelen didn't try a coup, you couldn't just say "Oh and guys, I want to kill that git for the following crimes" the crimes are an Orzammar matter and you are a warden.

There is a difference between a GW's right, duty and responsibility.
In a way a matter of jurisdiction. If let's say a GW was murdered while there was no blight, the murderer would face whatever the local justice has him face. He could even be found not guilty. The other GWs don't get to hold their own tribunal. They are no law enforcement agency. They are not Mass Effect Spectres or anything like that.

But I dont see us really disagreeing So just saying a few things using the opportunity