596 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sandtigress wrote...
No, we knew there was an Archdemon around.  We still had no idea when it would attack.  You can do Orzammar early, for instance, which means it was almost a year before the Archdemon attacks Denerim.  Or you can do it late, and the attack follows shortly after.  The Wardens have known there was an Archdemon around from the beginning - there's no reason to expect that it would have attacked as fast as it did.  Riordan and the other Wardens are surprised when it attacks Denerim when it does, after all.

The dreams intensify as the story progresses and we know that the archdemon is on the move. Plus, it's pretty clear from the deap roads that the army is amassing and the attack was coming soon (either very soon or just soon).
They were surprised that the Archdemon appeared at denerim, because they expected the main horder to be moving towards Redcliff. But there was not much surprise that the archdemon showed itself. It just showed itself somewhere unexpected.

[Skellimancer]

Maria Caliban wrote...




Yet I don't recall you ever implying that a male player spared Alistiar because he was romancable. If you must know, I've yet to romance Alistiar at all.

But hey, I guess it's easier to suggest that I spared a character because I find him dreamy and score some lulz than it is to actually contribute something intelligent to the conversation. I guess I spared Loghain because he's so hawt, right? Isolde and Conner because I want to bang them both?

I don't know, did you?

[SinYang]

Sandtigress wrote...
No, we knew there was an Archdemon around.  We still had no idea when it would attack.  You can do Orzammar early, for instance, which means it was almost a year before the Archdemon attacks Denerim.  Or you can do it late, and the attack follows shortly after.  The Wardens have known there was an Archdemon around from the beginning - there's no reason to expect that it would have attacked as fast as it did.  Riordan and the other Wardens are surprised when it attacks Denerim when it does, after all.

As skellimancer put it, I dont think it was heading out for a picnic
Thing is we "knew" an attack was coming, we didnt know the "target" by landsmeet. its safe to assume an attack is in bound, so much time has already passed without incident.. though you could say Lothering and Redcliffe falling were hints enough.

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Once again, I like the ruthlessness lol.
Alistair didn't leave the alndsmeet. Alistair said he was leaving everyone, aka abandoning the cause. We didn't see him anywhere after that. So his intention is clear. He just left and did not come back. And the fact that he becomes a drunk is Alistair being his true self, without anyone to lead him. A sad pathetic man.

lol... what can I say?

The fact that Alistair turns into a drunk is quite interesting to me. I do agree with you that it's very Alistair-like but for different reasons than you think. (I assume.) Through his entire life he's wanted someone to believe in him but been abandoned every step of the way. If your PC trusts him enough to make him king, he's a much better ruler than Anora. If your PC doesn't let him have his vengeance, then he turns his back on everything. Sad yes, but not necessarily pathetic.

[Vicious]

I find it refreshing that even David G says that Alistair isn't particularly mature, and Duncan would have likely shattered Alistair's illusions at some point, and Duncan could very well have been the one to recruit Loghain if things were different.



Fascinating.

[Sandtigress]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sandtigress wrote...
No, we knew there was an Archdemon around.  We still had no idea when it would attack.  You can do Orzammar early, for instance, which means it was almost a year before the Archdemon attacks Denerim.  Or you can do it late, and the attack follows shortly after.  The Wardens have known there was an Archdemon around from the beginning - there's no reason to expect that it would have attacked as fast as it did.  Riordan and the other Wardens are surprised when it attacks Denerim when it does, after all.

The dreams intensify as the story progresses and we know that the archdemon is on the move. Plus, it's pretty clear from the deap roads that the army is amassing and the attack was coming soon (either very soon or just soon).
They were surprised that the Archdemon appeared at denerim, because they expected the main horder to be moving towards Redcliff. But there was not much surprise that the archdemon showed itself. It just showed itself somewhere unexpected.

The timing isn't that expected either though - its not like they knew that the Archdemon was going to attack in the next few days.  Otherwise I agree.

I'm not really excusing the fact that Alistair walked out - I was shocked and upset when he did it.  But I think he had reasons, its not like he just did it to do it.  Even if I don't agree with those reasons and wanted him to take another course, it was a logical and not unreasonable thing - a human thing even - for him to do.  And that's one of the things I like about this game.  The characters act like real people might.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...
lol... what can I say?

The fact that Alistair turns into a drunk is quite interesting to me. I do agree with you that it's very Alistair-like but for different reasons than you think. (I assume.) Through his entire life he's wanted someone to believe in him but been abandoned every step of the way. If your PC trusts him enough to make him king, he's a much better ruler than Anora. If your PC doesn't let him have his vengeance, then he turns his back on everything. Sad yes, but not necessarily pathetic.

Nowhere does it say he is better than Anora. It says he is more popular. A poster boy like Cailan. But it was either Eammon, the PC or Anora who actually ruled. Aka, they were the real rulers. Alistair is just a figurehead. Somewhat less so if he is hardened. 

[melkathi]

Monica21 wrote...

The fact that Alistair turns into a drunk is quite interesting to me. I do agree with you that it's very Alistair-like but for different reasons than you think. (I assume.) Through his entire life he's wanted someone to believe in him but been abandoned every step of the way. If your PC trusts him enough to make him king, he's a much better ruler than Anora. If your PC doesn't let him have his vengeance, then he turns his back on everything. Sad yes, but not necessarily pathetic.

Actually the unhardened Alistair turns out to be not much of a ruler, just a very liked one. He travels a lot and is close to the people, but the actual ruling he leaves to his chamberlain be that you or Eamon.
Anora is ruthless. She takes action as she sees it needed and not all of her decissions are good. She isn't necessarily just. But only she qualifies as "ruler" in my opinion.
The best ending is Alistair king with either a female human noble as Queen or Anora as queen and the player as chamberlain.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sandtigress wrote...
The timing isn't that expected either though - its not like they knew that the Archdemon was going to attack in the next few days.  Otherwise I agree.

I'm not really excusing the fact that Alistair walked out - I was shocked and upset when he did it.  But I think he had reasons, its not like he just did it to do it.  Even if I don't agree with those reasons and wanted him to take another course, it was a logical and not unreasonable thing - a human thing even - for him to do.  And that's one of the things I like about this game.  The characters act like real people might.

Well obviously they couldn't predict the exact date and timing. But everyone knew it was very soon by the time of the landsmeet.

Obviously, he had reasons. And as Mr Gaider said, it's up to us to decide whether those reasons make us change our minds, let him go or kill him on the spot.

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Nowhere does it say he is better than Anora. It says he is more popular. A poster boy like Cailan. But it was either Eammon, the PC or Anora who actually ruled. Aka, they were the real rulers. Alistair is just a figurehead. Somewhat less so if he is hardened. 

I would say that his handling of the elves makes him the better ruler. Aside from that there isn't a whole lot of difference except for the popularity.

[Zemore]

I love Alistair hes everything i am immature a complete tool at jokes and suave in a very corny way

hes just an all out comedy relief and all in all hes the only party member u cant just say Bugger off too during the game he either leaves at the landsmeet or not at all which makes him the single most important companion with the dog ... i love that dog like i love any mobile snack

KnightofPhoenix wrote...



Well obviously they couldn't predict the exact date and timing. But everyone knew it was very soon by the time of the landsmeet.

Obviously,
he had reasons. And as Mr Gaider said, it's up to us to decide whether
those reasons make us change our minds, let him go or kill him on the
spot.

 i thought that was a military blunder tbh mass a force near one place and when the enemy moves to counter you attack your true goal thier defenseless capital =/ the archdemon baited them and it worked

Modifié par Zemore, 19 janvier 2010 - 11:55 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Nowhere does it say he is better than Anora. It says he is more popular. A poster boy like Cailan. But it was either Eammon, the PC or Anora who actually ruled. Aka, they were the real rulers. Alistair is just a figurehead. Somewhat less so if he is hardened. 

I would say that his handling of the elves makes him the better ruler. Aside from that there isn't a whole lot of difference except for the popularity.

"Better" morally speaking perhaps, for you that is. When I say a good ruler, but "good" I mean efficient.
And yes there is difference. If Alistair is king, he isn't interested in the actually governance of the kingdom (like bureaucracy, trade and all that), except if he is hardened. Anora on the otherhand opens a university and she shows great skill in bureaucratic management.

In fact, the best ending for Ferelden, imo, is where the PC and Anora rule. It is described as a Goden age for Ferelden (only if they don't fight each other of course). 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 janvier 2010 - 11:58 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zemore wrote...
 i thought that was a military blunder tbh mass a force near one place and when the enemy moves to counter you attack your true goal thier defenseless capital =/ the archdemon baited them and it worked

Eh, villains always display more strategy, tactics and cunning and yet they always end up losing.

[Zemore]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Zemore wrote...
 i thought that was a military blunder tbh mass a force near one place and when the enemy moves to counter you attack your true goal thier defenseless capital =/ the archdemon baited them and it worked

Eh, villains always display more strategy, tactics and cunning and yet they always end up losing.

its the typical way things have to go unless the game allows You to be evil as sin ... then its a grey area

on note my Fav marvel char is Dr doom he always loses in the end =(

[AtreiyaN7]

Personally, I have no problem with people who hate Alistair. What I don't get about it is that a lot of people seem to be completely unwilling to acknowledge that Alistair is behaving like your average screwed-up imperfect human being. A lot of people also seem to believe that Wardens are totally rigid about their behavior and actions, but after reading the books, I daresay that while they do their duty, they can still be petty, jealous, vindictive...and even compassionate, etc.

On to the minor issue about Alistair trying to get Wynne to repair a hole in shirt and the sock issue that some people cite (seriously?) - don't most guys act like little boys with their mothers around that age? I get the impression that what Alistair is doing with Wynne is similar and that he views her as either a mother figure or the grandmotherly sort. I tend to equate it with a college-age guy trying to wheedle his mom into doing his laundry or something. *shrug* I believe that people really are blowing some minor things way out of proportion. *rolleyes*

** Edited to remove that first "be" - God I hate it when I make typos. Oh, and let me emphasize that my second paragraph really does refer ONLY to minor things like those two exchanges of party banter between Alistair and Wynne. I was not saying the Landsmeet decision was minor in any way (if any of the later posts were responding to that). Seriously, party banter does not equate to a neat little encapsulation of a person's overall personality and behavior.  if you only took Zevran's party banter at face value, you'd write him off as an Antonion Banderas latin-lover wannabe, but he's clearly far more complex than that if you get into his backstory. 

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 20 janvier 2010 - 01:32 .

[Zemore]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Personally, I have no problem with people who hate Alistair. What I don't get about it is that a lot of people seem to be completely unwilling to acknowledge that Alistair is behaving like your average screwed-up imperfect human being. A lot of people also seem to believe that Wardens are totally rigid about their behavior and actions, but after reading the books, I daresay that while they do their duty, they can be still be petty, jealous, vindictive...and even compassionate, etc.

On to the minor issue about Alistair trying to get Wynne to repair a hole in shirt and the sock issue that some people cite (seriously?) - don't most guys act like little boys with their mothers around that age? I get the impression that what Alistair is doing with Wynne is similar and that he views her as either a mother figure or the grandmotherly sort. I tend to equate it with a college-age guy trying to wheedle his mom into doing his laundry or something. *shrug* I believe that people really are blowing some minor things way out of proportion. *rolleyes*

as i said Hes very like me in behaviour =/ its a typical sympton of not really growing up ... he had no mother no father and he was treated at best with mixed reactions of OH KING MARICS SON or HES NOT TRUE ROYALTY 

=/ he doesnt have stablity so why should he act stable was my own thoughts everything goes ****** up for him in the end until the warden possibly?

[SinYang]

Its not a minor thing he does, choosing to leaving the grey warden's in a blight isnt minor at all - no matter the reasoning. But I can see *why* he did it, too much emotion, extremes on either end of the scale are bad imo.

Like I can also understand why a city elf would take that path, if they wanted payback on loghain for the slaver business.

Its why I always choose Neutral alignment under the d&d system.

Modifié par SinYang, 20 janvier 2010 - 12:28 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

SinYang wrote...
Its why I always choose Neutral alignment in d&d system.

You are one of the rare, wise, few.

[Zemore]

SinYang wrote...

Its not a minor thing he does, choosing to leaving the grey warden's in a blight isnt minor at all - no matter the reasoning. But I can see *why* he did it, too much emotion, extremes on either end of the scale are bad imo.

Its why I always choose Neutral alignment in d&d system.

Like I can also understand why a city elf would take that path, if they wanted payback on loghain for slaver business.

i think the justification is that hes nothing more than a child in a mans body ... you cant reason with a child

a child will obey its mommy or daddys orders until its in a situation like " EAT YOUR DAMN LOGHAIN" " BUT I HATE LOGHAIN DADDY NOOOOOO"

its not really the same thing but it shows the level of immiturity he has =/ i cant blame him if somone killed my sugah daddy id be pretty pissed too

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

SinYang wrote...
Its why I always choose Neutral alignment in d&d system.

You are one of the rare, wise, few. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/wink.png

i agree =( i spend 4 hours debating on letting wynne live or die when im trying to play a mass murdering nutcase ......=( its not fair MORRIGAN SUCKS FOR HEALING!!

Modifié par Zemore, 20 janvier 2010 - 12:22 .

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Zemore wrote...
 i thought that was a military blunder tbh mass a force near one place and when the enemy moves to counter you attack your true goal thier defenseless capital =/ the archdemon baited them and it worked

Eh, villains always display more strategy, tactics and cunning and yet they always end up losing.

And he would've gotten away with it, if it hadn't been for them meddling kids and their mangy dog!

[Zemore]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Zemore wrote...
 i thought that was a military blunder tbh mass a force near one place and when the enemy moves to counter you attack your true goal thier defenseless capital =/ the archdemon baited them and it worked

Eh, villains always display more strategy, tactics and cunning and yet they always end up losing.

And he would've gotten away with it, if it hadn't been for them meddling kids and their mangy dog!

hes not mangy!

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

You look after him then

[Zemore]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

You look after him then

*images of dog snapping at hands* i forget hes a wardog.

[kaimanaMM]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Personally, I have no problem with people who hate Alistair. What I don't get about it is that a lot of people seem to be completely unwilling to acknowledge that Alistair is behaving like your average screwed-up imperfect human being. A lot of people also seem to believe that Wardens are totally rigid about their behavior and actions, but after reading the books, I daresay that while they do their duty, they can be still be petty, jealous, vindictive...and even compassionate, etc.

This.  This, this, this.

What I don't understand are some people expecting Gray Wardens to be Big Bad Darkspawn Killing Machines with Laser Eyes.  Underneath it all they are human or elf or dwarf.  There was no warning on the cup saying : "Side effects may include losing your humanity, becoming a total jerk and / or the possiblity of smelling like feet."  They fight the Blight and ultimately they are the only ones who can defeat it, but that doesn't mean they instantly forget who they were before they took that drink.  Nor do I think any Gray Warden is expected to.  You can't say the compassionate, do-gooder Gray Warden is any better or worse than the pragmatic, sees-the-bigger picture Gray Warden.  They both have their strengths and their weaknesses and both are needed. 

I like Alistair for who he is and who he isn't and I wouldn't change him for the world.

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

"Better" morally speaking perhaps, for you that is. When I say a good ruler, but "good" I mean efficient.
And yes there is difference. If Alistair is king, he isn't interested in the actually governance of the kingdom (like bureaucracy, trade and all that), except if he is hardened. Anora on the otherhand opens a university and she shows great skill in bureaucratic management.

In fact, the best ending for Ferelden, imo, is where the PC and Anora rule. It is described as a Goden age for Ferelden (only if they don't fight each other of course). 

Well, yes, better for me. If I had to choose between an efficient but racist ruler and one who didn't like politics but still managed to lead, then I'd pick the latter. In my first character I ended up playing from the Landsmeet through the ending twice, the first time making Anora the ruler and the second time Alistair. If I were a citizen of Ferelden, especially elven, I would prefer Alistair.

And I'm about to the point of my current game where I can harden him *ahem* so I'll have to see how that goes. And my next character was going to be male, so I'll see about that too.

Just as an aside, one thing I really like about this game is that you really can't get everything you want. There isn't a Disney ending, you have to make hard choices, and the hard choices actually affect the gameworld. Absolutely brilliant.