596 réponses à ce sujet

[Zemore]

Monica21 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

"Better" morally speaking perhaps, for you that is. When I say a good ruler, but "good" I mean efficient.
And yes there is difference. If Alistair is king, he isn't interested in the actually governance of the kingdom (like bureaucracy, trade and all that), except if he is hardened. Anora on the otherhand opens a university and she shows great skill in bureaucratic management.

In fact, the best ending for Ferelden, imo, is where the PC and Anora rule. It is described as a Goden age for Ferelden (only if they don't fight each other of course). 

Well, yes, better for me. If I had to choose between an efficient but racist ruler and one who didn't like politics but still managed to lead, then I'd pick the latter. In my first character I ended up playing from the Landsmeet through the ending twice, the first time making Anora the ruler and the second time Alistair. If I were a citizen of Ferelden, especially elven, I would prefer Alistair.

And I'm about to the point of my current game where I can harden him *ahem* so I'll have to see how that goes. And my next character was going to be male, so I'll see about that too.

Just as an aside, one thing I really like about this game is that you really can't get everything you want. There isn't a Disney ending, you have to make hard choices, and the hard choices actually affect the gameworld. Absolutely brilliant.

Harden ayyy? *magines AL as a golem* wait what?

anyway im inclined to agree Popularity factors in a huge deal on who is remembered as a good ruler and who is considered some total ****
i think Al has the raw potential to be the best ruler in ferelden other than the PC but thats just my opinion and i wouldent take the ending little notes as anything serious god knows what awakenings will have in store for us.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...
Just as an aside, one thing I really like about this game is that you really can't get everything you want. There isn't a Disney ending, you have to make hard choices, and the hard choices actually affect the gameworld. Absolutely brilliant.

Don't remind me......Morrigan

[Zemore]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
Just as an aside, one thing I really like about this game is that you really can't get everything you want. There isn't a Disney ending, you have to make hard choices, and the hard choices actually affect the gameworld. Absolutely brilliant.

Don't remind me......Morrigan

i dident think they meant that kind of "Hard" choice

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
Just as an aside, one thing I really like about this game is that you really can't get everything you want. There isn't a Disney ending, you have to make hard choices, and the hard choices actually affect the gameworld. Absolutely brilliant.

Don't remind me......Morrigan

Sorry. I will know your pain soon enough. (Well, before Awakenings anyway.)

[suitocatmail]

David Gaider iluhard.

Just had to say that after reading the first page of this thread.

[Hezulkai]

Dragon Age1103 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

amethyst_rose2009 wrote...
I don't see Alistair as the betrayer at all.  The entire time you have travelled with him, you know his feelings toward Loghain, so by choosing Loghain over him, yeah I think that's a betrayal toward Alistair.  I do however wish you could go back to Alistair after Riordan has explained things and tell him your plan to sacrifice Loghain, but then it probably wouldn't matter.  The damage would have already been done.

Grey Warden rule number 1: The Blight is the only important thing. You do not desert from the Grey Warden ranks NO MATTER WHAT. If you do you die.

We didn't choose Loghain over him. He forced us to choose between the two and by displaying such immaturity, I went for Loghain. And by further claiming that he will not aid the PC agains t the Blight, my disrespect turned into disgust. He is a traitor.

   I agree again! lol. I know everything can't be simple black & white decision but Alistair broke his oath & he turned his back on his order along with his country. Death is taking it easy on him. It is much better than him leaving like a child b/c he didn't get his way only to later dispise himself for turning his back on his country, his order, & most importantly his mentor....Duncan!!!
 
  Alistair=Epic Fail!!!!   lol

I have one point and one question.

When you let Loghain in, you undermine everything the wardens are, and everything they could be in Alistair's mind.  It isn't the organization he signed up for any longer.  The Grey Wardens support the land and fight the blight.  By allowing Loghain to live (at least to Alistair) you shift the focus of the wardens from a group that fights the blight, to an army for a regicidal madman who welcomed the Blight into his lands in the hopes it would cut down his opponents, making it easier for him to rule.  Loghain helped the Blight.  Wardens use whomever they can, muderers, kinslayers and thieves.  There has to be a line and for Alistair, that line is for those who willingly collaberate with the Blight to murder the land for personal and egomanical gain. 

Along that vein, why would you expect Leliana to get mad when you poison the Ashes?  After all, aren't they worshipping Andraste just like the Chantry does?  By this logic, the dragon cult is exactly the same thing as the Chantry and no one in the party should have any issues ever if you support the dragon cult.  If you're worshipping Andraste does it matter if it's a charitable organization helping the poor and offering solace, or a human-sacrificing militaristic cult?  Leliana and Wynne don't take nearly the tongue-lashing for their betrayal of the party at that juncture.

As for the question, the ending where Alistair leaves is only one alternate reality of a multitude of endings.  For anyone who wants to call Alistair weak for that, how does that jibe with an ending where he defeats Loghain in single combat, summarily executes him and declares himself king.  No backpeddling, no uncertainty, just commitment and determination.  How does that aspect of his character strike you?  If you never had played a spare Loghain ending, what is Alistair to you then?

[Sagacious Rage]

David Gaider wrote...

Tell you what.

Next time we put in a male lead, we will make sure to make him the manliest and most stoic creature you could possibly imagine. Just for you. He will be so manly he will suck the body hair right off of John Wayne and make Chuck Norris weep with envy. He will never show a single emotion, not even at his grandmother's funeral, and will never utter a single complaint about your actions... he will simply reach out of the game, slap you across the face and then take over the party.

The rest of the party won't mind, and neither will you... because he will be that awesome. Deep down inside you will resent him, and resent the fact that every NPC in every town the party enters falls in love with him and not with you. But that part of you also knows he deserves that love. Even needs it.

I am certain there is not a single fault that you or anyone could find with such a character.

Just piping in on the longthread to say that I already played Halo and was kind of "meh." about Master Chief. THX!

[2LT America]

Loghain sniffs the proverbial butt

[Envor44]

Only thing i dislike about Alistar is when he comment about i'm in love with Morrigan, But he's one of the best part on journey.

[2LT America]

On a note unrelated to Loghain and his sniffing of butts, how long could Alistair be a "good king"? The taint will kill him in around 30 years... That or he'll be crazy King Ghoul and frighten Ferelden's children.

[Envor44]

Well even though you spare Loghain. In the end he will still leave party and venture to the Deep roads.

[QuiTamGogh]

Don't hate the NPC, hate the game. 

... No wait ... That isn't what I meant to say at all.


...

I don't hate Alistair.  I do hate Loghain -- that's why I "allowed" him to self-annihlate against the Archdemon. 

Loghain's response in Return to Ostagar makes his suicide all the more heartwarming.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Hezulkai wrote...
I have one point and one question.

When you let Loghain in, you undermine everything the wardens are, and everything they could be in Alistair's mind.  It isn't the organization he signed up for any longer.  The Grey Wardens support the land and fight the blight.  By allowing Loghain to live (at least to Alistair) you shift the focus of the wardens from a group that fights the blight, to an army for a regicidal madman who welcomed the Blight into his lands in the hopes it would cut down his opponents, making it easier for him to rule.  Loghain helped the Blight.  Wardens use whomever they can, muderers, kinslayers and thieves.  There has to be a line and for Alistair, that line is for those who willingly collaberate with the Blight to murder the land for personal and egomanical gain. 

One doesn't sign up to the Grey Wardens. One is enlisted. He is only illusioned and his illusions had to be broken one way or the other.

Second, the Wardens are not fighting for Loghain if we spare him. Loghain becomes a Grey Warden under the
command of the PC. So If Alistair thought that, then he was more of an idiot.

Third, Loghain did not "willingly collaberate with the blight". Where did you get that from? He wasn't sure it was a real blight. But in no way was he willing to let the darkspawn ravage Ferelden. Loghain's plan was to secure the borders in the North, then fight the darkspawn in the South. Not a good plan, unfeasable during a civil war. Yes, it would have harmed Ferelden. But that's not willingly collaberating with the Blight. and certainly not for personal gains. If Alistair didn't see that, then he is blind.

About Leliana. Leliana is not a warden. She didn't take the Warden oath. She is not expected to stand against the blight no matter what. She is not needed to defeat the blight.  Alistair is a warden. He made the Warden oath, an oath that stipulates death as punishment for desertion. And he knows that every single Warden is needed to fight the blight and yet he abandons the PC if he doesn't get his way. 
So while Leliana's act is somewhat foolish, she is not a Grey Warden. She didn't betray the order. She is willign to stand for her faith and her beliefs. For a grey Warden, everything else is secondary compared to beign a Warden. So don't compare the two. 
Alistair doesn't need to love Loghain, or hug him or even fight alongside the PC. What he has to do is fight the blight and he doesn't, should we do something he doesn't like, because of his arrogant illusioned sense of "duty". 

And about the multiple endings. Irrelevent. He has shown that he could potentially leave the PC to fight the blight, if he doesn't get his way. It's in Alistair's character. 
And killing a man who wielded in front of his daughter is not really a thing of strength. Not weakness either. But that doesn't impress me no.
 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 janvier 2010 - 04:25 .

[krisd2]

Sagacious Rage wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Tell you what.

Next time we put in a male lead, we will make sure to make him the manliest and most stoic creature you could possibly imagine. Just for you. He will be so manly he will suck the body hair right off of John Wayne and make Chuck Norris weep with envy. He will never show a single emotion, not even at his grandmother's funeral, and will never utter a single complaint about your actions... he will simply reach out of the game, slap you across the face and then take over the party.

The rest of the party won't mind, and neither will you... because he will be that awesome. Deep down inside you will resent him, and resent the fact that every NPC in every town the party enters falls in love with him and not with you. But that part of you also knows he deserves that love. Even needs it.

I am certain there is not a single fault that you or anyone could find with such a character.

Just piping in on the longthread to say that I already played Halo and was kind of "meh." about Master Chief. THX!

Read the books master chief is sweet.

[wwwwowwww]

WarlordThor wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Tell you what.

Next time we put in a male lead, we will make sure to make him the manliest and most stoic creature you could possibly imagine. Just for you. He will be so manly he will suck the body hair right off of John Wayne and make Chuck Norris weep with envy. He will never show a single emotion, not even at his grandmother's funeral, and will never utter a single complaint about your actions... he will simply reach out of the game, slap you across the face and then take over the party.

The rest of the party won't mind, and neither will you... because he will be that awesome. Deep down inside you will resent him, and resent the fact that every NPC in every town the party enters falls in love with him and not with you. But that part of you also knows he deserves that love. Even needs it.

I am certain there is not a single fault that you or anyone could find with such a character.

How about you just make it chuck Norris?

lmfao yep make Alistair = Chuck Norris and Sten = Mr. T, then the darkspawn would all just explode from the sheer awesomeness of your party

[Arcane_Solona]

Alistair is simply the GREATEST RPG character to EVER be created. How could anyone hate him????

He's so loveable, it's ridiculous! The perfect man; Funny (hilariously so), brave, compassionate, emotional, flawlessly HANDSOME, serious when he needs to be, humble... I could go on and on and on and on!

[Arcane_Solona]

David Gaider wrote...

Tell you what.

Next time we put in a male lead, we will make sure to make him the manliest and most stoic creature you could possibly imagine. Just for you. He will be so manly he will suck the body hair right off of John Wayne and make Chuck Norris weep with envy. He will never show a single emotion, not even at his grandmother's funeral, and will never utter a single complaint about your actions... he will simply reach out of the game, slap you across the face and then take over the party.

The rest of the party won't mind, and neither will you... because he will be that awesome. Deep down inside you will resent him, and resent the fact that every NPC in every town the party enters falls in love with him and not with you. But that part of you also knows he deserves that love. Even needs it.

I am certain there is not a single fault that you or anyone could find with such a character.

David... you have literally created the man of my dreams. Alistair is as perfect as perfect could possibly be. I have seriously never adored an RPG character as much as I adore Alistair.
Kudos to you, seriously. You've brightened up my life by creating such an awesome character.

[Arcane_Solona]

TeenZombie wrote...

JBurke wrote...

I like to keep Alistair with me because it leads to the greatest ending you can pick... picking Anora as queen and seeing Alistair's face when you agree to his execution.

Hmm, yes, that is extremely clever of you, seeing as Alistair is locked into your party during the Landsmeet.  <_<

LOL.
Good point.

[Arcane_Solona]

melkathi wrote...

Just throwing this in the room:

I was walking down the street today. Radio playing on my mobile. And the DJ (or whatever they have these days (MP4J sounds silly)) dug up from my youth Green Day - Basket Case. A great song. Especially when it reminds you of being 16 years old (or something along that age).

And the lyrics started...


Do you have the time
to listen to me whine

And the first thought that did cross my mind was "Alistair so needs to sing this."

As much as I'm against people calling Alistair whiny, I kinda agree! (Probably because I just wanna hear Alistair sing with that GORGEOUS voice of his).

[Lotion Soronarr]

melkathi wrote...
The difference here is that Loghain's
treason towards king and country are not for the Wardens to punish.
They are a Ferelden matter.

True. It really didn't make
any sense. At elast it would have been nive if you could do it like in
the Broken Cirlce and just say "I'll leave it up to you".
Why would they trust me with the decision?

Alistair
abandoning his duty as a warden though is a Grey Warden matter and
therefor falls to the Wardens' right or duty to punish.

Alistair
has a different idea of what his duty is..and I don't recall making any
oaths towards the Wadens...so my following them is a matter of my own
preference, not some promise.
Also there's a matter of duty to your own concience. A man has several duties. Which ones does he follow?

Also, Jory was killed because he pulld out his sword.

dangadget wrote...
Loghain
foreswore his duty and his honor the moment he substituted personal
prejudice and judgement to the detriment of his people and his nation.
Sound familiar to anyone?

If
we're making compariosons, let's not fogret that Loghians actions
caused death and destruction on a large scale and
Alistairs...erm..caused nothing?

And the fact that he becomes a drunk is Alistair being his true self, without anyone to lead him. A sad pathetic man.

How do you know this is his "true self"? So a man at hte worst moment of his life is his "true self". By that logic, your true self is also a wretched, useless human being - cause I can make you one once I f**** up your life enough and mess with your head.

[Arcane_Solona]

Jules8445 wrote...

Okay.  I can't restrain myself anymore.  lol.  Call me a weak, weak person.

I don't understand why everyone thinks he's such a wimp.  Maybe it's just me, but when you fight with Al, isn't he kicking darkspawn arse every bit as hardcore as anyone else in the party? 

As to immaturity...yeah, he's immature, he's sheltered, and he's terrified of responsibility.  This is all explained though. 

Alistair grew up in a church, surrounded by the equivalent of nuns, he was schooled his entire life into believing that not only would his taking responsibility be a terrible idea, it could endanger his life.  Isolde made his life a living hell from the time he was old enough to remember until he was taken by the Chantry at the ripe old age of 10.  Then all of a sudden he's useful and Eamon decides he should be king.  It's kind of a cluster when you think about it.  I actually feel bad for the guy. 

Alistair feels strongly about things, he was raised in a very black and white world.  You can call him a pansy for backing down, but he never hesitates to let you know how he feels about things.  (If he didn't back down, it would make for a kind of weird game.) 

I've watched through all of the possible endings, and the different outcomes at the landsmeet, and I think that Alistair shows considerable backbone lots of times....and a maturity level that grows as the game goes on. 

I know this is the 'I hate....' thread, and I'm not criticizing anyone for their opinion.   Lots of people love the characters I thoroughly dislike.  I'm just curious where some of the angst comes from on things I thought were pretty cut and dry.  

What I love is that he's enough of a character to inspire this kind of discussion.  As always, Kudos to Bioware!

I completely agree. Kudos to you for typing this.

[Costin_Razvan]

You took an oath when you joined, that you would do whatever it takes to end the Blight, as did Alistair.



While sparing Loghain and having in total four wardens is not necessary to end the Blight, it does improve your odds. Alistair does not care about this however, he only cares for his revenge.



While his revenge can be understood, as Commanding Officer would you trust someone who is willing so quickly to discard his oath ( or at least part of it ) and then flee like a coward before the battle, just because he doesn't agree with one of your decisions?



Loghain did leave at Ostagar, but that was not treason, as there is no proof to back that claim up. In fact everything that we know points to the contrary. He was a general at the head of his army, the choice was his to make and he made the hard one ( as he always has )

[emynii]

Vicious wrote...

I find it refreshing that even David G says that Alistair isn't particularly mature, and Duncan would have likely shattered Alistair's illusions at some point, and Duncan could very well have been the one to recruit Loghain if things were different.

Fascinating.

Of course, if Duncan were there,  Alistair would not have the incredibly strong bias against recruiting Loghain.

[Lotion Soronarr]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Duncan was not only a man, he was an ideal. He was a purpose. He IS Grey Warden.
How can you claim that Alistair loves Duncan while he is turning his back against 2 of his Grey Warden brothers and leaving them alone to fight the Blight? Is that love for Duncan? Or is it selfish love for being loved?

I am talking about love in its truest sense. Not love in the common form. See Aristotle and Plato for different layers of love. If Alistair loved Ducan in the truest sense of the word, he would have done anything to see Duncan's wish fulfilled. And that's not revenge. That's not justice. That's defeating the Blight.

EDIT: forget about love even. If he even respected Duncan, he would have never abandoned the fight against the Blight.

Bulls****.
I can love and respect someone without following him blindly adn nodding aprovingly towards everything he does.
One doesn't need to act like the perosn one loves/respects. That's just stupidity on your part.

And I don' recall Duncan makign any deathbed requests. Either way, when Al leaves, you seem to have things pretty much in hand, so Duncans "wish" get fulfilled anyway.

For an exmaple, I respected Duncan. Does that mean I would do anything as he would? No. I have my own views on how to fight the Blight and I don't need Duncans approval. Not all GW's think alike.

Would I have left at the Landsmeet? Maybe. I really can't tell with any certanty because I've never been in such a situation. Neither can you. And if you claim otherwise, you're a big, fat liar.
It's easy to be a superhuman pillar of morality when you're not realy invovled. Like a general after the battle.

[Arcane_Solona]

AnniLau wrote...

xgiovedi wrote...

- After you sleep with him and ask where this is going, he says he'll do what he has to for his country and doesn't want to talk about your relationship. Honestly I felt kind of used, especially since I was RPing as a female who had never 'licked a lamppost in winter"

He gives a much more satisfactory answer if you harden him after his personal quest.

Like what? I'm curious!