596 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Costin_Razvan wrote...

You took an oath when you joined, that you would do whatever it takes to end the Blight, as did Alistair.[/quote]

I did? When? Show me the conversation line!


[quote]
While sparing Loghain and having in total four wardens is not necessary to end the Blight, it does improve your odds. Alistair does not care about this however, he only cares for his revenge.[/qutoe]

except that by logic, you should be able to kill Loghain and recruit someone esle and STILL have 4 wardens.


[quote]
While his revenge can be understood, as Commanding Officer would you trust someone who is willing so quickly to discard his oath ( or at least part of it ) and then flee like a coward before the battle, just because he doesn't agree with one of your decisions? [/quote]

"So quickly?" Is it? Again, unless you yourself were in such a situation, it's not possible to judge.
Would you have broken to pieces in his place?
Eitehr way, I don' really know where he's going, and it's not cowardice that drives him.


[quote]
Loghain did leave at Ostagar, but that was not treason, as there is no proof to back that claim up. In fact everything that we know points to the contrary. He was a general at the head of his army, the choice was his to make and he made the hard one ( as he always has )[/quote]

Loghian made large-scale tactical decisions based on only a very limited view of hte battlefield and contrary to the pre-arranged signal.
No sane general makes decisions that affect the whole battlefield with so little data. Not to mention that abandoning Ostagar was a terrible strategic decision. It was a very defensible position and a perfect place to hold the blight, since with it lost the darkspawn poored into the lands and caused destruction everywhere.
Defenders in forts and castles have historicly ben able to repulse armeis 10 times their numbers.

So yea, stupid. Even if his looses would be huge, it would still be worth it and it would still be his duty. His duty is to protect the people, to keep the darkspawn from them. He was more interested in conserving his army for the Orlesians.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 20 janvier 2010 - 07:57 .

[ckriley]

So really, the only thing I got from this thread is that David Gaider is butthurt because some people think Alistair is a whiny complainer.



/facepalm

[Costin_Razvan]

except that by logic, you should be able to kill Loghain and recruit someone esle and STILL have 4 wardens.

Only Loghain knows where the archdemon blood is, you kill him you lose any hope of finding it.

"So quickly?" Is it? Again, unless you yourself were in such a situation, it's not possible to judge.
Would you have broken to pieces in his place?
Eitehr way, I don' really know where he's going, and it's not cowardice that drives him.

You missed the point. I don't care or make my decision based on what Alistair feels, but I do care that he is willing to betray us so readily, whatever the ****ing reason.

Loghian made large-scale tactical decisions based on only a very limited view of hte battlefield and contrary to the pre-arranged signal.
No sane general makes decisions that affect the whole battlefield with so little data. Not to mention that abandoning Ostagar was a terrible strategic decision. It was a very defensible position and a perfect place to hold the blight, since with it lost the darkspawn poored into the lands and caused destruction everywhere.
Defenders in forts and castles have historicly ben able to repulse armeis 10 times their numbers.

So yea, stupid. Even if his looses would be huge, it would still be worth it and it would still be his duty. His duty is to protect the people, to keep the darkspawn from them. He was more interested in conserving his army for the Orlesians.

No sane general would attack a largely superior force, more then had expected, head on. Even more so when the signal he was waiting for was not light in time.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 20 janvier 2010 - 08:11 .

[Hezulkai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


One doesn't sign up to the Grey Wardens. One is enlisted. He is only illusioned and his illusions had to be broken one way or the other.

Second, the Wardens are not fighting for Loghain if we spare him. Loghain becomes a Grey Warden under the
command of the PC. So If Alistair thought that, then he was more of an idiot.

Third, Loghain did not "willingly collaberate with the blight". Where did you get that from? He wasn't sure it was a real blight. But in no way was he willing to let the darkspawn ravage Ferelden. Loghain's plan was to secure the borders in the North, then fight the darkspawn in the South. Not a good plan, unfeasable during a civil war. Yes, it would have harmed Ferelden. But that's not willingly collaberating with the Blight. and certainly not for personal gains. If Alistair didn't see that, then he is blind.

About Leliana. Leliana is not a warden. She didn't take the Warden oath. She is not expected to stand against the blight no matter what. She is not needed to defeat the blight.  Alistair is a warden. He made the Warden oath, an oath that stipulates death as punishment for desertion. And he knows that every single Warden is needed to fight the blight and yet he abandons the PC if he doesn't get his way. 
So while Leliana's act is somewhat foolish, she is not a Grey Warden. She didn't betray the order. She is willign to stand for her faith and her beliefs. For a grey Warden, everything else is secondary compared to beign a Warden. So don't compare the two. 
Alistair doesn't need to love Loghain, or hug him or even fight alongside the PC. What he has to do is fight the blight and he doesn't, should we do something he doesn't like, because of his arrogant illusioned sense of "duty". 

And about the multiple endings. Irrelevent. He has shown that he could potentially leave the PC to fight the blight, if he doesn't get his way. It's in Alistair's character. 
And killing a man who wielded in front of his daughter is not really a thing of strength. Not weakness either. But that doesn't impress me no.
 

On my side of things, I find Loghain well written and a fascinating character, but he is a self absorbed sociopath.  In every place where the Blight could be potentially contained or fought, he ran and left the citizens undefended to be used as food and breeding material (though likely he didn't know about the latter).  That's how I see him collaborating with the Blight.  He used it as a weapon against those he perceived as his enemies, and as a political tool.  I find that breath-takingly mad.  Even if he didn't believe it was a Blight, there was no doubt it was a massive invasion.  He stated that there was no Blight, only Cailan's vanity made it so.  Well, on the flip side, there was no Orlesian invasion, only Loghain's ego demanded it be so.

So you can make a big deal about Alistair being a terrible person because he broke his oath to the wardens.  Loghain swore an oath to his friend and king that he would keep the land free.  Instead he murdered its people, left the king to die, imprisoned the queen, allowed his henchman to murder the family of the staunchest royal supporters, lost vast swaths of land to the horde, sold its citizens into slavery, turned away the military support that could have saved the land and allowed through inaction the capital to come under seige.  There is no facet of his oath to protect the land that Loghain did not betray, even if you want to take it literally, the Blight controlling Ferelden is no better than Orlais potentially controlling Ferelden.  Almost every tactical advantage Ferelden had in repelling an invasion or remaining free was lost through Loghain's actions.  The armies were divided and weakened, the people scattered and leaderless.  Even if the Blight disappeared instantly, Fereldan could not have stood against a Qunari or Orlesian invasion, all because of Loghain's actions.

But maybe you can give Loghain a free pass to disregard his oath to his king and country, just as you give Leliana free pass to disregard her oath to her god.  Perhaps only Alistair can be expected to keep his word, be that as it may.  At the Landsmeet, Alistair does not know he is needed, not the way Riordan explains it.  He does not know the final sacrifice.  He does not know about the demon's ability to jump bodies.  All he knows is that a warden traditionally cuts the head off the demon, even then there's no sure knowledge that it must happen, only that it has happened in the past.

As for the multiple endings, well that could be said of anyone.  The PC has the ability to main, and murder, to lie, betray, steal and backstab.  We have the options as players to pull off horrible, dark things.  I guess there is no redemption for anyone in the story since each and every one of the characters can sink to some pretty low points.  If all we judge everyone by is the worst they could potentially do, well... no one really comes out of this well,  and personally I don't see Alistair's actions in the save Loghain scenario any worse than some of the other characters.  Now, I'm not saying that I agree with them, they are impulsive and rash, but I don't see them as the character defining fatal flaw that over-rides every other possible ending and everything he does up to that point.

[spiritage]

ckriley wrote...

So really, the only thing I got from this thread is that David Gaider is butthurt because some people think Alistair is a whiny complainer.

/facepalm

QFT

[Costin_Razvan]

Instead he murdered its people, left the king to die, imprisoned the queen, allowed his henchman to murder the family of the staunchest royal supporters, lost vast swaths of land to the horde, sold its citizens into slavery, turned away the military support that could have saved the land and allowed through inaction the capital to come under seige.

I love you speculate so much and wrongly.

First saying he murderd people is wrong, he killed soldiers of the Banns who opposed him in power. He didn't want to start the Civil War and certainly did not want for his land to fall to the darkspawn. The only place he abandons in Lothering, and that can be said was more of a decision on the local Bann's part then Loghain's

He refused Orlesian support because he thought ( correctly ) that the empress had ulterior motives for sending chevaliers in Fereldan, and his inaction had nothing to do with the capital under siege.

The vast majority of the Fereldan army had moved to Redcliff, after he was taken from power/killed, leaving the capital defenseless. Had the full might of the Royal Army been there I doubt the archdemon would have just marched on the city ( though that is a question that will remain unanswered )

He thought he was doing what was best for country, while he was wrong it does not mean forsook
his oath to Maric.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 20 janvier 2010 - 09:31 .

[Sabriana]

This thread has exploded, and I expected nothing less. And I see, Loghain is back. Again, I expected nothing less.

Alistair knows the words, but he hasn't understood their meaning. He tells my PC several times that the GWs go to "extremes" to get the job done. He tells her that only GWs can "stop a blight". He also tells her that "stopping the blight is the only important thing to GWs". (Check the dialogues, it's there, I assure you).

He is right there, and he speaks the GW oath, including the part of "a duty that can never be forsworn".
He sees Jory getting told "there is no turning back", and he sees Jory getting murdered because the Redcliffe knight wants out, come hell or high water.

He was there and able to listen in to conversation where Jory seems to think that becoming a GW is "honor and glory", and that he (Jory) has no clue that becoming a GW means putting everything on the back-burner in favor of fighting the Blight, including your family.

My HN PC will heed her dying father's wish to fight for Ferelden. My HN PC also gets slapped down at least twice when she pushes for vengeance, and has to listen to Duncan saying "Fighting the Blight supersedes everything, even vengeance."

She goes to Howe's lair to spring Anora, not to get revenge. Had Howe not instructed his mage to magically seal the door to Anora's chamber, she'd never have run across Howe. Killing him felt very unsatisfying to her, she wanted him publicly shamed and despised by all and yonder. She wanted to see his head on the chopping block, or his body weaving in the wind - in public. She wouldn't have minded pulling the lever/wielding the hangman's axe, but she wanted everyone to know what a dirt-bag Howe is, disgracing the 'Howe' name forever.

She'd most likely tell Riordan that if he wanted Howe, he'd be the one to take him into the fight, and that she in no way would want any part of him. She might take her revenge, but AFTER the Blight. Not right before it. She'd never betray her dying father's wish and abandon Ferelden. She would very likely not fight alongside Howe, but she'd nevertheless fight.

And yes, if you watch closely, you can tell that things will come to a head soon. The dreams intensify, there is more and more darkspawn about, the allies (my PC ran into dwarfs, mages, dalish, and Redcliffe soldiers during her travels, and all of them were in the process of fighting off darkspawn) get attacked by darkspawn on their way to join, and then there's Orzammar.

I know the player can do Orzammar first, but I've never been able to successfully do so at lower levels, and I believe that's by design.

The camp gets attacked only after all 3 allies are recruited. Both GWs sense it. Alistair remarks upon the archdemon getting closer to them, and that their camp is no longer safe.

He suggests recruiting Sten. Very GW-like, and my PC agreed. However, that seems about the only time Alistair grasps what GWs are, but it slips from his grasp after that, never to be understood by him again. The oddest thing was that he denied to my PC that GWs are "knights? Heroes?" when my PC asked that. However, once again he only speaks the words, but he never gets their true meaning.

He is immature and what we call "weltfremd". He was too sheltered to know that the world can be a pretty dirty, gritty, grey world, and hard place to live in. He is an adolescent in a man's body. He's never had the opportunity to learn that the real world cannot be divided into 'black' and 'white', good and bad. No doubt, Duncan would likely have shattered his ideals thoroughly, and I wonder what his reactions would have been.

A well written character, one that brings out different but strong emotions. No one is criticizing the way the character was written, at least as far as I can tell. But my PC was very disappointed when he stormed off and betrayed his own country, his order, and especially Duncan, simply because he wasn't mature enough to realize that in contrary to his belief, in real life (game world of DA) lines are not rigid, but usually blurred.

As a friend, my PCs can tolerate him, even like him. A romance partner? No thank you, I'd feel as if my PC was robbing a cradle.

[Xandurpein]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]dangadget wrote...

[quote]
And the fact that he becomes a drunk is Alistair being his true self, without anyone to lead him. A sad pathetic man.[/quote]

How do you know this is his "true self"? So a man at hte worst moment of his life is his "true self". By that logic, your true self is also a wretched, useless human being - cause I can make you one once I f**** up your life enough and mess with your head.
[/quote]

It is indeed unfair to say that a failed Alistair is his "true self". Alistair is a human being and while it's rare that a game is so well written that it can accuratly show that peple can change and be affected by others, the player, Alistair is as close to this as I have seen in a game. He is as much his "true self" when he is a beloved King of Fereldan as when he is a dropout. I always thought, and this is reinforced by what David Gaider wrote, that the reason why Alistair seems to end up a drunk in the worst case, is because he regrets his actions after his "go to hell world" tantrum.

I think that the very fact that Alistair is in fact affected by things around him and specifically the player, makes him more believable than other RPG characters who remain constant, regardless of what I do. It would have been better for Fereldan if he had been able to swallow his pain and been able to put up with Loghain as Grey Warden, but that doesn't make him a traitor, just a very tragic figure, especially as we KNOW it did not need to end like that.

That doesn't mean I think I did anything "wrong" with my first character, that drove him away. My reasons made sense to me. I just felt sad about how things turned out. Sometimes s**t happens and you get caught up in circumstances. There is no need to hate anyone because of that.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 20 janvier 2010 - 10:14 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Duncan was not only a man, he was an ideal. He was a purpose. He IS Grey Warden.
How can you claim that Alistair loves Duncan while he is turning his back against 2 of his Grey Warden brothers and leaving them alone to fight the Blight? Is that love for Duncan? Or is it selfish love for being loved?

I am talking about love in its truest sense. Not love in the common form. See Aristotle and Plato for different layers of love. If Alistair loved Ducan in the truest sense of the word, he would have done anything to see Duncan's wish fulfilled. And that's not revenge. That's not justice. That's defeating the Blight.

EDIT: forget about love even. If he even respected Duncan, he would have never abandoned the fight against the Blight.

Bulls****.
I can love and respect someone without following him blindly adn nodding aprovingly towards everything he does.
One doesn't need to act like the perosn one loves/respects. That's just stupidity on your part.

And I don' recall Duncan makign any deathbed requests. Either way, when Al leaves, you seem to have things pretty much in hand, so Duncans "wish" get fulfilled anyway.

For an exmaple, I respected Duncan. Does that mean I would do anything as he would? No. I have my own views on how to fight the Blight and I don't need Duncans approval. Not all GW's think alike.

Would I have left at the Landsmeet? Maybe. I really can't tell with any certanty because I've never been in such a situation. Neither can you. And if you claim otherwise, you're a big, fat liar.
It's easy to be a superhuman pillar of morality when you're not realy invovled. Like a general after the battle.

Learn how to read.
I didn't say Alistair would have done exactly as Duncan woud have done. I said Alistair would have done what Duncan wanted: Defeating the blight.
But he is shown willing to abandon the fight against the blight if we refuse to give in to his request. Thus, he is betraying Duncan.
And Duncan leaving a deathbed request? Does he need to do that to remind Alistair that he is a Warden who has to defeat the blight? You serious? No seriously, I am worried.
And oh, so because my PC is doing so well, Alistair thinks it excuses him of leaving. Ah, great excuse. Won't save him from Jory's fate however.

So once again, learn how to read properly, before throwingt insults like you usually do.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 janvier 2010 - 12:05 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Hezulkai
Most of your accusations against Loghain are answered here and refuted as false.
http://social.biowar...dex/583297&lf=8
Losing a war, and betraying one's country are two vastly different things. If you think that merits him death, so be it.
Furthermore, this thread has nothing to do with Loghain.

Alistair didn't know the details. but he knows that the Grey Wardens are needed. He doesn't know why and how, but he knows that he is needed. and he is shown willing to leave.

The PC is not a written character. There is no character for the Pc, we have almost complete freedom to create him / her as we wish. Alistair on the otherhand is a written character. And onace again, he is willing to betray his oath, because he somehow felt betrayed that we didn't care about his childish whims.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 janvier 2010 - 12:00 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Only Loghain knows where the archdemon blood is, you kill him you lose any hope of finding it.

I'm sure he hid in on the other side of the earth:innocent:
C'mon. Do you really think he will go to al lthat trouble hiding some blood. For what purpose? It's either on his corpse or in his room. It's not like I can't ask him BEFORE he gets executed.

You missed the point. I don't care or make my decision based on what Alistair feels, but I do care that he is willing to betray us so readily, whatever the ****ing reason.

Betray? Well, if you want to define it lkike that...fine.
But didn't you betry him by that reckoning? How can you demand loyalty if you don't provide loyalty in return?Why SHOULD he follow you anyway?

No sane general would attack a largely superior force, more then had expected, head on. Even more so when the signal he was waiting for was not light in time.

Flanking is not head on.
And he couldn't really know how late the signal was. He couldn't rell the right time to chage, remeber? It's why he needed the signal.
How come he can't tel lthe right time to charge, but can tell the right time to retreat?
Either you know enough to make large-scale decisions or you don't. There is no in-between.

[Tirigon]

David Gaider wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
Unless you choose wimpy dialogs, your PC, even after Riorden is rescued, is still Ferelden's ranking Gray Warden and commander of the armies. So whether or not Loghain is spared is NOT Riorden's decision, nor is the decision to execute Alistair. Riorden would be a fool to try to pull a coupe on you.

Err... and how do you come to this notion? Duncan's death makes you a Warden-Commander, suddenly?

Alistair defers to you because he's Alistair -- at least until he has a reason not to. Otherwise you are in charge out of circumstance, not by any means of Grey Warden rank. Whatever is going on it is very much outside of the normal order of things... Riordan doesn't take charge because you seem to be doing just fine, not because he has no rank to pull, if he chooses.

Alistair can die at the Landsmeet, but the reason you don't get to kill him in every instance is twofold: one, he's still a Theirin and not everyone is going to agree with someone claiming that he needs to die as "a Grey Warden thing", and two, because we don't put every option in the game -- so, no, you don't get to the option to kill everyone that you can come up with a reason to.

I dare to disagree with  writer: As PC I can kill every grey warden who annoys me (or could, at least, if BioWare would implement the "fight" choice) so OF COURSE I am the leader - just because I´m the strongest.

[Tirigon]

Double post.

Modifié par Tirigon, 20 janvier 2010 - 06:00 .

[melkathi]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Flanking is not head on.
And he couldn't really know how late the signal was. He couldn't rell the right time to chage, remeber? It's why he needed the signal.
How come he can't tel lthe right time to charge, but can tell the right time to retreat?
Either you know enough to make large-scale decisions or you don't. There is no in-between.

And to back Lotion up:

Quoting Mary Kirby:
As far as the beacon goes: Loghain was supposed to hold his position
until the full force of darkspawn was in that canyon. He could see some
of what was happening, but he was in a side canyon with no vantage
point to see the entire field. If he charged too early, his flanking
maneuver would have failed spectacularly as his men got sandwiched
between waves of darkspawn.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

spiritage wrote...

ckriley wrote...

So really, the only thing I got from this thread is that David Gaider is butthurt because some people think Alistair is a whiny complainer.

/facepalm

QFT

Actually the amusing thing is, if you are in that group of people, then you clearly didn't read what he said because he actually found it amusing that some people think that and actually think it says a hell of a lot more about them than it does Alistair.

From the fact that this is the only thing you got from this topic I am going to assume you are in that group and thus it really does say a lot about you as it proved not only are you shallow but you can't read either.

[Tirigon]

Not being able to read other posts is required if you want a place among these people here on the forums.

Not that I´d mind, in other forums it is even required to be unable to beat a monkey in a duel of wits. Compared to, say, WOW-Forums this one here is sort of the intellectual elite.

[Thor Rand Al]

Alistair n a few other characters are a love/hate relationship for a game, you either take it or leave it, it's just a game (1 that I very very much enjoy playing lol), thats all there is to it...

The great thing about this game is you can replay it to where you like how it ends... There are so many ways of playing this game n so many endings that I'm sure anyone can be happy with it.



1 thing I've learned from all the years of working with the public is: YOU CAN'T PLEASE THEM ALL.

[Eruanna Guerrein]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...


More back on topic, those that reckon they are nice to Alistair by putting him on the throne, did you actually speak to him at all during the story? Because last I recall he never wanted it. The only person whom all a sudden decides to push it is Eamon. See this is why I 'personally' side more with Loghain on his chain of thought that basically Eamon is looking to puppeteer Alistair to his own ends. Note, this does not mean I do it with my characters, just my own personal opinion of it, that doesn't effect how I play.

I personally think Eamon's a bit of a jackass. If you think about it, most of Alistair's issues come directly from Eamon's influence on him and he's a bit like the Harrowmount of Ferelden. He's a traditionalist and doesn't care if holding on to that tradition is good or bad for the country. Even the people of Redcliffe were overjoyed when he finally gave up his seat for Teagan (granted this was after seeing how much better Teagan was). Everyone talks about him like he's Andraste's gift but it seems to me it's a blind respect he's given. I'd like to have an option to execute him! 

[ckriley]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

spiritage wrote...

ckriley wrote...

So really, the only thing I got from this thread is that David Gaider is butthurt because some people think Alistair is a whiny complainer.

/facepalm

QFT

Actually the amusing thing is, if you are in that group of people, then you clearly didn't read what he said because he actually found it amusing that some people think that and actually think it says a hell of a lot more about them than it does Alistair.

From the fact that this is the only thing you got from this topic I am going to assume you are in that group and thus it really does say a lot about you as it proved not only are you shallow but you can't read either.

Because he was butthurt.  I did read his posts.  All of them.  He whined and complained about people whining and complaining about Alistair whining and complaining.

[Creature 1]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...
he actually found it amusing that some people think that and actually think it says a hell of a lot more about them than it does Alistair.

I find it amusing that he thinks that it says more about the person disliking Alistair's character than about Alistair's character, because I think his saying that says more about him than about the person disliking Alistair's character.  And same to you. 

Two can play that game. 

[Creature 1]

Arcane_Solona wrote...

Alistair is simply the GREATEST RPG character to EVER be created. How could anyone hate him????
He's so loveable, it's ridiculous! The perfect man; Funny (hilariously so), brave, compassionate, emotional, flawlessly HANDSOME, serious when he needs to be, humble... I could go on and on and on and on!

  Hmm, maybe.  If I were 12!  

[Fanghorne]

Bahh I like the dog.



Alistair is fine. Socially childlike and immature, but his heart is in the right place.



Loghain is a sociopath and a man with little empathy for others, who seemed to cross that little line between reality/madness. He is the perfect antagonist who can produce tremendous hate in some, and then the defenders who pour forth to protect him.



Its the same reason we have lawyers who prosecute criminals and defend them. Supporters and defenders of Alistair/Loghain say MUCH more about themselves and how they view the world, then the characters themselves.



A successful response from Bioware and pretty much standardized psych 101.

[Creature 1]

Fanghorne wrote...
Supporters and defenders of Alistair/Loghain say MUCH more about themselves and how they view the world, then the characters themselves.

Alistair is a PITA =/= I lub Loghain.  One can dislike both. 

[AtreiyaN7]

ckriley wrote...

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

spiritage wrote...

ckriley wrote...

So really, the only thing I got from this thread is that David Gaider is butthurt because some people think Alistair is a whiny complainer.

/facepalm

QFT

Actually the amusing thing is, if you are in that group of people, then you clearly didn't read what he said because he actually found it amusing that some people think that and actually think it says a hell of a lot more about them than it does Alistair.

From the fact that this is the only thing you got from this topic I am going to assume you are in that group and thus it really does say a lot about you as it proved not only are you shallow but you can't read either.

Because he was butthurt.  I did read his posts.  All of them.  He whined and complained about people whining and complaining about Alistair whining and complaining.

I would have to agree with Sir Ulrich in this case. Why don't you, oh, I don't know, work on your reading comprehension AND contribute something useful to the discussion for a change?