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[DreGregoire]

Bibdy wrote...

Umanix wrote...

Bibdy wrote...

This shows throughout the rest of the game, when you're forced between 2 difficult choices in Redcliffe and attempting to recruit/punish Loghain at the Landsmeet.

Two difficult choices in Redcliffe? Hmmm. I think someone is neglecting to look for other options.

That's not the point. Given those 2 options, I had to pick one and regardless, he gets mad. There's no way to explain to him, or he's got his head too high up in the clouds to see it for himself, standing there right next to me the whole time, that it was necessary.

Its not like he knows about some other magical way to save them both, unless I go trapsing off to the Circle Tower. Off-topic, but I don't think that option should have ever existed, anyway. It escapes that situation too easily. It was a well-written morally ambiguous choice you have to make, completely ruined by the "Save the Universe Before Breakfast" option. Just felt like a huge cop-out. Give me 2 tough choices and that's it! Really turn this game into a grim, gritty world where Grey Wardens really do have to make tough choices and decide between 'moral highground' or 'any means necessary', because the eye should always be on the prize: Get the job done and kill the Archdemon. If you have to stomp the heads of a few bunnies to get there, so be it. At least you saved the damned world!

So, he shouldn't be upset?  He should just ignore the whole thing? How you handle the conversation in camp afterwards can make a difference. I've killed one or the other at different times, but I still managed to come out of the conversation without a negative score. But playing it the way you just said you do, do you really care what Alistair has to say? I've played it both ways. Unfortunately after being raised as a templar with chantry dogma wouldn't lead to a companion that would think, in the short time he was influenced by the Grey Wardens, like a grey warden is expected to.  Just my opinion. 
L2A

Modifié par DreGregoire, 18 janvier 2010 - 09:49 .

[Skellimancer]

Dahelia wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

Dahelia wrote...


Not me...plus everyone knows the demons are in the fade and the only way you can go to the fade is by magic...and massive amounts of Lyrium...but then again. Most people don't pay attention to a story. That is what is kill RPGs....

How would I know that? I am no mage.

If you even bothered talking to anyone in Ostagar including the guard at the beginning and Wynne...even a Templar guarding the Magi camp...you would learn a lot.

Well i didn't as i was too busy preparing for the ritual.

Oh well, at least Sten approved.

[Dahelia]

Skellimancer wrote...

Dahelia wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

Dahelia wrote...


Not me...plus everyone knows the demons are in the fade and the only way you can go to the fade is by magic...and massive amounts of Lyrium...but then again. Most people don't pay attention to a story. That is what is kill RPGs....

How would I know that? I am no mage.

If you even bothered talking to anyone in Ostagar including the guard at the beginning and Wynne...even a Templar guarding the Magi camp...you would learn a lot.

Well i didn't as i was too busy preparing for the ritual.

Oh well, at least Sten approved.

*hangs head* This is why RPGs....are dieing....I give up.

[Sylrien]

David Gaider wrote...

Tell you what.

Next time we put in a male lead, we will make sure to make him the manliest and most stoic creature you could possibly imagine. Just for you. He will be so manly he will suck the body hair right off of John Wayne and make Chuck Norris weep with envy. He will never show a single emotion, not even at his grandmother's funeral, and will never utter a single complaint about your actions... he will simply reach out of the game, slap you across the face and then take over the party.

The rest of the party won't mind, and neither will you... because he will be that awesome. Deep down inside you will resent him, and resent the fact that every NPC in every town the party enters falls in love with him and not with you. But that part of you also knows he deserves that love. Even needs it.

I am certain there is not a single fault that you or anyone could find with such a character.

I think I'm in love....

Rock on, Mr Gaider. Rock on.

[Bibdy]

Its like having to explain to your kid that you had to put the dog down. He's going to hate you for it, but there was no choice. The poor thing was in pain, and there was nothing you could do. You had to do it. But, you can't be mad at the kid for hating you, because he's young.

But, Alistair is meant to be a grown man. Now, if he was a little bit more mature, he might be able to see it for himself.

Then, worse still, when you get to the Landsmeet, you have a MAJOR shortage of Grey Wardens needed to fight the Archdemon, Captain Self-Righteous over there jumps up and claims he won't help because you're 'defiling' the good name of the Grey Wardens? The WHAT? You mean the guys that will sooner slit the throat of a newborn child than watch the entire world get engulfed with Darkspawn? Their good name?

Well lets just go right ahead and let Ferelden get massacred by Darkspawn, because you can't stomache the idea that Duncan wasn't just a nice guy, he just wanted you in his army to help fight the threat and achieve the ultimate goal of ALLOWING THE WORLD TO SURVIVE!

Incidentally, has anyone made a 'Slap Alistair' mod? That might help alleviate some tension over here.

Modifié par Bibdy, 18 janvier 2010 - 09:53 .

[Skellimancer]

Dahelia wrote...


*hangs head* This is why RPGs....are dieing....I give up.

I did speak to them with other characters/playthroughs, you know, i also saved conner in my last playthrough.

Stop being so sensative.

[dan107]

Skellimancer wrote...

Bibdy wrote...


Its not like he knows about some other magical way to save them both, unless I go trapsing off to the Circle Tower. Off-topic, but I don't think that option should have ever existed, anyway. It escapes that situation too easily. It was a well-written morally ambiguous choice you have to make, completely ruined by the "Save the Universe Before Breakfast" option.

100% agree.

There should have been a huge risk heading off to the tower. The demon should have razed the town while you were away.

Yup. The mage tower was a horrible option. Not only did it make absolutely no sense (excuse me, Mr. Demon, can you please wait and not kill anything for a few days while I go and get people to exorcise you? Thanks for being a good sport!), but it completely trivialized an otherwise difficult and interesting choice.

Considering that DA was explicitly marketed as a "pull no punches" game, I was extremely disappointed when I saw the mage tower cop out. If that's not an example of a punch being pulled, I don't know what is.

[Dahelia]

Skellimancer wrote...

Dahelia wrote...


*hangs head* This is why RPGs....are dieing....I give up.

I did speak to them with other characters/playthroughs, you know, i also saved conner in my last playthrough.

Stop being so sensative.

Oh I am being sensative because I am trying to explain something...really...am I whinny too?

[Skellimancer]

Dahelia wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

Dahelia wrote...


*hangs head* This is why RPGs....are dieing....I give up.

I did speak to them with other characters/playthroughs, you know, i also saved conner in my last playthrough.

Stop being so sensative.

Oh I am being sensative because I am trying to explain something...really...am I whinny too?

Yes.

[Bibdy]

DreGregoire wrote...

So, he shouldn't be upset?  He should just ignore the whole thing? How you handle the conversation in camp afterwards can make a difference. I've killed one or the other at different times, but I still managed to come out of the conversation without a negative score. But playing it the way you just said you do, do you really care what Alistair has to say? I've played it both ways. Unfortunately after being raised as a templar with chantry dogma wouldn't lead to a companion that would think, in the short time he was influenced by the Grey Wardens, like a grey warden is expected to.  Just my opinion. 
L2A

He can be upset, but don't blame me for it when A) You don't have the balls to lead and make decisions yourself and You were RIGHT THERE, you knew the stakes.

[Dahelia]

Skellimancer wrote...

Dahelia wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

Dahelia wrote...


*hangs head* This is why RPGs....are dieing....I give up.

I did speak to them with other characters/playthroughs, you know, i also saved conner in my last playthrough.

Stop being so sensative.

Oh I am being sensative because I am trying to explain something...really...am I whinny too?

Yes.

Good  good, then Alistair is perfect. Get over it. No man is manly...anyone who doesn't show emotions are weak and vunerable to all sorts of horrible demons.

[AtreiyaN7]

Alistair is a good character with both flaws and strengths - you know, like an actual person might have. He is willing to carry out a Warden's duty (ie. sacrificing himself at the end if necessary), but that doesn't mean that he can't have his own personal beliefs about justice/honor/whatever that are diametrically opposed to the ruthless/pragmatic approach to being a Warden that some people believe in. If he doesn't react like a puppet on a string obeying your every whim, then...too bad? If he has the nerve to question you, deal with it. Or is a sycophantic yes-man all that you want out of a character? Sheesh. If you can't accept that, then I guess you can keep whining about why he's "whiny" or whatever else it is that you think of him. Personally, I like him enough to accept his flaws.

I will, again, point out that in The Calling that the Wardens on display aren't exactly "perfect" Wardens based on the rather rigid views some people seem to have about how a Warden should behave. Characters have their own motivations and reasons for doing things. *shrug*

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 18 janvier 2010 - 09:53 .

[robertthebard]

David Gaider wrote...

Tell you what.

Next time we put in a male lead, we will make sure to make him the manliest and most stoic creature you could possibly imagine. Just for you. He will be so manly he will suck the body hair right off of John Wayne and make Chuck Norris weep with envy. He will never show a single emotion, not even at his grandmother's funeral, and will never utter a single complaint about your actions... he will simply reach out of the game, slap you across the face and then take over the party.

The rest of the party won't mind, and neither will you... because he will be that awesome. Deep down inside you will resent him, and resent the fact that every NPC in every town the party enters falls in love with him and not with you. But that part of you also knows he deserves that love. Even needs it.

I am certain there is not a single fault that you or anyone could find with such a character.

You mean Sten?

[Ulicus]

David Gaider wrote...

Next time we put in a male lead, we will make sure to make him the manliest and most stoic creature you could possibly imagine. Just for you. He will be so manly he will suck the body hair right off of John Wayne and make Chuck Norris weep with envy. He will never show a single emotion, not even at his grandmother's funeral, and will never utter a single complaint about your actions... he will simply reach out of the game, slap you across the face and then take over the party.

Maddox? Is that you?

Modifié par Ulicus, 18 janvier 2010 - 09:55 .

[AnniLau]

Skellimancer wrote...

100% agree.

There should have been a huge risk heading off to the tower. The demon should have razed the town while you were away.

I don't actually disagree here but, unless you were reading other sources, you couldn't be sure something like that wouldn't happen the first time you made that choice.

Which, to my mind, made it a difficult decision as well.

(Edit: Oh, and I've killed Isolde twice and done the Tower twice. I can't quite bring myself to choose Connor, because I don't really think it's his fault.)

Modifié par AnniLau, 18 janvier 2010 - 09:58 .

[Fhaileas]

David Gaider wrote...

Tell you what.

Next time we put in a male lead, we will make sure to make him the manliest and most stoic creature you could possibly imagine. Just for you. He will be so manly he will suck the body hair right off of John Wayne and make Chuck Norris weep with envy. He will never show a single emotion, not even at his grandmother's funeral, and will never utter a single complaint about your actions... he will simply reach out of the game, slap you across the face and then take over the party.

The rest of the party won't mind, and neither will you... because he will be that awesome. Deep down inside you will resent him, and resent the fact that every NPC in every town the party enters falls in love with him and not with you. But that part of you also knows he deserves that love. Even needs it.

I am certain there is not a single fault that you or anyone could find with such a character.

LOL! And this is why I adore you as an RPG writer!  Alistair (IMO) is by far the most compelling and engaging of all your NPC creations.

Modifié par Fhaileas, 18 janvier 2010 - 09:57 .

[Skellimancer]

AnniLau wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

100% agree.

There should have been a huge risk heading off to the tower. The demon should have razed the town while you were away.

I don't actually disagree here but, unless you were reading other sources, you couldn't be sure something like that wouldn't happen the first time you made that choice.

Which, to my mind, made it a difficult decision as well.

That was my reasoning this playthrough, no way would i risk the town to save one child.

[dan107]

AnniLau wrote...

It's not like the 3rd option is an easy decision either...you can save the Arl's family, but you're leaving a demon rampaging around the castle to who know what effect while you go trotting off the Mage tower.

To absolutely NO effect whatsoever! Everyone remains exactly as you left them, which is ridiculous!

What should've happened, is when you came back from the mage tower, the demon should've been gone and everyone dead. With maybe one survivor to tell you "You left a demon to wait around while you wondered off somewhere, idiot! What the f*uck DID you think was gonna happen?!"

Now that would've been a pull no punches outcome, and a morbidly hilarious one. Bioware missed a great opportunity to turn a genre cliche on its head here.

[Bibdy]

AnniLau wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

100% agree.

There should have been a huge risk heading off to the tower. The demon should have razed the town while you were away.

I don't actually disagree here but, unless you were reading other sources, you couldn't be sure something like that wouldn't happen the first time you made that choice.

Which, to my mind, made it a difficult decision as well.

And that's EXACTLY why I made the decision between the 2 on the spot in my first playthrough. I went to Redcliffe first and, based on the dialogue, it seemed like all hell would break loose if I left, so I picked one, for the sake of the greater good, and went with it (although no longer hearing her scream TEEEGAAAAAHN anymore, did motivate me a little)

[Dahelia]

Caladhiel wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Dahelia wrote...
You did something to his family, people he cares for and what do you expect? Him to praise you and love you?

Of course some people are going to expect that. If they're shallow and not particularly paying attention. I mean, really, the amount of "Me! Me! Me!!" that some players exhibit it's incredibly ironic that they would actually come here and call someone else whiny.

Seriously, I am surprised you still have the patience to read in this forum, especially threads like this. The endless bickering's enough to drive a person nuts. 

He might go home and cry at night for all we know...I would feel bad.

[Skellimancer]

Caladhiel wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Dahelia wrote...
You did something to his family, people he cares for and what do you expect? Him to praise you and love you?

Of course some people are going to expect that. If they're shallow and not particularly paying attention. I mean, really, the amount of "Me! Me! Me!!" that some players exhibit it's incredibly ironic that they would actually come here and call someone else whiny.

Seriously, I am surprised you still have the patience to read in this forum, especially threads like this. The endless bickering's enough to drive a person nuts. 

Funny, i thought the writers would be pleased to hear our debates about the story. Guess they want praise or nothing.

[AnniLau]

dan107 wrote...

To absolutely NO effect whatsoever! Everyone remains exactly as you left them, which is ridiculous!

There should have been consequences, I agree, but I don't think offering that third choice was in and of itself a bad thing.

Maybe not consequences to the extent you're talking about  though.

[Dahelia]

Skellimancer wrote...

Caladhiel wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Dahelia wrote...
You did something to his family, people he cares for and what do you expect? Him to praise you and love you?

Of course some people are going to expect that. If they're shallow and not particularly paying attention. I mean, really, the amount of "Me! Me! Me!!" that some players exhibit it's incredibly ironic that they would actually come here and call someone else whiny.

Seriously, I am surprised you still have the patience to read in this forum, especially threads like this. The endless bickering's enough to drive a person nuts. 

Funny, i thought the writers would be pleased to hear our debates about the story. Guess they want praise or nothing.

No you guys just seem to complain about something so petty because Alistair is whiny but then stands up for himself and you don't like it. "Oh Alistair is a whiny little bugger...can't he just stop" "Oh Alistair yelled at me for killing his family, WTF is up with that?" 

[AnniLau]

Talk about whiny...I would have happily murder-knifed Jowan in the Mage origin, or Daveth and Jory at any time.