596 réponses à ce sujet

[DreGregoire]

ccchhhh, love posts! Come on now. This is about Alistair not David. LOL j/t. L2A

[Kalyska]

Wonderful character, that Alistair. Great writing, David.



(Please keep coming into work! We need more stories and interactions - I don't want to keep starting new games to get my fix!)

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Ignoring the OPs whine, because that is what it is.

I think one of the main issues with the Redcliffe situation is that it plays out the same way no matter what you've done beforehand, no offence to bioware but the game mechanic is flawed here.

All Scenarios played out as if Alistair is in the party
Scenario 1
Circle Tower visited first, Tower annulled, all mages dead. Redcliffe visited, Jowan killed before you find out Connor is possessed. Only one option possible, kill Connor

Scenario 2
Same as above apart from Jowan not being killed but character like Alistair doesn't believe Blood magic should be used. Only one option possible, kill Connor

Scenario 3
Same as number 2 apart from the fact Warden is fine with use of Blood Magic and Isolde is ok with making the sacrifice if it will spare Connor. Two options open but this time we're going with sacrificing Isolde

Whilst I know it all comes down to limited resources and what not, the mechanics in my opinion break this because there really should have been a "There was no other choice, you know this!" option in the dialogue before he goes majorly into his hissyfit about the situation.

Now, if the tower has been done first but the mages still alive, it then comes down to whether you can trust Connor not to go mental whilst you are away going to the tower, getting the mages and coming back.

How long would it take to get to the Tower and back? What damage could Connor cause in that time? *shrugs*

Anyway, let us then look at it from the point of view of the Tower having NOT been done first, regardless of how long it takes to get there. You go, you find out it is in dire trouble. Ok so you are now stuck with the dilemna, spend more time fixing this issue and thus giving Connor's demon more time to go nuts, or go back and take one of the other 2 options.

I think one of the major issues that causes people to be annoyed is that it takes him until you get back to camp to truly question you about it, rather than at the Castle. I wouldn't consider him half as whiny if he made his feelings more known vocally at the castle. One slight issue with that, he does actually state when you first speak to Isolde about Connor after you've slapped Teagan out of the mind control that he can only see killing Connor as possibly the only choice no matter if you done the tower first or not. He never once after that questions the situation until your back at camp unless you count the 'disapproval' points you get.

Have to wonder if this was actually one of the reasons why the 'lose both templar and mage support at the tower' route was taken out of the game due to Alistairs dislike of blood magic as well.

I also wonder if Duncan had been in the PC position and had to go with either killing Isolde or Connor, would Alistair have made the same complaint to him?

[Dahelia]

Skellimancer wrote...

Dahelia wrote...

Bibdy wrote...

Dahelia wrote...

Loghain is at fault for not only the death of his half brother but the only person who actually cared for him in a long time...Duncan...whom he considered family...and you want to let the man become a Grey Warden? The man who did all that out of not wanting Orlais to come in and help...and then BLAMED the Grey Wardens for the death of the King...so he could get the glory.

At that point, it really doesn't matter what the hell has come before. This is where he just breaks down and cannot fathom a world where the Grey Wardens aren't actually nice super happy bunny people spreading fairy dust everywhere. You have a serious shortage of Grey Wardens to face the Archdemon with, but he'd rather you rush head-first at the thing, die and let the entire country fall, than let Loghain into the order. Being glorious heroes isn't what the Grey Wardens is about, its about winning, by any means necessary. Alistair just doesn't get that, and instead throws a temper tantrum and attempts to take the throne just to get his way. And Anora points out at that moment "Is THIS the kind of man you want running the kingdom?", to that I say, "HELL, no!".

The only way I can satisfactorially get Alistair through the Landsmeet is to have a serious personal grudge on Loghain myself and to agree with Alistair's philosophy of "to hell with the world! So long as the Grey Wardens are revered as heroes, I'm happy".

I guess killing the King and blaming you is not good enough to hold a grudge...to have an assassin come after you is not good enough...

If you let Zevran live then you got a lot of nerve mentioning Assassins.

Zevran did it because he was told to by Loghain and Howe....he is just doing his job...nothing to hold against a man who wants to do his job and get paid.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Skellimancer wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I think the reason people can't handle Alistair is because he is inconviently written like a real human being. Oh, the horror. I guess we need to go back to two dimensional pixel cuttouts with simple, linear romances?

Yes please! minus the romances.

Then I suggest you go back to mindless shooter games or very 2D RPGs with pointless plots, and leave these more epic tales for the rest of us that like multidimensional game stories and experiences. That will make you happy, and give you less to whine about.

[Skellimancer]

Bibdy wrote...


The enemy is bashing at the gates, and you'd rather let everyone die than do what's necessary? That doesn't make him a bad person, that makes him a TERRIBLE Grey Warden, and a royal (no pun intended) pain in the ass for the REAL ones to drag around.

Exactly. Its not about good and evil, its about destroying the blight no matter the cost.

[Solica]

I think I like all the joinable NPC except Loghain. Mainly because I find them sort of believable, even Sten and the arrogant Morrigan. And Loghain is maybe also sort of believable, at least, he talks better than he acts.
I want to put a word of support for D. Gaider for Alistair.
The PC and Alistair have been put into a terrible situation. It would be very strange if no one expresses any kind anguish or despair at that. And that is all he does. He does pull himself together and he does his part.
He doesn't whine. The only whining is done by some forum posters. ("some"? lol, and about everything...)

I liked Alistair. Even after that lout, that bastard, came up with his "we need to talk" -line, right at my city elf's proudest moment, leaving her crushed, devestated, humiliated, laughed at, I kinda still appreciated that. There seemed to be such dimensions in her understated, low response, "I think I understand".
Now, I'll never make that bastard king again, he can forget that, . But I much liked the story aspect, like.

[Dahelia]

Skellimancer wrote...

Dahelia wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I think the reason people can't handle Alistair is because he is inconviently written like a real human being. Oh, the horror. I guess we need to go back to two dimensional pixel cuttouts with simple, linear romances?

Yes please! minus the romances.

Then stop playing RPGs..

erm... no!

Then stop complaining that they are more human than you...that is how RPGs are...characters have human emotions...they aren't like some of the JRPGs...where they are robotic.

[Addai]

Bibdy wrote...

At that point, it really doesn't matter what the hell has come before. This is where he just breaks down and cannot fathom a world where the Grey Wardens aren't actually nice super happy bunny people spreading fairy dust everywhere. You have a serious shortage of Grey Wardens to face the Archdemon with, but he'd rather you rush head-first at the thing, die and let the entire country fall, than let Loghain into the order. Being glorious heroes isn't what the Grey Wardens is about, its about winning, by any means necessary. Alistair just doesn't get that, and instead throws a temper tantrum and attempts to take the throne just to get his way. And Anora points out at that moment "Is THIS the kind of man you want running the kingdom?", to that I say, "HELL, no!".

The only way I can satisfactorially get Alistair through the Landsmeet is to have a serious personal grudge on Loghain myself and to agree with Alistair's philosophy of "to hell with the world! So long as the Grey Wardens are revered as heroes, I'm happy".

Oh give it a rest.  Honestly I don't know why Alistair-haters can't see that it could be a perfectly valid pragmatic  leadership decision not to let the man who single-handedly destroyed all of Ferelden's Grey Wardens and then put bounties on those who managed to survive to turn around and become one of them.  As I said in another thread like this, do you really want that man at your back facing the Archdemon?  You're as likely to get the sword in your own back.  And you are taking Anora's words as impartial political wisdom?  If so, I have some beachfront property in Denerim to sell you.

Modifié par Addai67, 18 janvier 2010 - 10:25 .

[Valmy]

Skellimancer wrote...
Funny, i thought the writers would be pleased to hear our debates about the story. Guess they want praise or nothing.

Huh?  He is here participating in the debate WTH do you want?  Man some of you people are biggest babies and whiners out there.  See this is a whiner.

[Sandtigress]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I think the reason people can't handle Alistair is because he is inconviently written like a real human being. Oh, the horror. I guess we need to go back to two dimensional pixel cuttouts with simple, linear romances?

Absolutely.  I think for the most part he's an entirely believable character, and you can treat him like you would a real person.  My female PCs wanted to comfort him when he was upset about losing his entire surrogate family all at once.  My cynical male PC slapped him over the head, so to speak, and told him to stop whining.


I love that the DA characters have their own personalities that you have to work with, more so even than the NWN 2 characters did, which was the first game to really introduce me to interactive non-PCs.  It makes playing this game a real pleasure, even when those characters sometimes get on your nerves.  That's what people do in real life!

[Skellimancer]

Dahelia wrote...

[
Zevran did it because he was told to by Loghain and Howe....he is just doing his job...nothing to hold against a man who wants to do his job and get paid.

Thought so.

Maker forbid the sweet cuddly romancable assassin dies, but Loghain must die because its the right thing to do.

[jennamarae]

Skellimancer wrote...

Funny, i thought the writers would be pleased to hear our debates about the story..

Where is this debate? I'd like to read it. Most of what I've seen in threads like this one is:

Player 1: I hate Alistair. He whines too much.

Player 2: You killed his family.

Player 1: So? He still whines too much.

Player 2: You killed his family and laughed at him for being upset over Duncan.

Player 1: So? Why's he got to be so whiny about it?

Player 2: You killed his family, laughed at him for being upset over Duncan, and then betrayed him by siding with the man he holds responsible for his brother's and father-figure's death in front of the entire Landsmeet thus adding humiliation to the betrayal.

Player 1: What's your point? He still shouldn't whine about it so much.

That's not a debate, it's blind hatred over one aspect of his personality that the player causes to come out. If he whines a lot in someone's game that's their own fault, not his. Most characters, not all but most, I've played have at least been sympathetic to his suffering even if they didn't understand why he felt the way he did and found him irritating at times.

[Finiffa]

Bibdy wrote...

Dahelia wrote...

I guess killing the King and blaming you is not good enough to hold a grudge...to have an assassin come after you is not good enough...

The enemy is bashing at the gates, and you'd rather let everyone die than do what's necessary? That doesn't make him a bad person, that makes him a TERRIBLE Grey Warden, and a royal (no pun intended) pain in the ass for the REAL ones to drag around.

If you're not going to do what's necessary for the sake of saving the entire world, then get out of my unit, sit down and shut the **** up.

If it wasn't for Loghain there would not have been such a great shortage of Grey Wardens in the first place......

[Dahelia]

Bibdy wrote...

Dahelia wrote...

I guess killing the King and blaming you is not good enough to hold a grudge...to have an assassin come after you is not good enough...

The enemy is bashing at the gates, and you'd rather let everyone die than do what's necessary? That doesn't make him a bad person, that makes him a TERRIBLE Grey Warden, and a royal (no pun intended) pain in the ass for the REAL ones to drag around.

If you're not going to do what's necessary for the sake of saving the entire world, then get out of my unit, sit down and shut the **** up.

I killed Loghain myself...the second time around, the first time I let him live...and he was a little annoying...he was in competition with Sten on who I wish to beat first.

[Dahelia]

Skellimancer wrote...

Dahelia wrote...

[
Zevran did it because he was told to by Loghain and Howe....he is just doing his job...nothing to hold against a man who wants to do his job and get paid.

Thought so.

Maker forbid the sweet cuddly romancable assassin dies, but Loghain must die because its the right thing to do.

Didn't say I let him live now did I....and I didn't say I killed Loghain my first playthrough...

[Skellimancer]

Dahelia wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

Dahelia wrote...

[
Zevran did it because he was told to by Loghain and Howe....he is just doing his job...nothing to hold against a man who wants to do his job and get paid.

Thought so.

Maker forbid the sweet cuddly romancable assassin dies, but Loghain must die because its the right thing to do.

Didn't say I let him live now did I....and I didn't say I killed Loghain my first playthrough...

Just as i saved Conner in a playthough...

[Skellimancer]

Umanix wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

Cut it out! i am eating...

Your reaction...it hurts. Stop breaking my heart, BB.

dawwww

[Bibdy]

Addai67 wrote...
Oh give it a rest.  Honestly I don't know why Alistair-haters can't see that it could be a perfectly valid pragmatic  leadership decision not to let the man who single-handedly destroyed all of Ferelden's Grey Wardens and then put bounties on those who managed to survive to turn around and become one of them.  As I said in another thread like this, do you really want that man at your back facing the Archdemon?  You're as likely to get the sword in your own back.  And you are taking Anora's words as impartial political wisdom?  If so, I have some beachfront property in Denerim to sell you.

So you subscribe to the Grey Wardens being majestic heroes of awesomeness, too? None of that is the point. 2 facts remain:

1) The Darkspawn are coming...NOW
2) You need Grey Wardens, BIG TIME

Alistair doesn't care. Like I said, this doesn't ultimately make him a bad person, of course not, but what it does make him is a sad excuse for a Grey Warden and I can't justifiably keep that idiot around to the end of the game without pretending like I feel the same way. It kinda irritates me that I have to break character just to keep him in my party.

[Dahelia]

Bibdy wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Oh give it a rest.  Honestly I don't know why Alistair-haters can't see that it could be a perfectly valid pragmatic  leadership decision not to let the man who single-handedly destroyed all of Ferelden's Grey Wardens and then put bounties on those who managed to survive to turn around and become one of them.  As I said in another thread like this, do you really want that man at your back facing the Archdemon?  You're as likely to get the sword in your own back.  And you are taking Anora's words as impartial political wisdom?  If so, I have some beachfront property in Denerim to sell you.

So you subscribe to the Grey Wardens being majestic heroes of awesomeness, too? None of that is the point. 2 facts remain:

1) The Darkspawn are coming...NOW
2) You need Grey Wardens, BIG TIME

Alistair doesn't care. Like I said, this doesn't ultimately make him a bad person, of course not, but what it does make him is a sad excuse for a Grey Warden and I can't justifiably keep that idiot around to the end of the game without pretending like I feel the same way. It kinda irritates me that I have to break character just to keep him in my party.

Loghain and Anora just want Loghain to live so he can take all the credit....wait who said that before...*thinks*

[Bibdy]

Finiffa wrote...

If it wasn't for Loghain there would not have been such a great shortage of Grey Wardens in the first place......

Which isn't the point, at all. The enemy is coming... RIGHT NOW. You have the option of putting Loghain in the Grey Wardens for more manpower. Do you risk the safety of the entire country, or do you do what is necessary and allow this unscrupulous assjacket into the Grey Wardens? Are you roleplaying a naieve, glory-seeking fool or a realist?

[Dahelia]

Bibdy wrote...

Finiffa wrote...

If it wasn't for Loghain there would not have been such a great shortage of Grey Wardens in the first place......

Which isn't the point, at all. The enemy is coming... RIGHT NOW. You have the option of putting Loghain in the Grey Wardens for more manpower. Do you risk the safety of the entire country, or do you do what is necessary and allow this unscrupulous assjacket into the Grey Wardens? Are you roleplaying a naieve, glory-seeking fool or a realist?

It takes all but 3 seconds to slit Loghain's throat....doesn't take 3 days for it to happen, he dies instantly and all the blood especially on his annoying little brat of a daughter was great.

[Skellimancer]

Dahelia wrote...

Bibdy wrote...

Finiffa wrote...

If it wasn't for Loghain there would not have been such a great shortage of Grey Wardens in the first place......

Which isn't the point, at all. The enemy is coming... RIGHT NOW. You have the option of putting Loghain in the Grey Wardens for more manpower. Do you risk the safety of the entire country, or do you do what is necessary and allow this unscrupulous assjacket into the Grey Wardens? Are you roleplaying a naieve, glory-seeking fool or a realist?

It takes all but 3 seconds to slit Loghain's throat....doesn't take 3 days for it to happen, he dies instantly and all the blood especially on his annoying little brat of a daughter was great.

So was sending Alistair to his execution.