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[Dahelia]

Skellimancer wrote...

Dahelia wrote...

Bibdy wrote...

Finiffa wrote...

If it wasn't for Loghain there would not have been such a great shortage of Grey Wardens in the first place......

Which isn't the point, at all. The enemy is coming... RIGHT NOW. You have the option of putting Loghain in the Grey Wardens for more manpower. Do you risk the safety of the entire country, or do you do what is necessary and allow this unscrupulous assjacket into the Grey Wardens? Are you roleplaying a naieve, glory-seeking fool or a realist?

It takes all but 3 seconds to slit Loghain's throat....doesn't take 3 days for it to happen, he dies instantly and all the blood especially on his annoying little brat of a daughter was great.

So was sending Alistair to his execution.

It was easier to kill Loghain, the options were there first since I had already made Alistair king AGAINST Alistair's wishes.

[Bibdy]

Dahelia wrote...

Loghain and Anora just want Loghain to live so he can take all the credit....wait who said that before...*thinks*

Who CARES who takes the credit? Are you going to allow thousands of people to die and then tell yourselves at night (assuming you live) that "Its okay, guys. As long as Loghain didn't get the credit". We're talking end of the world scenario, here. If Loghain gets credit, well thank the freaking Maker! At least nobody else has to die, because I didn't have the grapes to allow him into the Grey Wardens.

[Finiffa]

Bibdy wrote...

Finiffa wrote...

If it wasn't for Loghain there would not have been such a great shortage of Grey Wardens in the first place......

Which isn't the point, at all. The enemy is coming... RIGHT NOW. You have the option of putting Loghain in the Grey Wardens for more manpower. Do you risk the safety of the entire country, or do you do what is necessary and allow this unscrupulous assjacket into the Grey Wardens? Are you roleplaying a naieve, glory-seeking fool or a realist?

I AM a realist. I fully expect Loghain to stick a knife in my back as soon as it's turned.....he told me minutes before (just before I beat him in the duel) that he doesnt believe there is a Blight and even IF there is he doubts that Grey Wardens are needed at all to defeat a Blight.....So I am to believe he changed all of those believes in a matter of minutes????

Modifié par Finiffa, 18 janvier 2010 - 10:36 .

[xgiovedi]

I don't know how to feel after reading threads like this. Some people take criticism against Alistair as if it's a personal insult. Some people just don't like Alistair and I don't think there's any "debating" them out of that. People who don't like Alistair aren't bad or evil people, they just have different tastes. Mr. Gaider, I'm sure you're pointing at the screen and laughing at us for debating something like this

Personally, I don't think all RPGs have to have some epic love story to be considered good. DA:O would still be excellent to me without romancing anyone and we're just one awesome runnin crew. But since DA:O does have romances, I would have loved for a character like Sten to be romancable. He doesn't try to make everything one huge awkward joke and you really have to work to get him to consider you an equal (I got him in Lothering and he didn't really even call me "kadan" (I think that's the word) until Landsmeet)..

[Skellimancer]

Dahelia wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

Dahelia wrote...

Bibdy wrote...

Finiffa wrote...

If it wasn't for Loghain there would not have been such a great shortage of Grey Wardens in the first place......

Which isn't the point, at all. The enemy is coming... RIGHT NOW. You have the option of putting Loghain in the Grey Wardens for more manpower. Do you risk the safety of the entire country, or do you do what is necessary and allow this unscrupulous assjacket into the Grey Wardens? Are you roleplaying a naieve, glory-seeking fool or a realist?

It takes all but 3 seconds to slit Loghain's throat....doesn't take 3 days for it to happen, he dies instantly and all the blood especially on his annoying little brat of a daughter was great.

So was sending Alistair to his execution.

It was easier to kill Loghain, the options were there first since I had already made Alistair king AGAINST Alistair's wishes.

How is it easier if i have to swing a sword? and no i would not let Alistair do it, he is terrible with a greatsword.

[Skellimancer]

Bibdy wrote...

Dahelia wrote...

Loghain and Anora just want Loghain to live so he can take all the credit....wait who said that before...*thinks*

Who CARES who takes the credit? Are you going to allow thousands of people to die and then tell yourselves at night (assuming you live) that "Its okay, guys. As long as Loghain didn't get the credit". We're talking end of the world scenario, here. If Loghain gets credit, well thank the freaking Maker! At least nobody else has to die, because I didn't have the grapes to allow him into the Grey Wardens.

Well said.

[Dahelia]

Bibdy wrote...

Dahelia wrote...

Loghain and Anora just want Loghain to live so he can take all the credit....wait who said that before...*thinks*

Who CARES who takes the credit? Are you going to allow thousands of people to die and then tell yourselves at night (assuming you live) that "Its okay, guys. As long as Loghain didn't get the credit". We're talking end of the world scenario, here. If Loghain gets credit, well thank the freaking Maker! At least nobody else has to die, because I didn't have the grapes to allow him into the Grey Wardens.

Thousands and Thousands of people already died at Ostagar because of Loghain....and a whole town was destroyed because of him as well, because he ran like a little chicken....because oh no...Orlais might  come and help..

[TyroneTasty]

While we're on the topic of whiny characters, I really didn't like how so many of the characters had opinions (whining) regarding what I did. Why couldn't they just agree with me all the time and tell me how great I am? I'm the hero dammit! Listen to me! I mean, I already have a hard enough time with people liking me in the real world, actually no one does because I keep telling them to stop complaining about their problems (like their mom dying, lol, stop whining already, that was a week ago!) so, anyway, it really upsets me that I have to deal with characters in a VIDEO GAME that I have to actually pay attention to and consider their feelings whenever I want to burn a crate full of kittens.

[Bibdy]

Dahelia wrote...

It takes all but 3 seconds to slit Loghain's throat....doesn't take 3 days for it to happen, he dies instantly and all the blood especially on his annoying little brat of a daughter was great.

Sure, you get a moment's satisfaction, but was it the right thing to do?

See, all of this is why I LOVE DA:O. The morally ambiguous choices you get to make are awesome. I think it would be rather disappointing to play through a story of this calibre and not feel even a hint of regret for doing what's 'good', but not what's 'right'.

[Skellimancer]

Finiffa wrote...

Bibdy wrote...

Finiffa wrote...

If it wasn't for Loghain there would not have been such a great shortage of Grey Wardens in the first place......

Which isn't the point, at all. The enemy is coming... RIGHT NOW. You have the option of putting Loghain in the Grey Wardens for more manpower. Do you risk the safety of the entire country, or do you do what is necessary and allow this unscrupulous assjacket into the Grey Wardens? Are you roleplaying a naieve, glory-seeking fool or a realist?

I AM a realist. I fully expect Loghain to stick a knife in my back as soon as it's turned.....he told me minutes before (just before I beat him in the duel) that he doesnt believe there is a Blight and even IF there is he doubts that Grey Wardens are needed at all to defeat a Blight.....So I am to believe he changed all of that believes in a matter of minutes????

Pro tip: after you become a warden you see the Archdemon in a "dream".

[Dahelia]

Skellimancer wrote...

Dahelia wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

Dahelia wrote...

Bibdy wrote...

Finiffa wrote...

If it wasn't for Loghain there would not have been such a great shortage of Grey Wardens in the first place......

Which isn't the point, at all. The enemy is coming... RIGHT NOW. You have the option of putting Loghain in the Grey Wardens for more manpower. Do you risk the safety of the entire country, or do you do what is necessary and allow this unscrupulous assjacket into the Grey Wardens? Are you roleplaying a naieve, glory-seeking fool or a realist?

It takes all but 3 seconds to slit Loghain's throat....doesn't take 3 days for it to happen, he dies instantly and all the blood especially on his annoying little brat of a daughter was great.

So was sending Alistair to his execution.

It was easier to kill Loghain, the options were there first since I had already made Alistair king AGAINST Alistair's wishes.

How is it easier if i have to swing a sword? and no i would not let Alistair do it, he is terrible with a greatsword.

Actually it was dagger....

[SusanStoHelit]

David Gaider wrote...

Tell you what.

Next time we put in a male lead, we will make sure to make him the manliest and most stoic creature you could possibly imagine. Just for you. He will be so manly he will suck the body hair right off of John Wayne and make Chuck Norris weep with envy. He will never show a single emotion, not even at his grandmother's funeral, and will never utter a single complaint about your actions... he will simply reach out of the game, slap you across the face and then take over the party.

The rest of the party won't mind, and neither will you... because he will be that awesome. Deep down inside you will resent him, and resent the fact that every NPC in every town the party enters falls in love with him and not with you. But that part of you also knows he deserves that love. Even needs it.

I am certain there is not a single fault that you or anyone could find with such a character.

I think I love you Mr Gaider - or at least your writing.

I love characters that are varied, that aren't sycophantic yes-men, that have flaws and foibles as well as strengths, that argue with me and each other. And Alistair is perfect as he is. Which is to say - he's not 'perfect'. Conan the Barbarian, Rambo, and all the other macho stereotypes are just plain boring. 

Don't give them their cardboard cut-out dollies, David. Make all the whiners who don't want companions to act like real people suffer.

[Dahelia]

Bibdy wrote...

Dahelia wrote...

It takes all but 3 seconds to slit Loghain's throat....doesn't take 3 days for it to happen, he dies instantly and all the blood especially on his annoying little brat of a daughter was great.

Sure, you get a moment's satisfaction, but was it the right thing to do?

See, all of this is why I LOVE DA:O. The morally ambiguous choices you get to make are awesome. I think it would be rather disappointing to play through a story of this calibre and not feel even a hint of regret for doing what's 'good', but not what's 'right'.

To me? Yeah, it was the right thing to do...but you know what, it is also the right thing to let him live and make him sleep with Morrigan...because it is just funny.

[Skellimancer]

TyroneTasty wrote...

While we're on the topic of whiny characters, I really didn't like how so many of the characters had opinions (whining) regarding what I did. Why couldn't they just agree with me all the time and tell me how great I am? I'm the hero dammit! Listen to me! I mean, I already have a hard enough time with people liking me in the real world, actually no one does because I keep telling them to stop complaining about their problems (like their mom dying, lol, stop whining already, that was a week ago!) so, anyway, it really upsets me that I have to deal with characters in a VIDEO GAME that I have to actually pay attention to and consider their feelings whenever I want to burn a crate full of kittens.

100% agreed.

Seriously though, Sten always approved of what i did, as did Shale.

[Eruanna Guerrein]

Skellimancer wrote...

Dahelia wrote...

Bibdy wrote...

Dahelia wrote...

Loghain is at fault for not only the death of his half brother but the only person who actually cared for him in a long time...Duncan...whom he considered family...and you want to let the man become a Grey Warden? The man who did all that out of not wanting Orlais to come in and help...and then BLAMED the Grey Wardens for the death of the King...so he could get the glory.

At that point, it really doesn't matter what the hell has come before. This is where he just breaks down and cannot fathom a world where the Grey Wardens aren't actually nice super happy bunny people spreading fairy dust everywhere. You have a serious shortage of Grey Wardens to face the Archdemon with, but he'd rather you rush head-first at the thing, die and let the entire country fall, than let Loghain into the order. Being glorious heroes isn't what the Grey Wardens is about, its about winning, by any means necessary. Alistair just doesn't get that, and instead throws a temper tantrum and attempts to take the throne just to get his way. And Anora points out at that moment "Is THIS the kind of man you want running the kingdom?", to that I say, "HELL, no!".

The only way I can satisfactorially get Alistair through the Landsmeet is to have a serious personal grudge on Loghain myself and to agree with Alistair's philosophy of "to hell with the world! So long as the Grey Wardens are revered as heroes, I'm happy".

I guess killing the King and blaming you is not good enough to hold a grudge...to have an assassin come after you is not good enough...

If you let Zevran live then you got a lot of nerve mentioning Assassins.

Zev was paid to do a job. Loghain has a personal and vested interest in seeing you dead and tried multiple times to make it happen. Hardly the same thing.

[Addai]

Bibdy wrote...

So you subscribe to the Grey Wardens being majestic heroes of awesomeness, too? None of that is the point. 2 facts remain:

1) The Darkspawn are coming...NOW
2) You need Grey Wardens, BIG TIME

Uh... no.  I am saying that defeating the Archdemon requires more than adding that one other Grey Warden, and oh yeah, the very one who single-handedly all but destroyed the order in Ferelden to begin with, stole the archdemon blood to prevent wardens from recruiting, and hunted down any GW survivors.  It is not (only) about revenge or justice, it is about not trusting that kind of man with the order's secrets and with your own lives as compatriots.  Just because we metagame-know that Loghain does honorably defeat the Archdemon if given the chance does not mean that a PC in that position would know that or want to take the chance.  Loghain's track record on this score isn't exactly stellar.  Why not recruit Bann Teagan or someone else if sheer numbers is the only concern that matters?

And who, WHO, says you have to kill Loghain?  Isn't that why we are discussing it in the first place?

[Skellimancer]

Dahelia wrote...


Actually it was dagger....

No it wasn't. open your damned eyes.

[Bibdy]

Dahelia wrote...

Thousands and Thousands of people already died at Ostagar because of Loghain....and a whole town was destroyed because of him as well, because he ran like a little chicken....because oh no...Orlais might  come and help..

You can stab him through the face and ****** on his corpse after the battle all you want. I'm not saying I LIKE Loghain here. He's a total ****bucket and deserves to die. I'm saying that letting him in the Grey Wardens is the right thing to do to combat the threat and save the fricking world. But, Alistair jumps in with this ridiculous personal view of the Grey Wardens and demands you don't let him in, because that just sullies their good name. Well boo hoo there, candy pants. Time to let the real men go save the damn world then!

[Skellimancer]

Eruanna Guerrein wrote...



Zev was paid to do a job. Loghain has a personal and vested interest in seeing you dead and tried multiple times to make it happen. Hardly the same thing.

Romancable = save thier souls!

[Xandurpein]

The ting is that many of us seem to accept just about any contradiction the developers can think of in a character as long as the companion is sufficiently "cool" by whatever standard we use to measure it by. Is Alistair being unreasonable and illogic sometimes? sure. Is he even close to Morrigan in that respect... not even by a longshot.

Come on. Morrigan is a walking contradiction. She claims one thing and is upset if you do the other all the time if you romance her. Did you believe when she said she had no designs on yourfreedom... you sure hear differently when you try to chat up Leliana.

But Morrigan is "cool" in that sexy, black leather, femme fatale way, that means that everything is forgiven, and Alistair is not "cool" enough, so he is a wimp for being less than half as contradictionary as Morrigan.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 18 janvier 2010 - 10:40 .

[Skellimancer]

Bibdy wrote...

Dahelia wrote...

Thousands and Thousands of people already died at Ostagar because of Loghain....and a whole town was destroyed because of him as well, because he ran like a little chicken....because oh no...Orlais might  come and help..

You can stab him through the face and ****** on his corpse after the battle all you want. I'm not saying I LIKE Loghain here. He's a total ****bucket and deserves to die. I'm saying that letting him in the Grey Wardens is the right thing to do to combat the threat and save the fricking world. But, Alistair jumps in with this ridiculous personal view of the Grey Wardens and demands you don't let him in, because that just sullies their good name. Well boo hoo there, candy pants. Time to let the real men go save the damn world then!

Yes. i use Loghain to kill the Archdemon, a much better way to execute him if you really want too, and it does the world some good.

[Eruanna Guerrein]

Bibdy wrote...

Dahelia wrote...

I guess killing the King and blaming you is not good enough to hold a grudge...to have an assassin come after you is not good enough...

The enemy is bashing at the gates, and you'd rather let everyone die than do what's necessary? That doesn't make him a bad person, that makes him a TERRIBLE Grey Warden, and a royal (no pun intended) pain in the ass for the REAL ones to drag around.

If you're not going to do what's necessary for the sake of saving the entire world, then get out of my unit, sit down and shut the **** up.

I've done damn well with the companions I already have and done so while Mr. I'm the ONLY one who can save Ferelden was doing all he could to stop me. We've already bested him time and again. Why exactly must I now think that not taking Loghain is going to result in everyone dying?

[Skellimancer]

Xandurpein wrote...

The ting is that many of us seem to accept just about any contradiction the developers can think of in a character as long as the companion is sufficiently "cool" by whatever standard we use to measure it by. Is Alistair being unreasonable and illogic sometimes? sure. Is he even close to Morrigan in that respect... not even by a longshot.

Come on. Morrigan is a walking contradiction. She claims one thing and is upset if you do the other all the time if you romance her. Did you believe when she said she had no designs on yourfreedom... you sure hear differently when you try to chat up Leliana.

But Morrigan is "cool" in that sexy, black leather, femme fatale way, that means that everything is forgiven, and Alistair is not "cool" enough, so he is a wimp for being less than half as contradictionary as Morrigan.

Don't get me started on that hag..

[Dahelia]

Bibdy wrote...

Dahelia wrote...

Thousands and Thousands of people already died at Ostagar because of Loghain....and a whole town was destroyed because of him as well, because he ran like a little chicken....because oh no...Orlais might  come and help..

You can stab him through the face and ****** on his corpse after the battle all you want. I'm not saying I LIKE Loghain here. He's a total ****bucket and deserves to die. I'm saying that letting him in the Grey Wardens is the right thing to do to combat the threat and save the fricking world. But, Alistair jumps in with this ridiculous personal view of the Grey Wardens and demands you don't let him in, because that just sullies their good name. Well boo hoo there, candy pants. Time to let the real men go save the damn world then!

I let him become a Grey Warden my first playthrough and he was more annoying than Alistair..."You don't like me" "You don't trust me" so...he got to sleep with Morrigan and we all lived..oh yes we did...he didn't get to do anything, I didn't even take him with me to go after the Archdemon, he got to sit and guard the gate.