596 réponses à ce sujet

[Bibdy]

Addai67 wrote...

Uh... no.  I am saying that defeating the Archdemon requires more than adding that one other Grey Warden, and oh yeah, the very one who single-handedly all but destroyed the order in Ferelden to begin with, stole the archdemon blood to prevent wardens from recruiting, and hunted down any GW survivors.  It is not (only) about revenge or justice, it is about not trusting that kind of man with the order's secrets and with your own lives as compatriots.  Just because we metagame-know that Loghain does honorably defeat the Archdemon if given the chance does not mean that a PC in that position would know that or want to take the chance.  Loghain's track record on this score isn't exactly stellar.  Why not recruit Bann Teagan or someone else if sheer numbers is the only concern that matters?

And who, WHO, says you have to kill Loghain?  Isn't that why we are discussing it in the first place?

Well because apparently, even when the chips are down, you still only allow 'volunteers' (unlike the Dwarves and the Anvil). I dunno. I didn't get that, either.

Regardless, with no meta-game knowledge, you have no idea how successful you're going to be, and the more manpower the better. I would have been happier if Rijordan spilled the beans then and there so you could use the "only a Grey Warden can kill an Archdemon" ammunition to settle the argument once and for all.

[xgiovedi]

TyroneTasty wrote...
...I mean, I already have a hard enough time with people liking me in the real world, actually no one does because I keep telling them to stop complaining about their problems (like their mom dying, lol, stop whining already, that was a week ago!)...

lol That's funny you mention that, because if you play a Human Noble, your parents and people you've known your entire life were killed in an instant. Then if you attempt to get revenge or go find your brother to warn him, you get told from different people  "Hey, that's not a good idea right now."

When Alistair asks you in camp after talking out his feelings about Duncan's death for 5-10 minutes, he asks "Has anyone close to you ever died?" You can say "My entire family was just murdered", he'll reply with "Oh how could I forget? I'm really sorry." Then about 1 or 2 more sentences and the conversation ends lol.

As much as I do like Alistair, I don't understand why he's allowed to be sad and express it, while my Human Noble just needs to remember that she's a Warden now, you just focus on the Blight, got it? Bye.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Bibdy wrote...

Finiffa wrote...

If it wasn't for Loghain there would not have been such a great shortage of Grey Wardens in the first place......

Which isn't the point, at all. The enemy is coming... RIGHT NOW. You have the option of putting Loghain in the Grey Wardens for more manpower. Do you risk the safety of the entire country, or do you do what is necessary and allow this unscrupulous assjacket into the Grey Wardens? Are you roleplaying a naieve, glory-seeking fool or a realist?

Uh, not putting Loghain in your party is NOT risking the entire country, world, whatever. It's an option, that's all, and an option that really doesn't matter. Killing him is just as viable an option to ending the blight as not. Since as far as you know, at the time, one more frigging Grey warden ain't going to make a signifigant difference.

Without meta-gaming, as far as you know, letting Loghain live could very well endanger your chances. You have no reason to trust him, he's tried to wipe you out a few times, already wiped out almost all the Grey Wardens once, and has shown himself more worried about orlais than a potential blight. The Joining doesn't erase your mind, motivations, loves, hates, or loyal;ties, there is no guarantee that Loghain will really help you. 

As far as all this crap about "ending the blight at all costs", you people really need to pay attention. Some people think this gives them a carte blanche to run amok being complete, ruthless ****s and taking the easy way out, when other options exist. What would Duncan do? let's have a look.

In every origin story, Duncan is greeted with respect and admiration by those around him. Obviously, if he was running amok without any regard to the consequences of his actions or how they would effect people, he would not be as widely respected. Each time he encounters your character, he first INVITES you to join. He doesn't whip out the Right of Conscription automatically, only as a last resort.

Which leads me to believe that Duncan himself would only use extreme measures when there were no viable or reasonable options left. He seems to prefer seeking a more amicable solution before whipping out the "Well, sod it, gotta put some hurt on someone to end the blight" option.

End rant. Back on topic.

I love Alistair. There.

[Skellimancer]

Dahelia wrote...

Bibdy wrote...

Dahelia wrote...

Thousands and Thousands of people already died at Ostagar because of Loghain....and a whole town was destroyed because of him as well, because he ran like a little chicken....because oh no...Orlais might  come and help..

You can stab him through the face and ****** on his corpse after the battle all you want. I'm not saying I LIKE Loghain here. He's a total ****bucket and deserves to die. I'm saying that letting him in the Grey Wardens is the right thing to do to combat the threat and save the fricking world. But, Alistair jumps in with this ridiculous personal view of the Grey Wardens and demands you don't let him in, because that just sullies their good name. Well boo hoo there, candy pants. Time to let the real men go save the damn world then!

I let him become a Grey Warden my first playthrough and he was more annoying than Alistair..."You don't like me" "You don't trust me" so...he got to sleep with Morrigan and we all lived..oh yes we did...he didn't get to do anything, I didn't even take him with me to go after the Archdemon, he got to sit and guard the gate.

/facepalm.

[Dahelia]

Skellimancer wrote...

Dahelia wrote...

Bibdy wrote...

Dahelia wrote...

Thousands and Thousands of people already died at Ostagar because of Loghain....and a whole town was destroyed because of him as well, because he ran like a little chicken....because oh no...Orlais might  come and help..

You can stab him through the face and ****** on his corpse after the battle all you want. I'm not saying I LIKE Loghain here. He's a total ****bucket and deserves to die. I'm saying that letting him in the Grey Wardens is the right thing to do to combat the threat and save the fricking world. But, Alistair jumps in with this ridiculous personal view of the Grey Wardens and demands you don't let him in, because that just sullies their good name. Well boo hoo there, candy pants. Time to let the real men go save the damn world then!

I let him become a Grey Warden my first playthrough and he was more annoying than Alistair..."You don't like me" "You don't trust me" so...he got to sleep with Morrigan and we all lived..oh yes we did...he didn't get to do anything, I didn't even take him with me to go after the Archdemon, he got to sit and guard the gate.

/facepalm.

I did like him for one reason and one reason only...he was nice to my dog Cujo.

[Addai]

Skellimancer wrote...
Yes. i use Loghain to kill the Archdemon, a much better way to execute him if you really want too, and it does the world some good.

And of course you know that he is going to do this, by the magical powers given you by the Spoiler spell...

[Finiffa]

Dahelia wrote...

I let him become a Grey Warden my first playthrough and he was more annoying than Alistair..."You don't like me" "You don't trust me" so...he got to sleep with Morrigan and we all lived..oh yes we did...he didn't get to do anything, I didn't even take him with me to go after the Archdemon, he got to sit and guard the gate.

Oooh, now there's an interesting playthrough......I may get that recruitment achievement after all

[Skellimancer]

Addai67 wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...
Yes. i use Loghain to kill the Archdemon, a much better way to execute him if you really want too, and it does the world some good.

And of course you know that he is going to do this, by the magical powers given you by the Spoiler spell...

If he didn't i would have killed him then killed the Archdemon myself.

[Bibdy]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Uh, not putting Loghain in your party is NOT risking the entire country, world, whatever. It's an option, that's all, and an option that really doesn't matter. Killing him is just as viable an option to ending the blight as not. Since as far as you know, at the time, one more frigging Grey warden ain't going to make a signifigant difference.

Without meta-gaming, as far as you know, letting Loghain live could very well endanger your chances. You have no reason to trust him, he's tried to wipe you out a few times, already wiped out almost all the Grey Wardens once, and has shown himself more worried about orlais than a potential blight. The Joining doesn't erase your mind, motivations, loves, hates, or loyal;ties, there is no guarantee that Loghain will really help you. 

As far as all this crap about "ending the blight at all costs", you people really need to pay attention. Some people think this gives them a carte blanche to run amok being complete, ruthless ****s and taking the easy way out, when other options exist. What would Duncan do? let's have a look.

In every origin story, Duncan is greeted with respect and admiration by those around him. Obviously, if he was running amok without any regard to the consequences of his actions or how they would effect people, he would not be as widely respected. Each time he encounters your character, he first INVITES you to join. He doesn't whip out the Right of Conscription automatically, only as a last resort.

Which leads me to believe that Duncan himself would only use extreme measures when there were no viable or reasonable options left. He seems to prefer seeking a more amicable solution before whipping out the "Well, sod it, gotta put some hurt on someone to end the blight" option.

See, this is where you're as bad as Alistair is. What matters is Duncan DOES invoke the Right of Conscription. He IS capable of doing what is necessary, even when the diplomatic option fails, even if it means telling a kid, in front of his/her dying parents that "You're in the army now, so shut up and come with me" (Human Noble Origin if you refuse to go). Alistair, obviously, is not. He's just a bad Grey Warden. He's too nice. Too naieve.

I'd prefer not having to put Loghain in the Wardens, either. But hey, the option is presented and balancing 'potential death of an entire country' vs 'increasing your odds of survival by letting Loghain live for another couple of days then chop his head off' didn't seem so bad.

Modifié par Bibdy, 18 janvier 2010 - 10:51 .

[Ethical Scabs]

Bibdy wrote...


See, this is where you're as bad as Alistair is. What matters is Duncan DOES invoke the Right of Conscription. He IS capable of doing what is necessary, even when the diplomatic option fails, even if it means telling a kid, in front of his/her dying parents that "You're in the army now, so shut up and come with me" (Human Noble Origin if you refuse to go). Alistair, obviously, is not. He's just a bad Grey Warden. He's too nice. Too naieve.

I'd prefer not having to put Loghain in the Wardens, either. But hey, the option is presented and balancing 'potential death of an entire country' vs 'increasing your odds of survival by letting Loghain live for another couple of days then chop his head off' didn't seem so bad.

I'd just like to point out that this is a man with a proven track record of running away from Darkspawn hordes.   That's why I wouldn't take him.

[Addai]

Skellimancer wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...
Yes. i use Loghain to kill the Archdemon, a much better way to execute him if you really want too, and it does the world some good.

And of course you know that he is going to do this, by the magical powers given you by the Spoiler spell...

If he didn't i would have killed him then killed the Archdemon myself.

...Then since you are just that awesome, why would you need Loghain at all?  Only Riordan knows that a GW sacrifice will be required.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of what your character should do.  The reason we can debate it is that it's an actual choice with pros and cons.  But the idea that killing Loghain is only about emotion is ridiculous.

[Sandtigress]

Bibdy wrote...

See, this is where you're as bad as Alistair is. What matters is Duncan DOES invoke the Right of Conscription. He IS capable of doing what is necessary, even when the diplomatic option fails, even if it means telling a kid, in front of his/her dying parents that "You're in the army now, so shut up and come with me" (Human Noble Origin if you refuse to go). Alistair, obviously, is not. He's just a bad Grey Warden. He's too nice. Too naieve.

I'd prefer not having to put Loghain in the Wardens, either. But hey, the option is presented and balancing 'potential death of an entire country' vs 'increasing your odds of survival by letting Loghain live for another couple of days then chop his head off' didn't seem so bad.

But really, does every Grey Warden need to be capable of doing that?  To try and not spoiler the books, the Commander of the Wardens recruits someone no one else thought she should recruit.  Maybe she had her own reasons for doing so, maybe she did it for the good of the order, but she did what she wanted the way she wanted it done.  There wasn't a Warden in her command who agreed with it.

There's a reason why Duncan is the Warden Commander in Ferelden - he can make choices like that.  It doesn't mean that one is a bad Warden for not being able to or wanting to do so - it just makes them not Commander material, at least in some eyes.

Alistair's human (a video game human, but still).  I don't really blame him for thinking its ridiculous to let Loghain in.  Most of my characters have agreed with him - one would have given Loghain a second chance but not at the cost of losing someone she thought would be a good king, and she couldn't kill him in the end anyways, someone else had to do it.  Would you really want to fight next to someone who killed your surrogate family and your father figure and have to call the man brother?  I think I might have blown up at someone who was trying to force me to do that too.

Granted, the times were a little more drastic during the events of DA.  My Dalish elf would have preferred trying to talk Alistair down and take Loghain.  But realizing it wasn't possible, she took the king and let justice be done, albeit not the way she would have preferred.

Modifié par Sandtigress, 18 janvier 2010 - 11:01 .

[Eruanna Guerrein]

Bibdy wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Uh... no.  I am saying that defeating the Archdemon requires more than adding that one other Grey Warden, and oh yeah, the very one who single-handedly all but destroyed the order in Ferelden to begin with, stole the archdemon blood to prevent wardens from recruiting, and hunted down any GW survivors.  It is not (only) about revenge or justice, it is about not trusting that kind of man with the order's secrets and with your own lives as compatriots.  Just because we metagame-know that Loghain does honorably defeat the Archdemon if given the chance does not mean that a PC in that position would know that or want to take the chance.  Loghain's track record on this score isn't exactly stellar.  Why not recruit Bann Teagan or someone else if sheer numbers is the only concern that matters?

And who, WHO, says you have to kill Loghain?  Isn't that why we are discussing it in the first place?

Well because apparently, even when the chips are down, you still only allow 'volunteers' (unlike the Dwarves and the Anvil). I dunno. I didn't get that, either.

Regardless, with no meta-game knowledge, you have no idea how successful you're going to be, and the more manpower the better. I would have been happier if Rijordan spilled the beans then and there so you could use the "only a Grey Warden can kill an Archdemon" ammunition to settle the argument once and for all.

Exactly. But then the whole Bioware choice/consequence thing wouldn't have been in play. I think Alistair being pissed was spot on. I think Riordan, since the whole reason he gives you, at that moment, for recruiting Loghain is that we must have more GWs, would have taken you both aside at that moment and made sure you knew how an archdemon is slain and the fact that he doesn't feels forced and cheap to me. It's my one big complaint about the game.

[ejoslin]

Dahelia wrote...



I guess killing the King and blaming you is not good enough to hold a grudge...to have an assassin come after you is not good enough...

This in and of itself is reason enough to spare him!  Zevran!

Come on, I can't be the ONLY one who thought that!

Modifié par ejoslin, 18 janvier 2010 - 11:00 .

[Skellimancer]

Addai67 wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...
Yes. i use Loghain to kill the Archdemon, a much better way to execute him if you really want too, and it does the world some good.

And of course you know that he is going to do this, by the magical powers given you by the Spoiler spell...

If he didn't i would have killed him then killed the Archdemon myself.

...Then since you are just that awesome, why would you need Loghain at all?  Only Riordan knows that a GW sacrifice will be required.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of what your character should do.  The reason we can debate it is that it's an actual choice with pros and cons.  But the idea that killing Loghain is only about emotion is ridiculous.

Senior Grey Warden says "lets make loghain a Grey Warden!"
I say "OK then".
Alistair says "I'M NOT PLAYING ANYMORE!"
I say "I'm OK with this!"

[Skellimancer]

ejoslin wrote...

Dahelia wrote...



I guess killing the King and blaming you is not good enough to hold a grudge...to have an assassin come after you is not good enough...

This in and of itself is reason enough to spare him!  Zevran!

Come on, I can't be the ONLY one who thought that!

SO if Loghain was a lot younger and was romancable, you would pardon him?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Bibdy wrote...


See, this is where you're as bad as Alistair is. What matters is Duncan DOES invoke the Right of Conscription. He IS capable of doing what is necessary, even when the diplomatic option fails, even if it means telling a kid, in front of his/her dying parents that "You're in the army now, so shut up and come with me" (Human Noble Origin if you refuse to go). Alistair, obviously, is not. He's just a bad Grey Warden. He's too nice. Too naieve.

I'd prefer not having to put Loghain in the Wardens, either. But hey, the option is presented and balancing 'potential death of an entire country' vs 'increasing your odds of survival by letting Loghain live for another couple of days then chop his head off' didn't seem so bad.

No, I am not. I just pointed out that Duncan employs the less than nice guy options AFTER the nice guy part fails. In other words, he first INVITES you. Gives you the choice. It is when diplomatic/nice guy option fails, he then whips out the "Well, tough ****, you're conscripted" part.

Grey Wardens recruit nice guys right along side hardened criminals. Obviously, there is much more to being a Warden than being a hard-ass. Obviously, they need people with morals and standards as much as they need pragmtists.

The option was not presented in such a matter. Riordan suggested he would make a potentially good recruit for the Wardens. The character I played at the time strongly disagreed with his assessment and made Loghain take a nice long dirt nap. And Riordan didn't facepalm and jump around screaming "We're doomed now!" Obviously, it wasn't that vital.

Another character spared Loghain out of a twisted sense of irony. Alistair wigged out. And call me strange, but I was neither irritated nor really shocked that he did.

Because occasionally, I do actually try and look through other points of view, provided there is a point in there somewhere. Which, in the case of Alistair and Loghain, there are.

[Addai]

Ethical Scabs wrote...

I'd just like to point out that this is a man with a proven track record of running away from Darkspawn hordes.   That's why I wouldn't take him.

Exactly.  If a general is hard pressed for troops, he might take someone who is untrained, but is he going to take someone who is a proven traitor and backstabber?  The decision not to recruit Loghain is a command decision, and as a military order you are well within rights to decline the offer to have him fighting at your back.

[ejoslin]

Skellimancer wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Dahelia wrote...



I guess killing the King and blaming you is not good enough to hold a grudge...to have an assassin come after you is not good enough...

This in and of itself is reason enough to spare him!  Zevran!

Come on, I can't be the ONLY one who thought that!

SO if Loghain was a lot younger and was romancable, you would pardon him?

I've spared in him some games, killed him in others, and if he were romancable, I would definitely consider it.  He is pretty hot in a psycho insane sort of way.

[Bibdy]

Sandtigress wrote...

But really, does every Grey Warden need to be capable of doing that?  To try and not spoiler the books, the Commander of the Wardens recruits someone no one else thought she should recruit.  Maybe she had her own reasons for doing so, maybe she did it for the good of the order, but she did what she wanted the way she wanted it done.  There wasn't a Warden in her command who agreed with it.

There's a reason why Duncan is the Warden Commander in Ferelden - he can make choices like that.  It doesn't mean that one is a bad Warden for not being able to or wanting to do so - it just makes them not Commander material, at least in some eyes.

Alistair's human (a video game human, but still).  I don't really blame him for thinking its ridiculous to let Loghain in.  Most of my characters have agreed with him - one would have given Loghain a second chance but not at the cost of losing someone she thought would be a good king, and she couldn't kill him in the end anyways, someone else had to do it.  Would you really want to fight next to someone who killed your surrogate family and your father figure and have to call the man brother?  I think I might have blown up at someone who was trying to force me to do that too.

Isn't that the entire point? The Grey Wardens give away their lives (sometimes involuntarily) to save the world. No joke. They die from the Darkspawn poison, eventually. Abandoning the Grey Wardens (i.e. pull an Alistair) because you object the decisions of the Commanders (i.e. you), on a moral basis is simply cowardice, and not acceptable in any military unit. They all have to be ready to do whatever it takes, without hesitation, to defeat the Darkspawn, otherwise they fall.

Modifié par Bibdy, 18 janvier 2010 - 11:04 .

[amethyst_rose2009]

David Gaider wrote...

Tell you what.

Next time we put in a male lead, we will make sure to make him the manliest and most stoic creature you could possibly imagine. Just for you. He will be so manly he will suck the body hair right off of John Wayne and make Chuck Norris weep with envy. He will never show a single emotion, not even at his grandmother's funeral, and will never utter a single complaint about your actions... he will simply reach out of the game, slap you across the face and then take over the party.

The rest of the party won't mind, and neither will you... because he will be that awesome. Deep down inside you will resent him, and resent the fact that every NPC in every town the party enters falls in love with him and not with you. But that part of you also knows he deserves that love. Even needs it.

I am certain there is not a single fault that you or anyone could find with such a character.

David, I hope you don't let the negativity get to you.  There are many of us who feel you guys did a fantastic job on making all the characters very real and very believable.  Like real people, they have flaws and emotions, as they should.  They also have morals and views that may differ from that of your pc, and I for one am glad of that.  I don't want all of my party members to follow me blindly no matter what evil actions I may perform.  Even with Morrigan disagreeing when I do very good things.  I just shrug it off and by the end of the game she and my pc become close friends despite her not agreeing with me all the time.  I think Alistair was very well-written with an incredibly talented voice actor.  For those who have read The Stolen Throne they will see a significant similarity between young Maric and Alistair, from their goofiness to their insecurities.  I couldn't imagine Alistair being any other way and would not have written him any differently.

[Skellimancer]

ejoslin wrote...

I've spared in him some games, killed him in others, and if he were romancable, I would definitely consider it.  He is pretty hot in a psycho insane sort of way.

Dat voice.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Skellimancer wrote...

SO if Loghain was a lot younger and was romancable, you would pardon him?

Nope. Though i would inform him that he had ruined his chances of getting the best lay in his life. Right before I decaptitated him.

[Skellimancer]

Bibdy wrote...


Isn't that the entire point? The Grey Wardens give away their lives (sometimes involuntarily) to save the world. No joke. They die from the Darkspawn poison, eventually. Abandoning the Grey Wardens (i.e. pull an Alistair) because you object the decisions of the Commanders (i.e. you), on a moral basis is simply cowardice, and not acceptable in any military unit. They all have to be ready to do whatever it takes, without hesitation, to defeat the Darkspawn, otherwise they fall.

Don't forget Jory was killed for trying to leave the Grey Wardens, by Duncan himself... what would he think of Alistairs tantrum?