1109 réponses à ce sujet

[Ziggeh]

Filament wrote...

What do you mean by "mistakes"? How would you account for them?

Fights going badly. You make it out, but in a crippled state. In a system where rolling back into town before trying again is an option, in that situation you're asking people to make a choice between a risk, or possibly outright failure and tedium.

Ability should definitely be rewarded but that doesn't mean the punishment can't or shouldn't be interesting or even fun.

This is just spitballing as I don't have a perfect solution:

Say you had 10 potions and they can heal or regen mana/stamina. You can only carry 10 and once you're in a dungeon, you can't go back for more. You can use these potions to restore your broken party, but at the cost of losing a safety net in the upcoming battles.

Just "potions", I'm not keen on at all, as gold value as a penalty is really abstract making such choices not all that meaningful.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 07 août 2013 - 07:00 .

[GameHunter]

esper wrote...

GameHunter wrote...

Why does no health regen mean automatic backtracking?
People don't want potion overuse in fights but don't want to be left without healing
options.
What if you had potion bag with restricted amount of potions per character or per party
for one fight could work since there wont be waves so you wont always run out.
So if potions were medium rarity obtainable consumable you couldn't
use all your potions to win a fight by potions but after fight you could heal
your health lack. If people are afraid of potion aholism consumable could be bandages.

Also having inhabitated territory is not always unlikely and maybe place could have a healer
who healed you for less gold than potions cost but for set amounts of health.

I am not sure I understand you post right, because as far as I understand it you want to restict the number even more with limited number off potions so we can't spam them anymore and essentially have to rely on a healer. Something both of the other da games managed to avoid.

It means backtracking because we simply don't know the scope of this new 'larger' areas thus making it impossible for the players to predict just how much healing we need to prepare in advance, meaning that first time playing you will run into encounter you could not predict or an encounter that takes you by surprise draining your resources (and if we don't run into this it means that the fighting system is boringly easy). That basically mean that you have to reload a lot or backtrack.

And that is not what I am looking to do in an rpg.

(This is further strengten by the no level scaling thing, but that is another debate).

Oh man I really need to be more explanatory on these forums
Ok bag limits amount of potions used in next fight so you equip potions to it and you can use them in
a fight. After fight you can fill out your bag again so limits are only per fight so it doesn't force more
healer use than typical (as it doesn't affect no health regen directly) and don't force backtrack  and
don't make fight potion fest without potion cooldown mechanic.

[esper]

GameHunter wrote...

esper wrote...

GameHunter wrote...

Why does no health regen mean automatic backtracking?
People don't want potion overuse in fights but don't want to be left without healing
options.
What if you had potion bag with restricted amount of potions per character or per party
for one fight could work since there wont be waves so you wont always run out.
So if potions were medium rarity obtainable consumable you couldn't
use all your potions to win a fight by potions but after fight you could heal
your health lack. If people are afraid of potion aholism consumable could be bandages.

Also having inhabitated territory is not always unlikely and maybe place could have a healer
who healed you for less gold than potions cost but for set amounts of health.

I am not sure I understand you post right, because as far as I understand it you want to restict the number even more with limited number off potions so we can't spam them anymore and essentially have to rely on a healer. Something both of the other da games managed to avoid.

It means backtracking because we simply don't know the scope of this new 'larger' areas thus making it impossible for the players to predict just how much healing we need to prepare in advance, meaning that first time playing you will run into encounter you could not predict or an encounter that takes you by surprise draining your resources (and if we don't run into this it means that the fighting system is boringly easy). That basically mean that you have to reload a lot or backtrack.

And that is not what I am looking to do in an rpg.

(This is further strengten by the no level scaling thing, but that is another debate).

Oh man I really need to be more explanatory on these forums
Ok bag limits amount of potions used in next fight so you equip potions to it and you can use them in
a fight. After fight you can fill out your bag again so limits are only per fight so it doesn't force more
healer use than typical (as it doesn't affect no health regen directly) and don't force backtrack  and
don't make fight potion fest without potion cooldown mechanic.

That doesn't really solve any problem with the lack of health regen. It would still be such that if you has to back track the moment a fight took you by surprised.

Unless you are saying we have limetless potions, which is now health regen with a new name and a more tedious mechanic.

[Am1vf]

Esper, what exactly do you want combat to be? Carelessly moving forward crushing enemies?

[Ziggeh]

Filament wrote...
In NWN (or NWN2, I think) there were injury kits that, if I recall correctly, were cheaper than potions, healed injuries and health, and relied on your skill in the relevant "heal" non-combat skill (probably would fit "survival" here). I think having something like that you could invest in would be more satisfying than just lugging and chugging potions.

Yeah, something along those lines could definitely work. Balancing strategy and tactics through the skills system.

[Wulfram]

Filament wrote...

Not knowing whether I should use a spell now or later, taking measures to avoid taking damage and coming prepared in the event that I need to use a spell or do take damage, are all very much aspects of planning that aren't available in the previous auto-regen system. It basically removes all need to think strategically. Which if you want, you can argue is fine because it makes the per-combat tactics more tightly controlled. But let's not pretend it doesn't  sacrifice something.

Ah, you're positing no mana/stamina regen too, OK.  Choosing between health damage and mana/stamina expenditure could be considered planning.  I don't find it very interesting, personally.  And it all comes to naught once you allow some form of unlimited healing in.

Also, "taking measures to avoid taking damage" isn't exactly something that only applies with no health regen.  That's how you stay alive after all.

Arbitrary redefining "things I don't like." It is very much planning, since the alternative is not having potions and not being able to regen.

It's only real planning if there's a reason not to do it, so that there's an actual choice.  Which would only really apply if the economy was actually tight.

In that way, at least. It does also seem awfully presumptuous to assume the worst without knowing what options there will be.

I'm not assuming the worst.  At most, I'm assuming that Bioware won't suddenly turn into game design savants that'll solve problems that have persisted in games for decades.

Modifié par Wulfram, 07 août 2013 - 07:17 .

[esper]

Jayne126 wrote...

esper wrote...
I have played enough games to know that no health regen + more open world means backtracking. Heck we apperently even get to be mounted (really another thing I do not care for) which means even more travelling distances. That is enough to lose my good faith.

Preparation is the key.
These two factors you mentioned hardly means backtracking but usually this:

1: Player doesn't prepare him/herself for certain situations. Most games give some sort of warning away, and even if not it doesn't hurt to think ahead.

2: Stupid game design. In that case, not the players fault.

Who knows which of these are coming true but either way I'll just quote ol' pal Illidan:

"You are not prepared!"

No  it means:

The first basicallty means that preparation equal keeping 99 potion or 999 depend on the bag limit in your bag just in case. Sure that is preparation for failure, but not really fun. And makes the whole no health regen pointless. Since you are now having free limit under a differnt name.

Else it means have enemy encounters that as so predicable that they can all be prepared for even on the first playthrough. Which takes a lot of challenge out of the game by making it entirely predictable.

Else it mean learning by trial and error which means backtracking or reloading. Neither thing which I want in a story driven rpg.

[esper]

Am1_vf wrote...

Esper, what exactly do you want combat to be? Carelessly moving forward crushing enemies?

Fun.

[The Hierophant]

I see no issue with a system that emphasizes trial and error, especially when the difficulty can be reduced for non combat orientated players. I welcome no auto regen, and level scaling as it reminds me of the older RPGs.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 07 août 2013 - 07:37 .

[GameHunter]

More on potions if potion wouldn't regularly restock on shops had set amount till your
inquisition power increases it would mean that you have to actually find more
merchants to spend gold on healing items.

Possibly do quests to get access to more better wares or merchants.
Also had alternative to make them from herbs and etc. with certain skills.
And drops from mobs.
Bought could be best while found on drops worst. If healing potion took atleast
sliver of time of action like fast cast of spell you could be more vulnerable in that time
worst potion could be not good enough for fight but out of fight you could fill up on them nicely.

Some people say too much potions bad some say too little potions are bad
but with health regen out of fight any health potions are highly redundant.

Anyway they are big team and have something in mind on how it would work and
I'm sure they can pull it off. They make good games DA 2 may have been not the best
but you should put some faith in their capabilities to making their idea in the game.

[esper]

The Hierophant wrote...

I see no issue with a system that emphasizes trial and error, especially when the difficulty can be reduced for non combat orientated players. I welcome no auto regen, and auto leveling as it reminds me of the older RPGs.

That would be fine if the areas relatively smal. So no healt regen basically just meant increasing difficulty for fights, but no time would you find yourself in an unwinnable situation.

But since they strech the whole 'Large areas', Large areas. LARGE AREAS thing so much. I am going to assume that the areas are going to be large, which mean that some good challinging fights, with a smart enemy ai, means back tracking or reloading to older saves because you suddenly find yourself out of resources.

Trial and error for a single fight is fine. Travel and error for an large area is not.

[AutumnWitch]

Doesn't health go to full and injuries get cured once you return to home base? (They did in DA2). I wonder if this is a sideways effort to get us to visit home bases more often and craft more potions and use healing powers more. It also means we will have to be careful going from one battle to the next too quickly. Meh...not sure I like this idea.

Modifié par AutumnWitch, 07 août 2013 - 07:31 .

[I Like Cats And]

Another step in the right direction by Bioware. I intend to drink all the casual baby tears.

[esper]

I Like Cats And wrote...

Another step in the right direction by Bioware. I intend to drink all the casual baby tears.

Should I call your kind elitist?

(And I am by no mean a 'casual' gamer in an form anyway.)

[Am1vf]

esper wrote...

Am1_vf wrote...

Esper, what exactly do you want combat to be? Carelessly moving forward crushing enemies?

Fun.

That's specific <_<

[esper]

Am1_vf wrote...

esper wrote...

Am1_vf wrote...

Esper, what exactly do you want combat to be? Carelessly moving forward crushing enemies?

Fun.

That's specific <_<

But it is exact.

[AlanC9]

Filament wrote...

But you can afford to be a lot more lax in your attitude toward taking damage with auto regen. As long as your HP doesn't reach 0, there is 0 consequence. Without regen, every HP lost has the consequence of resources, or greater risk in the following fights. So it's a lot more important to avoid taking damage.

Does this actually matter in practice? Getting close to zero making getting to zero more probable, so it's still something to be avoided. Unless the current fight is so trivial that you can't get someone injured no matter what you do, in which case the player isn't going to care sbout his tactics much  anyway.

Modifié par AlanC9, 07 août 2013 - 07:40 .

[esper]

AlanC9 wrote...

Filament wrote...

But you can afford to be a lot more lax in your attitude toward taking damage with auto regen. As long as your HP doesn't reach 0, there is 0 consequence. Without regen, every HP lost has the consequence of resources, or greater risk in the following fights. So it's a lot more important to avoid taking damage.

Does this actually matter in practice? Getting close to zero making getting to zero more probable, so it's still something to be avoided. Unless the current fight is so trivial that you can't get someone injured no matter what you do, in which case the player isn't going to care sbout his tactics much  anyway.

And it is not like dragon age combat so far has been designed to avoid damage. After all we only have kiting, not actually dodging which means you basically have to be able to take damage.

(And I don't want actual dodging because then we are moving towards action combat).

[Am1vf]

esper wrote...

Am1_vf wrote...

esper wrote...

Am1_vf wrote...

Esper, what exactly do you want combat to be? Carelessly moving forward crushing enemies?

Fun.

That's specific <_<

But it is exact.

But what does it mean? There are many ways to have fun, for diferent people. Some like planning and being carefull, others just want to see things explode. Which one are you?

[GameHunter]

esper wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

I see no issue with a system that emphasizes trial and error, especially when the difficulty can be reduced for non combat orientated players. I welcome no auto regen, and auto leveling as it reminds me of the older RPGs.

That would be fine if the areas relatively smal. So no healt regen basically just meant increasing difficulty for fights, but no time would you find yourself in an unwinnable situation.

But since they strech the whole 'Large areas', Large areas. LARGE AREAS thing so much. I am going to assume that the areas are going to be large, which mean that some good challinging fights, with a smart enemy ai, means back tracking or reloading to older saves because you suddenly find yourself out of resources.

Trial and error for a single fight is fine. Travel and error for an large area is not.

Pro tip don't get hit .(joke)

People get too clenched about we have to backtrack because of hp.
 
Why we have to buy potions ,why we have to strategize?on harder difficulty settings.

Big maps and big amount of healing items you stocked up for crusade. It could work
that way you fighting and traveling burn up your stock slowly I cant see scenario of actually
blowing all items rapidly.

As it was stated you can encounter something that will own you and you have to
backtrack to different direction a bit to not get owned and take other turn on the path.

If they accounted this idea fully. To not make you load at all there probably will be  possibility
to just run away from it asap by turning around running like you never did before.

Or auto save will happen before approaching encounter  

[esper]

Am1_vf wrote...

esper wrote...

Am1_vf wrote...

esper wrote...

Am1_vf wrote...

Esper, what exactly do you want combat to be? Carelessly moving forward crushing enemies?

Fun.

That's specific <_<

But it is exact.

But what does it mean? There are many ways to have fun, for diferent people. Some like planning and being carefull, others just want to see things explode. Which one are you?

I like carefull combat and good planning. No health regen means backtracking to base from the middle off nowhere if an area proves to have actual challing fights, or having 999 potions with you in which case you might as well have healt regen.

The alternertive to backtracking when there are no health regen are combats encounter which can be a 100 percent predicted which is absoluty boring and just watching thing explode less fast in my opinion.