1109 réponses à ce sujet

[The Hierophant]

esper wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

I see no issue with a system that emphasizes trial and error, especially when the difficulty can be reduced for non combat orientated players. I welcome no auto regen, and auto leveling as it reminds me of the older RPGs.

That would be fine if the areas relatively smal. So no healt regen basically just meant increasing difficulty for fights, but no time would you find yourself in an unwinnable situation.

But since they strech the whole 'Large areas', Large areas. LARGE AREAS thing so much. I am going to assume that the areas are going to be large, which mean that some good challinging fights, with a smart enemy ai, means back tracking or reloading to older saves because you suddenly find yourself out of resources.

Trial and error for a single fight is fine. Travel and error for an large area is not.

It just means you'll have to ration your potions wisely, choose your fights wisely, or fast travel back to the Inquisitor's base. Plus it's probable that there's still health regen effects for gear. The only potential flaw i can imagine would be the exclusion of a fast travel feature, but that's highly doubtful.

[esper]

GameHunter wrote...

esper wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

I see no issue with a system that emphasizes trial and error, especially when the difficulty can be reduced for non combat orientated players. I welcome no auto regen, and auto leveling as it reminds me of the older RPGs.

That would be fine if the areas relatively smal. So no healt regen basically just meant increasing difficulty for fights, but no time would you find yourself in an unwinnable situation.

But since they strech the whole 'Large areas', Large areas. LARGE AREAS thing so much. I am going to assume that the areas are going to be large, which mean that some good challinging fights, with a smart enemy ai, means back tracking or reloading to older saves because you suddenly find yourself out of resources.

Trial and error for a single fight is fine. Travel and error for an large area is not.

Pro tip don't get hit .(joke)

People get too clenched about we have to backtrack because of hp.
 
Why we have to buy potions ,why we have to strategize?on harder difficulty settings.

Big maps and big amount of healing items you stocked up for crusade. It could work
that way you fighting and traveling burn up your stock slowly I cant see scenario of actually
blowing all items rapidly.

As it was stated you can encounter something that will own you and you have to
backtrack to different direction a bit to not get owned and take other turn on the path.

If they accounted this idea fully. To not make you load at all there probably will be  possibility
to just run away from it asap by turning around running like you never did before.

Or auto save will happen before approaching encounter  

Pro-tip not being hit not possible unless we turn to action combat. Else we will get hit. You say see us actually vlowing all items rapidly. But that would mean that the combat will either be incredible easy so there is no need or action oritented so player skills can ensure a no hit scenario.

And running away to restock is backtracking. An autosave can possible mean unwinnable file. (Or at least being forced to lower difficulty)

[AlanC9]

esper wrote...

And it is not like dragon age combat so far has been designed to avoid damage. After all we only have kiting, not actually dodging which means you basically have to be able to take damage.

(And I don't want actual dodging because then we are moving towards action combat).

This makes me wonder how the game's going to manage threat. Tanking only works if you don't mind the tank getting hit some ( Force Field exploit excepted).

Modifié par AlanC9, 07 août 2013 - 07:54 .

[esper]

The Hierophant wrote...

esper wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

I see no issue with a system that emphasizes trial and error, especially when the difficulty can be reduced for non combat orientated players. I welcome no auto regen, and auto leveling as it reminds me of the older RPGs.

That would be fine if the areas relatively smal. So no healt regen basically just meant increasing difficulty for fights, but no time would you find yourself in an unwinnable situation.

But since they strech the whole 'Large areas', Large areas. LARGE AREAS thing so much. I am going to assume that the areas are going to be large, which mean that some good challinging fights, with a smart enemy ai, means back tracking or reloading to older saves because you suddenly find yourself out of resources.

Trial and error for a single fight is fine. Travel and error for an large area is not.

It just means you'll have to ration your potions wisely, choose your fights wisely, or fast travel back to the Inquisitor's base. Plus it's probable that there's still health regen effects for gear. The only potential flaw i can imagine would be the exclusion of a fast travel feature, but that's highly doubtful.

You are assuming fast travel. I am not. Because this is still not an open world. And even if fast travel back to base was possible you would still have to back track the way from base to the place where you fast traveled from. Which is tedious.

And ration your potion wisely is fine in relatively small areas. with preditable But I don't want preditable enemy encounters. I want some enemies even in large areas to be able to surprise and force me to think about the fight. I espically wants enemies in large areas to be varied and unpredictable else those large areas are going to be boring and tedious.

[Fast Jimmy]

I like carefull combat and good planning. No health regen means backtracking to base from the middle off nowhere if an area proves to have actual challing fights, or having 999 potions with you in which case you might as well have healt regen.

The alternertive to backtracking when there are no health regen are combats encounter which can be a 100 percent predicted which is absoluty boring and just watching thing explode less fast in my opinion.

This is a very binary way of looking at things. When the reality can be so much more dynamic.

To take the potions bag concept... what if you had five potions in your "potion belt," while you had the rest in your inventory? Using potions in your belt could be instantaneous, but if you run out of those, you could pull one of the 994 remaining out of your inventory... after a time penalty (like how DA:O had casting times). This way, using more than a handful of potions at once could put you at a disadvantage as you scramble around.

Or say you can use potions to heal, but it gives you a -1% chance to hit with each one you take in a given dungeon? You can potion chug with your 999 potions, but if you do it too much, you will be like a drunk prom date trying to swing at a piñata.

Point being, you are seeing the way games have implemented this before that you didn't like and instantly assuming it will be exactly like that. When we don't really know enough about anything to say whether that will be a risk.

You can say "I can see this being a problem if..." but saying the game will be terrible because of something you know nothing about is premature to the extreme.

If you don't like what has been suggested, maybe try and think of a way Bioware can create the system that won't be so boring to you?

[esper]

AlanC9 wrote...

esper wrote...

And it is not like dragon age combat so far has been designed to avoid damage. After all we only have kiting, not actually dodging which means you basically have to be able to take damage.

(And I don't want actual dodging because then we are moving towards action combat).

This makes me wonder how the game's going to manage threat. Tanking only works if you don't mind the tank getting hit some ( Force Field exploit excepted).

Yeah. I am beginning to fear that it not just mean backtracking, but also less flexibillity in party set up since it would suddenly require at least one mage as a healer and one warrior as a tank. But this is the worst case scenario.

That or rouges which can dogde by character skills becomes the only viable party. Again really a worst case scenario.

[AlanC9]

The Hierophant wrote...

It just means you'll have to ration your potions wisely, choose your fights wisely, or fast travel back to the Inquisitor's base. Plus it's probable that there's still health regen effects for gear. The only potential flaw i can imagine would be the exclusion of a fast travel feature, but that's highly doubtful.

The italed works if the player has the initiative and there are no particular time constraints. So some plots won't work well anymore. OTOH, fake urgency is something Bio knows how to do.

Wouldn't health regen items be tantamount to abolishing the system? Though I suppose without mana regen health regen on its own won't be all that useful.

[AlanC9]

Filament wrote...

It absolutely matters. Yes, it's a broad goal to avoid damage either way, but it's not as important if you automatically heal after every battle. I'm surprised the difference in degree is not really self-evident, here.

Just imagine the reaver abilities that work better specifically if you push into low health territory, or the berserker ability that drains all your stamina at once. With auto-regen it's still a significant risk in any individual fight to use those abilities, but it's a much greater risk if you push yourself to low health or use all your stamina, if they stay that way even after combat is concluded. In a way it might be more convenient for the reaver, but more dangerous too. For berserker it would almost be completely impractical, outside of stamina drought boss killing, or a mechanic where berserker rage builds stamina specifically during combat only.

I just wouldn't ever use those abilities, then. Outside of that I wouldn't play any differenly, regen or no.

Modifié par AlanC9, 07 août 2013 - 08:07 .

[esper]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I like carefull combat and good planning. No health regen means backtracking to base from the middle off nowhere if an area proves to have actual challing fights, or having 999 potions with you in which case you might as well have healt regen.

The alternertive to backtracking when there are no health regen are combats encounter which can be a 100 percent predicted which is absoluty boring and just watching thing explode less fast in my opinion.

This is a very binary way of looking at things. When the reality can be so much more dynamic.

To take the potions bag concept... what if you had five potions in your "potion belt," while you had the rest in your inventory? Using potions in your belt could be instantaneous, but if you run out of those, you could pull one of the 994 remaining out of your inventory... after a time penalty (like how DA:O had casting times). This way, using more than a handful of potions at once could put you at a disadvantage as you scramble around.

Or say you can use potions to heal, but it gives you a -1% chance to hit with each one you take in a given dungeon? You can potion chug with your 999 potions, but if you do it too much, you will be like a drunk prom date trying to swing at a piñata.

Point being, you are seeing the way games have implemented this before that you didn't like and instantly assuming it will be exactly like that. When we don't really know enough about anything to say whether that will be a risk.

You can say "I can see this being a problem if..." but saying the game will be terrible because of something you know nothing about is premature to the extreme.

If you don't like what has been suggested, maybe try and think of a way Bioware can create the system that won't be so boring to you?

Because neither of those things are fun either?

The wait untill certain times has passed have the exactly the same problem as backtracking - waste of real life time and is boring. And the second one relies on pure luck. Somethings I hate, really, really hate.

I simply cannot think of a way, because I have yet to see a game without healt regen that either makes healing so easy that it might as well have health regen from a planning view or make it tedious and likely that the game never gets playthrough even once.

The health regen + penalty to max health worked fine for me. In fact it was one of the better solution I have seen to the problem for a while.

[abnocte]

Ziggeh wrote...

*snip*

Say you had 10 potions and they can heal or regen mana/stamina. You can only carry 10 and once you're in a dungeon, you can't go back for more. You can use these potions to restore your broken party, but at the cost of losing a safety net in the upcoming battles.

Just "potions", I'm not keen on at all, as gold value as a penalty is really abstract making such choices not all that meaningful.

Crafting?
Both DA:O and DA2 allowed us to create potions if we had the ingredients.

As I see it, no health regen means that having someone in your party with the herbalism becomes meaningful, thats better than picking herbalism because I have skill points I have to put somewhere.


Also Baldur's Gate, IcewindDale, Planscape:Torment and other games didn't implement health regen ( The Nameless One not withstanding ) and were perfectly playable.

[Taleroth]

esper wrote...

Yeah. I am beginning to fear that it not just mean backtracking, but also less flexibillity in party set up since it would suddenly require at least one mage as a healer and one warrior as a tank. But this is the worst case scenario.

Your worst case scenario sounds like the same scenario the franchise has been under since DAO, unless you used bugged abilities or played a particularly easy difficulty.

Modifié par Taleroth, 07 août 2013 - 08:08 .

[aries1001]

I'm in favor of health regeneration, if it is done in a similar way like it was in DA2. After a battle, everyone regains their health and mana and stamina. The reason is this: I quickly became tired in say Icewind Dale 2 (which I'm currently playing) to rest my party for say 16 hours to get full my characters' full health back.

I also quickly became tired of the vancian casting system, please see here: http://www.giantitp....ead.php?t=70761

The reason is this:

I prepared myself for a fight against one type of enemies, then when I moved on, it was suddenly another typer of enemies. Some enemies were resistant to cold damage, other enemies were resistant to fire damage (like the Eefreeti). And at least once in BG2 and in ICWD2 I had to cheat to defeat a certain dragon (not the same dragon, though). Not fun at all. And in DA2 (as I said at the time as well): Bioware seems to like the combat to go this way: normal normal normal combat untill the end level boss at the end (level 1 i.e.) - Rock Monster from DA2's Deep Roads comes to mind here. Ridiculously hard to defeat for at first level monster, Corypheus from DA2's Legacy DLC should be hard to defeat since he is like the end boss of the whole game/dlc.

As for healt regen: I would be somewhat disturbed if it was done like in NWN2 where we rested for like 30 seconds and all health were restored; this doesn't make any sense. In BG1 and in BG2 as well as in the Icewind Dale games, you could rest at inns etc. and also outside with the risk of enemies attacking you. However, as I said, it meant that I rested quite a lot. (and a lot of time went by).

[esper]

abnocte wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

*snip*

Say you had 10 potions and they can heal or regen mana/stamina. You can only carry 10 and once you're in a dungeon, you can't go back for more. You can use these potions to restore your broken party, but at the cost of losing a safety net in the upcoming battles.

Just "potions", I'm not keen on at all, as gold value as a penalty is really abstract making such choices not all that meaningful.

Crafting?
Both DA:O and DA2 allowed us to create potions if we had the ingredients.

As I see it, no health regen means that having someone in your party with the herbalism becomes meaningful, thats better than picking herbalism because I have skill points I have to put somewhere.


Also Baldur's Gate, IcewindDale, Planscape:Torment and other games didn't implement health regen ( The Nameless One not withstanding ) and were perfectly playable.

All games I never completed because after x-amount of time it was simply boring.

(It also didn't help that there was no explanation of d&d rules for those of us not raised with them, in the versions I got.)

[GameHunter]

esper wrote...

GameHunter wrote...

esper wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

I see no issue with a system that emphasizes trial and error, especially when the difficulty can be reduced for non combat orientated players. I welcome no auto regen, and auto leveling as it reminds me of the older RPGs.

That would be fine if the areas relatively smal. So no healt regen basically just meant increasing difficulty for fights, but no time would you find yourself in an unwinnable situation.

But since they strech the whole 'Large areas', Large areas. LARGE AREAS thing so much. I am going to assume that the areas are going to be large, which mean that some good challinging fights, with a smart enemy ai, means back tracking or reloading to older saves because you suddenly find yourself out of resources.

Trial and error for a single fight is fine. Travel and error for an large area is not.

Pro tip don't get hit .(joke)

People get too clenched about we have to backtrack because of hp.
 
Why we have to buy potions ,why we have to strategize?on harder difficulty settings.

Big maps and big amount of healing items you stocked up for crusade. It could work
that way you fighting and traveling burn up your stock slowly I cant see scenario of actually
blowing all items rapidly.

As it was stated you can encounter something that will own you and you have to
backtrack to different direction a bit to not get owned and take other turn on the path.

If they accounted this idea fully. To not make you load at all there probably will be  possibility
to just run away from it asap by turning around running like you never did before.

Or auto save will happen before approaching encounter  

Pro-tip not being hit not possible unless we turn to action combat. Else we will get hit. You say see us actually vlowing all items rapidly. But that would mean that the combat will either be incredible easy so there is no need or action oritented so player skills can ensure a no hit scenario.

And running away to restock is backtracking. An autosave can possible mean unwinnable file. (Or at least being forced to lower difficulty)

And misconception of restocking so I rephrase you can have 99 of all and get owned still buy some
things if they are  stronger than you at that moment. 
Before means before you actually trigger enemies.

EGZ  First area you took all right turns and came to  secret area with biggest meanest
beast as tall as small house but hadn't had  lvl up yet and a) you ran away before getting wooped
entirely you got wooped  c) you decided to not even risk it try at this point and time

[Wulfram]

AlanC9 wrote...

This makes me wonder how the game's going to manage threat. Tanking only works if you don't mind the tank getting hit some ( Force Field exploit excepted).

I don't think it changes things all that much for tanks.  As long as you're better off having the tank be hit than someone else, it works fine.

So if the tank works by mitigation, then they've got a very big role - you'd surely rather the heavily armoured fighter takes 25 damage than that the robe wearing mage takes 50.  And even if the tank is simply a big ball of hitpoints, they can still make sense if healing spells/items are percentage based.

(this post written under the highly unlikely assumption of an actual no regen system, not a tedium based regen system)

[esper]

Taleroth wrote...

esper wrote...

Yeah. I am beginning to fear that it not just mean backtracking, but also less flexibillity in party set up since it would suddenly require at least one mage as a healer and one warrior as a tank. But this is the worst case scenario.

Your worst case scenario sounds like the same scenario the franchise has been under since DAO, unless you used bugged abilities or played a particularly easy difficulty.

Nope. Playing on nightmare.

Da2 team, less then optimal made blood mage Hawke (by less optimal I mean no using sacrifice, which make healing hard for her), Anders, Merrill and either Sebastian and Varric. Basically all ranged. Yes, it was difficult, but fun.

Da:o team... Here I accidentally ran into an overpowered warden on my first try. But as far as I have heard on the boards three mages + rouge was perfectly viable. the same with two rouges + two mages.

[esper]

GameHunter wrote...

esper wrote...

GameHunter wrote...

esper wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

I see no issue with a system that emphasizes trial and error, especially when the difficulty can be reduced for non combat orientated players. I welcome no auto regen, and auto leveling as it reminds me of the older RPGs.

That would be fine if the areas relatively smal. So no healt regen basically just meant increasing difficulty for fights, but no time would you find yourself in an unwinnable situation.

But since they strech the whole 'Large areas', Large areas. LARGE AREAS thing so much. I am going to assume that the areas are going to be large, which mean that some good challinging fights, with a smart enemy ai, means back tracking or reloading to older saves because you suddenly find yourself out of resources.

Trial and error for a single fight is fine. Travel and error for an large area is not.

Pro tip don't get hit .(joke)

People get too clenched about we have to backtrack because of hp.
 
Why we have to buy potions ,why we have to strategize?on harder difficulty settings.

Big maps and big amount of healing items you stocked up for crusade. It could work
that way you fighting and traveling burn up your stock slowly I cant see scenario of actually
blowing all items rapidly.

As it was stated you can encounter something that will own you and you have to
backtrack to different direction a bit to not get owned and take other turn on the path.

If they accounted this idea fully. To not make you load at all there probably will be  possibility
to just run away from it asap by turning around running like you never did before.

Or auto save will happen before approaching encounter  

Pro-tip not being hit not possible unless we turn to action combat. Else we will get hit. You say see us actually vlowing all items rapidly. But that would mean that the combat will either be incredible easy so there is no need or action oritented so player skills can ensure a no hit scenario.

And running away to restock is backtracking. An autosave can possible mean unwinnable file. (Or at least being forced to lower difficulty)

And misconception of restocking so I rephrase you can have 99 of all and get owned still buy some
things if they are  stronger than you at that moment. 
Before means before you actually trigger enemies.

EGZ  First area you took all right turns and came to  secret area with biggest meanest
beast as tall as small house but hadn't had  lvl up yet and a) you ran away before getting wooped
entirely you got wooped  c) you decided to not even risk it try at this point and time

That is an entirely different problem. One I have with no level scaling. But I don't think we should confuse these two here.

I am talking about the encounters we have to get through to completele the area. The mandatory ones. And there will be a lot of these. It is a bioware game.

[Taleroth]

You're thinking there's less flexibility because you managed three mage parties. That's a pretty specific setup that gets by because of the overpowered nature of mages. Not because of flexible design.

Modifié par Taleroth, 07 août 2013 - 08:17 .

[Wulfram]

abnocte wrote...

Also Baldur's Gate, IcewindDale, Planscape:Torment and other games didn't implement health regen ( The Nameless One not withstanding ) and were perfectly playable.

BG was effectively thinly veiled health regen after combat, since it was distinctly liberal about resting opportunities.  This kept the additional tedium down, but it was still extra tedium for no real gain.

[esper]

Taleroth wrote...

You're thinking there's less flexibility because you managed three mage parties. That's a pretty specific setup.

That is just my canon team. And again, my Hawke was absolutely not overpowered since I only picked one specalization. In fact she was a blood mage specialzing in the entropy tree. So I couldn't even spam area attacks.

I also managed two rouges + two warriors once. (I wanted to see if I could without a healer).

I also managed three rouges + one mage

Heck I even have a three warriors + one mage scenerio. Though I do admit to stopping in act 3 wiht that Hawke, but that is mostly because warrior always have been a boring class for me.

and two rouge + two mage.

I am guessing all other combinations are doable also as long as you are patient enough to learn it.

That is not the case if you are forced to have an tank and a healer in the party simply to get through an area without having to backtrack.

[EvilChani]

karushna5 wrote...

Some people can't do that strategy. My roommate frowned every time I mention the stegedy angle, she finished Dragon Age Origins so much she knew it practically by heart and could do a complete play through regularly over a weekend. So when I say fan of the series understand she defends DAII to the teeth because she adores the games. Is she at all interested in stategy, or when to do this at such and such time and planning ahead, no. She just isn't that gamer. I do a bit of strategy, but if it requires strategy to play, then that is making it too difficult to just play. She would hate it, I would find it very UN fun. I can think ahead, but most of the time I just like killing things, and the amount they are mentioning DOES make the game harder, not having health regen makes it harder, and for those things to be added makes it insanely difficult  

I agree with this. My niece hates any game that requires more than going through and pushing buttons a few times, and doesn't enjoy the more challenging battles, so if being forced to use 'strategic play' is part of DA:I, then she won't buy it and won't like it. 

With me, it's a little different. I loved ME1 and thought it was rip-roaring fun to have one of my Shepard's run up and shoot enemies in the face with a sniper rifle (with explosive ammo) so I could watch their heads explode and take out a couple of people with them to boot. I played on insanity just so I could get the achievement (I'm a completionist that way with games that I like) and though it was annoying, I got through it. Then, along comes ME2 with their "you must use strategy" crap in battles...

I found it so annoying that I was constantly cursing and throwing the remote across the room (especially when having to fight that damned Krogan when you rescue Garrus). It never dawned on me WHY it was so annoying until my nephew came over and was watching me play on insanity. My nephew: "Crap!! No wonder you're dying all the time! What do you think the great big crates are for??"  Me: "They're in my damned way."  Him: "They're cover, dope, get behind them!" Yes, I played ME1 without ever using cover, even on insaniy. Yes, I played ME2 on casual without ever using cover. And I made it to the Garrus rescue without ever using cover. After that (being reprimanded by my nephew while playing the game shamed me into using the stupid cover), I used cover. The game became much easier, despite Miranda hopping up on the crates like she thought she was John Wayne and then being dropped like a hooker that got kicked in the stomach two seconds later. Though insanity was still annoying and stressful, I got through it. And I used those "tactics" when I went back to a normal level of play. The game was a blast, and in ME3 (despite my hatred of the crap story it revolved around) I didn't find the difficulty to be too bad. 

My point is that, if by "tactics" in DA:I, they mean that you can't run by yourself into a pack of Ogres like an escaped mental patient and hack every enemy apart without having to think a little bit, then I can deal with it. If, however, it means you have to be a three star general and know more than Sun Tzu's tactics (which are just common sense), then I will probably smash the disk to bits and let my parents' dog take a dump on it before mailing it to Bioware...provided I actually end up buying the game, anyway. 

 Edit: as long as their is a narrative mode, I am happy, but some people seem to mind if other people have easy games which makes me wonder 

I am right there with you. These elitist snobs who whine and moan about other players being able to complete a game without wanting to tear out their hair in frustrations make me want to get them alone in a room with a hot firepoker. They were the reason we went from unlimited ammo in ME1 to being forced to run around looking for freaking heat sinks in ME2. They were the reason ME3 was even more difficult than the other two. If they are so masochistic that they enjoy being tortured in their entertainment, they can put freaking potato chip clips on their nipples and have a hooker beat them while they play the game. But let the game have a level so that the rest of us can get through it without smashing our equipment in irritation. 

[Taleroth]

esper wrote...

That is not the case if you are forced to have an tank and a healer in the party simply to get through an area without having to backtrack.

Backtracking is no different from having to "learn it" like you said.

You found a cheese strategy to make it work.