1109 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

esper wrote...

That is not the case if you are forced to have an tank and a healer in the party simply to get through an area without having to backtrack.

I don't think that's really connected to health regen.  Well, mana regen + no health regen would make healer a near necessity, but otherwise if they can balance the game to allow a varied party with health regen then they can do the same without.

[AlanC9]

Filament wrote...

Outside of that, it would still be different. To your previous example about trash mobs, the thing is that the definition of trash mob is also very much different without regen. If the enemy can damage you at all, they are a risk. A fight would have to be a lot more imbalanced in your favor for it to be "trivial" without regen. Properly implemented, there would be zero trivial fights.

I've never seen a game actually do this "proper implementation" of which you speak.

Though some implementations are worse than others. My favorite bad one was ToEE's Temple random encounters recharging your health potion supply since bugbears often had a couple.

[AlanC9]

Wulfram wrote...

I don't think that's really connected to health regen.  Well, mana regen + no health regen would make healer a near necessity, but otherwise if they can balance the game to allow a varied party with health regen then they can do the same without.

I think we're all assuming that either there won't be mana regen or there won't be healing the way we have it now -- if mana and health are fungible and mana regnerates, the system is worthless.

Modifié par AlanC9, 07 août 2013 - 08:39 .

[esper]

Taleroth wrote...

esper wrote...

That is not the case if you are forced to have an tank and a healer in the party simply to get through an area without having to backtrack.

Backtracking is no different from having to "learn it" like you said.

You found a cheese strategy to make it work.

Erm... no every fight is difficult with my canon team. But it never end in unwinnable. Perhaps I would agree with you if this wasn't a role playing game, but as it is there will be companions that my pc will not get along with and I hate to have my roleplay restricted by game mechnanics. Espically in something essential like this. It is already bad enough I have to back track with a rouge in da2 and in da:o.

Without health regen I would in fact I demand since their areas is suppossed to be oh-so-large- that I could teorectically end up in a situation in which every companion have 1 hp and 1 mana. In which case I have to back track to the camp to continue playing.

And if the fights are not interesting and or diffucult enough that I in my first playthrough can avoid ending there (or something similar), the battle system is simply not challing enough or have potion spamming to the degree that it might as well be health regen.

[abnocte]

Wulfram wrote...

abnocte wrote...

Also Baldur's Gate, IcewindDale, Planscape:Torment and other games didn't implement health regen ( The Nameless One not withstanding ) and were perfectly playable.

BG was effectively thinly veiled health regen after combat, since it was distinctly liberal about resting opportunities.  This kept the additional tedium down, but it was still extra tedium for no real gain.

The gain for me is that the world where the game takes place becomes more believable if my party has to rest or use health spells/health kits/health potions to recover from a battle. 
But thats my opinion of course.


Anyway I don't remember BG being more liberal than Planscape:Torment or IcewindDale about resting... 

[esper]

Wulfram wrote...

esper wrote...

That is not the case if you are forced to have an tank and a healer in the party simply to get through an area without having to backtrack.

I don't think that's really connected to health regen.  Well, mana regen + no health regen would make healer a near necessity, but otherwise if they can balance the game to allow a varied party with health regen then they can do the same without.

It is if the only way to manage the resources would be to have a tank to absorb damage and a healer to back up the tank. Remeber that completely avoiding damage likely will not be possible, and the areas are suppossed to be large.

You simply won't have enough resources without these two (But again. I did say worst case scenerio. I am hoping the situation would not be so bleak even without health regen).

[Wulfram]

esper wrote...

It is if the only way to manage the resources would be to have a tank to absorb damage and a healer to back up the tank. Remeber that completely avoiding damage likely will not be possible, and the areas are suppossed to be large.

You simply won't have enough resources without these two (But again. I did say worst case scenerio. I am hoping the situation would not be so bleak even without health regen).

Well, the reason why a no tank party works in the previous games is that killing stuff fast is a very good method of damage mitigation too, as are the various disabling spells and abilities.  Ultimately the game is always going to be about getting the best ratio of net player damage to net enemy damage, whichever you go with.  All no regen does stretch things out so that applies over a bunch of combat encounters rather than one.

[The Hierophant]

esper wrote...

You are assuming fast travel. I am not. Because this is still not an open world. And even if fast travel back to base was possible you would still have to back track the way from base to the place where you fast traveled from. Which is tedious.

And ration your potion wisely is fine in relatively small areas. with preditable But I don't want preditable enemy encounters. I want some enemies even in large areas to be able to surprise and force me to think about the fight. I espically wants enemies in large areas to be varied and unpredictable else those large areas are going to be boring and tedious.

in both DA games you could fast travel to, and from locations. Then there's FO, and TES as examples too.

Rationing is the result of enemy difficulty so I don't see how having to carefully use your potions would reduce enemy AI, and placement in a system where the player has access multiple avenues of healing. 

Plus all the op mentions is that there is no auto healing after enemy encounters like a multitude of other open world games or RPGs. From the grievances I'd think there's no potion stockpiling, healing magic, or enchanted gear to counter the exclusion of auto regen.

[esper]

Wulfram wrote...

esper wrote...

It is if the only way to manage the resources would be to have a tank to absorb damage and a healer to back up the tank. Remeber that completely avoiding damage likely will not be possible, and the areas are suppossed to be large.

You simply won't have enough resources without these two (But again. I did say worst case scenerio. I am hoping the situation would not be so bleak even without health regen).

Well, the reason why a no tank party works in the previous games is that killing stuff fast is a very good method of damage mitigation too, as are the various disabling spells and abilities.  Ultimately the game is always going to be about getting the best ratio of net player damage to net enemy damage, whichever you go with.  All no regen does stretch things out so that applies over a bunch of combat encounters rather than one.

Yeah, but then you are sorta one shot enemies. That is not... really fun. But as said. It is the worst case scenerio of an indirect consequence. I don't think it will go so far, but the possibility is in the system.

[esper]

The Hierophant wrote...

esper wrote...

You are assuming fast travel. I am not. Because this is still not an open world. And even if fast travel back to base was possible you would still have to back track the way from base to the place where you fast traveled from. Which is tedious.

And ration your potion wisely is fine in relatively small areas. with preditable But I don't want preditable enemy encounters. I want some enemies even in large areas to be able to surprise and force me to think about the fight. I espically wants enemies in large areas to be varied and unpredictable else those large areas are going to be boring and tedious.

in both DA games you could fast travel to, and from locations. Then there's FO, and TES as examples too.

Rationing is the result of enemy difficulty so I don't see how having to carefully use your potions would reduce enemy AI, and placement in a system where the player has access multiple avenues of healing. 

Plus all the op mentions is that there is no auto healing after enemy encounters like a multitude of other open world games or RPGs. From the grievances I'd think there's no potion stockpiling, healing magic, or enchanted gear to counter the exclusion of auto regen.

FO and TES are more open worlds than I hope that da will ever be.

And you didn't not fast travel to locations. You fast traveled to hubs. But you could alway only enter these area from one or two entry points.

Some of these hubs had sub-hubs. It would be like instead of the Deep Roads having several areas map it is now one large area and if you ran out of potions and healing just before the anvil you would have to after the healing in the camp. Start to work you way back to the anvil all the way from Orzommar. That means yes, going through all those areas once more. That would just be boring.

[Fast Jimmy]

I'm curious to see how this will affect Blood Magic, as others have pointed out. If health is a premium, then Blood Magic will become even slightly more adverse to the player than before.

Then again, if they beef it up to make it truly powerful - even more powerful than you could make blood mage Merril with a high constitution and the best gear - then that might be something to see.

[esper]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I'm curious to see how this will affect Blood Magic, as others have pointed out. If health is a premium, then Blood Magic will become even slightly more adverse to the player than before.

Then again, if they beef it up to make it truly powerful - even more powerful than you could make blood mage Merril with a high constitution and the best gear - then that might be something to see.

I wouldn't mind blood magic becoming more diffucult to use for the exchange of it becoming truely powerfull. That is actually one of the few good thing I can see in the system. (It not big enough to make me want it, but it is at least a little thing).

[Sjpelke]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I'm curious to see how this will affect Blood Magic, as others have pointed out. If health is a premium, then Blood Magic will become even slightly more adverse to the player than before.

Then again, if they beef it up to make it truly powerful - even more powerful than you could make blood mage Merril with a high constitution and the best gear - then that might be something to see.

If there will be 'handicaps' involved that have a real impact if you chose to go down the blood mage path BUT that would give access to a really powerfull spell I would definitily go for that.

[Olmerto]

*Some people* are assuming that all combat dynamics will remain identical with DA2 and that BW is just removing regenerating health from that equation. That is an invalid assumption and *these people* should have a little more confidence that Bio will design a game that is fun regardless of the precise mechanics. This chicken little attitude about virtually everything new that comes out is appalling. Have some faith in them.

[kinderschlager]

so i need to spam create potions like in DA:O? got it

[Nightdragon8]

are we talking about 0 heath regen when out of combat? cause if thats the case, its going to be more of a survival game than anything else.

[Fast Jimmy]

Olmert wrote...

*Some people* are assuming that all combat dynamics will remain identical with DA2 and that BW is just removing regenerating health from that equation. That is an invalid assumption and *these people* should have a little more confidence that Bio will design a game that is fun regardless of the precise mechanics. This chicken little attitude about virtually everything new that comes out is appalling. Have some faith in them.

While I won't say "have faith in Bioware," I will say that this is, in my opinion, only one piece of the puzzle. Laidlaw has stated that making the combat experience as prime a point as it can be for DA:I is one of his main goals, so I would think a system with something as one-dimensional as "hanging around until you heal" or "chug lots of potions" won't be solutions that fit into the overarching structure. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 07 août 2013 - 09:21 .

[Foxhound2121]

AlanC9 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I don't think that's really connected to health regen.  Well, mana regen + no health regen would make healer a near necessity, but otherwise if they can balance the game to allow a varied party with health regen then they can do the same without.

I think we're all assuming that either there won't be mana regen or there won't be healing the way we have it now -- if mana and health are fungible and mana regnerates, the system is worthless.

This means that stamina for rogues and warriors should never be allowed to regenerate either.

Modifié par Foxhound2121, 07 août 2013 - 09:25 .

[BlueMagitek]

Sounds like fun.

[Ziggeh]

Foxhound2121 wrote...

This means that stamina for rogues and warriors should never be allowed to regenerate either.

I actually think it would be more interesting if stamina did. It would create this strange balance between tactical and strategic choices. You could make mages obsurdly powerful, but limited over the course of a series of encounters where rogues and warriors would catch up or overtake.

Though that would mean in shorter fights, say single monster encounters, they'd be fairly overpowered. But still, it would make for some great decisions.

[In Exile]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I'm curious to see how this will affect Blood Magic, as others have pointed out. If health is a premium, then Blood Magic will become even slightly more adverse to the player than before.

Then again, if they beef it up to make it truly powerful - even more powerful than you could make blood mage Merril with a high constitution and the best gear - then that might be something to see.

Alternatively, they might make it a way to health by damaging enemies, and have it have serious story-related consequences. That would be a neat little conundrum for players. 

[Foxhound2121]

Ziggeh wrote...

Foxhound2121 wrote...

This means that stamina for rogues and warriors should never be allowed to regenerate either.

I actually think it would be more interesting if stamina did. It would create this strange balance between tactical and strategic choices. You could make mages obsurdly powerful, but limited over the course of a series of encounters where rogues and warriors would catch up or overtake.

Though that would mean in shorter fights, say single monster encounters, they'd be fairly overpowered. But still, it would make for some great decisions.

That would be unfair to mages as they have double the chance to become a dead slot in a long dungeon crawl.

Also what you saying would likley result in forcing players to bring only one mage in the end.

Sod off basically if you're PC is a mage and you plan on romancing another mage character.

Modifié par Foxhound2121, 07 août 2013 - 10:29 .

[Ziggeh]

Filament wrote...
(Then I guess warriors and rogues would get Jimmy's power bar with little alteration.)

I could get behind that, but I don't think you need the parity provided they balance out over a given period.

That said, it bugs the heck out of me when I have to bring a specific character with me to feel optimal in the combat, so it could lead to problematic decisions like "won't bring my favourite mage because this is a long dungeon".

So yeah, maybe a two tier combat system, one that maybe doesn't even require a resource but is based on cooldowns or something, and then a more long term one that requires management over the course of multiple encounters.