1109 réponses à ce sujet

[CuriousArtemis]

Oh my, hopefully this is only for hard mode; I want to be able to breeze through on easy/story mode without having to worry about dying!! 8D (This is after I complete the game on normal mode, of course, and just want to play the story again).

[Fast Jimmy]

AlanC9 wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
Because if you buy 20 potions, you can't buy that new shiny sword. Or that accessory that makes your spells go BOOM louder. Or give 1 sovereign to that starving veteran in the street.

It will make money an actual factor in the DA games, as opposed to just a number that grows constantly with only four or five things in the game worth actually buying. In my estimation, at least.

The economy probably needs its own thread.

I agree that there's not much point buying any item that isn't top-tier in DA:O unless you're trying to fill out an item set. You still have costs for better recipes and alchemical components ( varies depending on how into traps and whatnot you are). This isn't all that different from any other fantasy game. But there are enough top-tier items to suck out most of the gold by the endgame, IIRC.

Well, I'd say no feature exists in a vacuum. Cut off healing and you need potions and/or inn stays, which (I would assume) cost money. If the goal is true resource/encounter management, then money is a factor. 

I've started a wonderfully awesome economic off-topic discussion (to me, at least) in the Mana Regeration thread. 

And I'd say those items were priced at such high points simply because the devs saw that loot was quite plentiful, so most players wouldn't need to buy much except Skill books, recipes, runes and high tier gear in DA:O. 

Point being, price points are set by the devs. If money turns into a bigger factor and you actually need to buy things other than the top-tier equipment, then I'd imagine the cost of those high-tier goods would fall, otherwise no one would be able to afford them.

[Dave of Canada]

lady_v23 wrote...

I'm not sure I like this. I always plays casual, I love the godlike power.

It's almost impossible to die in Casual difficulty for DA:O/DA2, I wouldn't be surprised if you can still auto-attack and tank hits with your face without problem in DA:I. At the worst case, you might actually have to use abilities.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 08 août 2013 - 07:54 .

[Ziggeh]

abnocte wrote...

It annoys me too. I always end up not buying any gear.

Exactly, and I very much doubt we're alone.

I don't see these things as fat that can be simply removed, I just think there are more interesting ways to achieve the same effect. ME3's gear system springs to mind - that was a set of balances that affected playstyle. It presented an interesting set of choices.

To try and drive this back to the topic, you could have, instead of buying potions as part of an inventory, a set quantity (because you're part of a large organisation) and their impact is dependant on out of combat skills, meaning your consumables system is now asking you to choose between long term and short term effectiveness within your skillset.

[Foxhound2121]

Dragon Age is not Dark Souls. There will be times when you take damage and it's unavoidable, unexpected, and it's RNG. It's not like you can raise shield or strafe to dodge a fireball to avoid damage all together like a pure tactical game.


All this will add to the game is busy work to backtrack and buy potions. I don't really see how anyone thinks that adds further enjoyment. None of this was sorely missed.

The only thing you will miss out with health regen is not having to walk down the same road a dozen times for nothing.

Modifié par Foxhound2121, 08 août 2013 - 08:41 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Foxhound2121 wrote...

Dragon Age is not Dark Souls. There will be times when you take damage and it's unavoidable, unexpected, and it's RNG. It's not like you can raise shield or strafe to dodge a fireball to avoid damage all together like a pure tactical game.


All this will add to the game is busy work to backtrack and buy potions. I don't really see how anyone thinks that adds further enjoyment. None of this was sorely missed.

The only thing you will miss out with health regen is not having to walk down the same road a dozen times for nothing.

I'll say it again - they should make the default difficulty Casual and then prompt the player to increase it if they are doing well. But if you are taking damage and using potions at the lowest difficulty, it won't even ask you about it (with the obvious option to change the difficulty manually through meny always being available as well).

That way, people who want to plower-house through the game without any thought to tactics can do so without them going into the menu and changing the setting to Casual.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 08 août 2013 - 08:57 .

[AlanC9]

Ziggeh wrote...

abnocte wrote...
If I don't need to use money to get things my party needs why implement money at all?

I'd remove it. (But then I'd also remove loot and the inventory).

Consumables should be a finite resource, and that's easier to control without cash. Buying gear is always problematic due to the potential for a replacement to drop from the next thing you hit with it. It just leads to a series of uninformed decisions, and I can't stand those.

Don't replay ME1. I'm in the middle of a trilogy run now, and I'm amazed at how eager I am to get to ME2 where the whole idiotic business goes away. In the time it takes to walk around to shops, you can fly to some UNC world and get a whole bunch of overlapping loot for free that's as good as or better than anything you can afford.

Though ME1 handled consumables just fine.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Ziggeh wrote...

abnocte wrote...

It annoys me too. I always end up not buying any gear.

Exactly, and I very much doubt we're alone.

I don't see how this is a problem, though.

That the gear is available to be purchased has value even if we don't purchase it.  It gives us an opportunity to make an in-character choice, it makes the gameworld a more credible place, and it allows different players to play differently.

Some players might not want to buy gear because that purchase will be invalidated later by a loot drop (it won't actually, but that's a much longer discussion about the nature of choice), but some players might like to spend the money they've earned buying the best things.

Just as dialogue is gameplay, shopping is gameplay, and some players might enjoy it.  We shouldn't be so willing to discard game elements simply because we don't see their value.  That their exclusion wouldn't affect us doesn't mean we can ignore the possible effect on others.

[AlanC9]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
Point being, price points are set by the devs. If money turns into a bigger factor and you actually need to buy things other than the top-tier equipment, then I'd imagine the cost of those high-tier goods would fall, otherwise no one would be able to afford them.

Note that there's positive feedback here -- the worse a player does, the more consumables he'll have to buy and therefore the less well-equipped his party will be, which makes him more likely to keep doing badly. Not a problem in DA:O or BG2 since you can get everything but the top level stuff through gameplay, or in BG1 where the best stuff wasn't in shops in the first place. It could be a problem if the player is actually expected to buy a lot of stuff in shops.

It does make me wonder what the players were supposed to be doing with DA:O shops except unloading loot. Much of the stuff seems to be in there only as window-dressing.

[Pzykozis]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I'll say it again - they should make the default difficulty Casual and then prompt the player to increase it if they are doing well. But if you are taking damage and using potions at the lowest difficulty, it won't even ask you about it (with the obvious option to change the difficulty manually through meny always being available as well).

That way, people who want to plower-house through the game without any thought to tactics can do so without them going into the menu and changing the setting to Casual.

I'm not entirely sure why you continue conflate difficulty/tactics with no regen, strategy perhaps but even then thats reaching. No regen is just different to regen, one focuses on long term attrition the other on tighter hopefully more meaningful single combats. Besides casual difficulty tends to promote being hit in the face repeatedly because only by playing as loose and fast as possible can it even begin to be interesting.

[Sylvius the Mad]

AlanC9 wrote...

It does make me wonder what the players were supposed to be doing with DA:O shops except unloading loot. Much of the stuff seems to be in there only as window-dressing.

It may have been, but that's stil valuable.

Also, it provided scale.  The premium weapons you might actually want to buy cost 100 gp or more.  How much money is that, really?  Seeing that you could buy ordinary weapons for a tine fraction of that gave some indication of the quality or rarity of those premium items.

[Sylvius the Mad]

AlanC9 wrote...

Don't replay ME1. I'm in the middle of a trilogy run now, and I'm amazed at how eager I am to get to ME2 where the whole idiotic business goes away.

In ME1's defense, the level of difficulty in the combat was such that you didn't ever really need to worry about all that loot.  The only real problem with ME's design, in this regard, was that the loot was gathered automatically, when it would have just saved us time if we could have left it behind through inaction.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 08 août 2013 - 09:12 .

[AlanC9]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

abnocte wrote...

It annoys me too. I always end up not buying any gear.

Exactly, and I very much doubt we're alone.

I don't see how this is a problem, though.

That the gear is available to be purchased has value even if we don't purchase it.  It gives us an opportunity to make an in-character choice, it makes the gameworld a more credible place, and it allows different players to play differently.

Some players might not want to buy gear because that purchase will be invalidated later by a loot drop (it won't actually, but that's a much longer discussion about the nature of choice), but some players might like to spend the money they've earned buying the best things.

Just as dialogue is gameplay, shopping is gameplay, and some players might enjoy it.  We shouldn't be so willing to discard game elements simply because we don't see their value.  That their exclusion wouldn't affect us doesn't mean we can ignore the possible effect on others.

Why shouldn't we be willing to discard elements others like?

Sometimes we have to put up with features we dislike, sure. I'm not going to get timed quests because most players can't handle them, for instance. But that just means that someone at Bio balanced things out and I lost.

[Nerevar-as]

Foxhound2121 wrote...

Dragon Age is not Dark Souls. There will be times when you take damage and it's unavoidable, unexpected, and it's RNG. It's not like you can raise shield or strafe to dodge a fireball to avoid damage all together like a pure tactical game.


All this will add to the game is busy work to backtrack and buy potions. I don't really see how anyone thinks that adds further enjoyment. None of this was sorely missed.

The only thing you will miss out with health regen is not having to walk down the same road a dozen times for nothing.

In fact, I do. Combat loses all threat when there´s no price to pay. Get killed? You lose 1 minute at worst. Get beaten to an inch of your life for going unprepared? Doesn´t matter, you recover fully in 1 second. Anything that is even a bit uncomfortable to the player is getting removed, lets not even think of RTFMing (Witcher 2 prologue...). One of the reasons the first Alien vs Predator marine campaign was scary as hell was you couldn´t quicksave, you died, you started all over. Death and hard fights must mean something, or they have no purpose. If you don´t like the feature, play on the easiest difficulty level, which by today´s standards of difficulty will probably amount to push a button and all enemies dropping dead.

[AlanC9]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Don't replay ME1. I'm in the middle of a trilogy run now, and I'm amazed at how eager I am to get to ME2 where the whole idiotic business goes away.

In ME1's defense, the level of difficulty in the combat was such that you didn't ever really need to worry about all that loot.  The only real problem with ME's design, in this regard, was that the loot was gathered automatically, when it would have just saved us time if we could have left it behind through inaction.

That's awfully metagamey, isn't it?

[Foxhound2121]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Foxhound2121 wrote...

Dragon Age is not Dark Souls. There will be times when you take damage and it's unavoidable, unexpected, and it's RNG. It's not like you can raise shield or strafe to dodge a fireball to avoid damage all together like a pure tactical game.


All this will add to the game is busy work to backtrack and buy potions. I don't really see how anyone thinks that adds further enjoyment. None of this was sorely missed.

The only thing you will miss out with health regen is not having to walk down the same road a dozen times for nothing.

I'll say it again - they should make the default difficulty Casual and then prompt the player to increase it if they are doing well. But if you are taking damage and using potions at the lowest difficulty, it won't even ask you about it (with the obvious option to change the difficulty manually through meny always being available as well).

That way, people who want to plower-house through the game without any thought to tactics can do so without them going into the menu and changing the setting to Casual.

I don't see how this is relevant. Why do you have the idea that anyone wants to powerhouse through the game?

[Ziggeh]

AlanC9 wrote...

Don't replay ME1. I'm in the middle of a trilogy run now, and I'm amazed at how eager I am to get to ME2 where the whole idiotic business goes away. In the time it takes to walk around to shops, you can fly to some UNC world and get a whole bunch of overlapping loot for free that's as good as or better than anything you can afford.

I think I cheated my way through a second playthrough, just to avoid that.

[Enigmatick]

Foxhound2121 wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Foxhound2121 wrote...

Dragon Age is not Dark Souls. There will be times when you take damage and it's unavoidable, unexpected, and it's RNG. It's not like you can raise shield or strafe to dodge a fireball to avoid damage all together like a pure tactical game.


All this will add to the game is busy work to backtrack and buy potions. I don't really see how anyone thinks that adds further enjoyment. None of this was sorely missed.

The only thing you will miss out with health regen is not having to walk down the same road a dozen times for nothing.

I'll say it again - they should make the default difficulty Casual and then prompt the player to increase it if they are doing well. But if you are taking damage and using potions at the lowest difficulty, it won't even ask you about it (with the obvious option to change the difficulty manually through meny always being available as well).

That way, people who want to plower-house through the game without any thought to tactics can do so without them going into the menu and changing the setting to Casual.

I don't see how this is relevant. Why do you have the idea that anyone wants to powerhouse through the game?

Did you see some of the previous posts in this thread? Do you know what fanbase you're dealing with?

[The Hierophant]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

This would be cool. The only problem that comes into play is what you make that time frame.

Is it thirty seconds? Then people will chug a potion, walk away from the game and grab a soda, rinse, lather, repeat.

Is it hours? Well, now we are running into abstratctions of time and how things happen within the game. There will be weather and day/night effects, but does that also mean a realistic time tracking? If so, will there be a way to make that clock jump forward? Say you want to visit somewhere at night, but it is high noon right now - you'd want a way to control that.

So what would prevent someone from abusing said time mechanics to space out their potion drinking?

An honor system?...

lol nah. I think each successive potion taken during the cooldown of the original should multiply the time the effect subsides, while waiting still incurs a penalty to stats (hangover), resting runs the risk of enemy respawns, and the tonic is expensive along with rare ingredients.

[Realmzmaster]

Foxhound2121 wrote...

Dragon Age is not Dark Souls. There will be times when you take damage and it's unavoidable, unexpected, and it's RNG. It's not like you can raise shield or strafe to dodge a fireball to avoid damage all together like a pure tactical game.


All this will add to the game is busy work to backtrack and buy potions. I don't really see how anyone thinks that adds further enjoyment. None of this was sorely missed.

The only thing you will miss out with health regen is not having to walk down the same road a dozen times for nothing.

In your opinion it is busywork. In my opinion it is fun and yes I sorely missed it. I like resource management and planning for the expedition or campaign. I make a best estimate on what I think the party will need. I rarely have to backtrack unless the story requires it.

Balancing resources for me is part of the charm in early crpgs. Sometimes I will underestimate to a small degree what I need which to me makes the dungeon trek all the more interesting. I am looking at long term resource managment not justn the short term. I see as a test of how well I have planned.

I find it fun to have the party on the brink of collaspe and being able to find that spot to rest and recuperate. Have the mage throw up a glyph of warning or have the rogue trap the doors so the party can rest. That is what I miss in the DA games which was present in older crpgs games like BG1, BG2, NWN, NWN2, Icewind Dale, Ultima and Wizardry.
Yes, the party will get hit the idea is to plan well by equipping the party properly which helps to mitigate the damage.
Yes, I like hardcore (like Fallout:New Vegas) , Ironman and dark modes in the games I play. I want friendly fire, permadeath of companions and resource management. I find that to be fun.

[Pzykozis]

Nerevar-as wrote...

In fact, I do. Combat loses all threat when there´s no price to pay. Get killed? You lose 1 minute at worst. Get beaten to an inch of your life for going unprepared? Doesn´t matter, you recover fully in 1 second. Anything that is even a bit uncomfortable to the player is getting removed, lets not even think of RTFMing (Witcher 2 prologue...). One of the reasons the first Alien vs Predator marine campaign was scary as hell was you couldn´t quicksave, you died, you started all over. Death and hard fights must mean something, or they have no purpose. If you don´t like the feature, play on the easiest difficulty level, which by today´s standards of difficulty will probably amount to push a button and all enemies dropping dead.

Eh, kiddy gloves and being bored? How does that even make sense. Of course people don't particularly look forward to mechanics they find tedious this doesn't however necessarily link with the idea of needing things dumbed down, that's just people wanting to spend their time doing things they enjoy.

[Foxhound2121]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Foxhound2121 wrote...

Dragon Age is not Dark Souls. There will be times when you take damage and it's unavoidable, unexpected, and it's RNG. It's not like you can raise shield or strafe to dodge a fireball to avoid damage all together like a pure tactical game.


All this will add to the game is busy work to backtrack and buy potions. I don't really see how anyone thinks that adds further enjoyment. None of this was sorely missed.

The only thing you will miss out with health regen is not having to walk down the same road a dozen times for nothing.

In fact, I do. Combat loses all threat when there´s no price to pay. Get killed? You lose 1 minute at worst. Get beaten to an inch of your life for going unprepared? Doesn´t matter, you recover fully in 1 second. Anything that is even a bit uncomfortable to the player is getting removed, lets not even think of RTFMing (Witcher 2 prologue...). One of the reasons the first Alien vs Predator marine campaign was scary as hell was you couldn´t quicksave, you died, you started all over. Death and hard fights must mean something, or they have no purpose. If you don´t like the feature, play on the easiest difficulty level, which by today´s standards of difficulty will probably amount to push a button and all enemies dropping dead.

None of that is hard. Just because you backtracked somewhere doesn't mean difficult. And why mention lowering the difficulty? I always play on hard difficulty. What I don't care for is unfair hard, deceptive hard, busy work hard, and pigeonhole hard. None of those are "hard" as some may claim. 

[AlanC9]

Realmzmaster wrote...
I find it fun to have the party on the brink of collaspe and being able to find that spot to rest and recuperate. Have the mage throw up a glyph of warning or have the rogue trap the doors so the party can rest. That is what I miss in the DA games which was present in older crpgs games like BG1, BG2, NWN, NWN2, Icewind Dale, Ultima and Wizardry.

You sure you want NWN on that list? Or NWN2 except for SoZ?

[AlanC9]

Nerevar-as wrote...
In fact, I do. Combat loses all threat when there´s no price to pay. Get killed? You lose 1 minute at worst. Get beaten to an inch of your life for going unprepared? Doesn´t matter, you recover fully in 1 second. Anything that is even a bit uncomfortable to the player is getting removed, lets not even think of RTFMing (Witcher 2 prologue...). One of the reasons the first Alien vs Predator marine campaign was scary as hell was you couldn´t quicksave, you died, you started all over. Death and hard fights must mean something, or they have no purpose. If you don´t like the feature, play on the easiest difficulty level, which by today´s standards of difficulty will probably amount to push a button and all enemies dropping dead.

Sounds like you're making an argument against reloading.

[Realmzmaster]

The Hierophant wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

This would be cool. The only problem that comes into play is what you make that time frame.

Is it thirty seconds? Then people will chug a potion, walk away from the game and grab a soda, rinse, lather, repeat.

Is it hours? Well, now we are running into abstratctions of time and how things happen within the game. There will be weather and day/night effects, but does that also mean a realistic time tracking? If so, will there be a way to make that clock jump forward? Say you want to visit somewhere at night, but it is high noon right now - you'd want a way to control that.

So what would prevent someone from abusing said time mechanics to space out their potion drinking?

An honor system?...

lol nah. I think each successive potion taken during the cooldown of the original should multiply the time the effect subsides, while waiting still incurs a penalty to stats (hangover), resting runs the risk of enemy respawns, and the tonic is expensive along with rare ingredients.

As I stated before I think that taking to many healing potions during a particular combat should poison the character's system causing damage or as Hierophant states have dimishing returns for each subsequent potion taken on the higher levels. Nightmare should be truly nightmarish.