1109 réponses à ce sujet

[Am1vf]

This thread is still going?!

Some people like regen, some don't. Untill we know more of how it works I don't see how there is so much to discuss about.

[Fetunche]

I don't want it to be easy I just want it to be fun.

[Maconbar]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

To put this in perspective for myself, I usually played DA:O on Nightmare. I fired up DA2 with the same difficulty, expecting a similar experience.

But I found the overly abused wave mechanics, the giant HP pools of enemies, the need to kite while waiting for cool downs, the focus on skills over standard attacks/proper unit matching, the neccessity in many cases to utilize Cross Class Combos (with very little support to making said tactics interface easily), etc. to make the game very tedious for me. Notice - I didn't say HARD... just tedious.

So I dropped the difficulty down to Casual just to get through things faster and not have to suffer the nonsense of features I didn't agree with. It let me get through the game faster and made dislike the combat less.

So I don't see why people feel they can't drop the difficulty down if they really are slconcerned with the effect a no-regen of health would have on the game. Enemies will do less damage, you do more (meaning the enemy will have less time to do damage to you as well) and you will likely be able to use potions/rest sparingly. You would dislike the tedium of dealing with the game's mechanics on higher difficulty settings, so you bypass most of them by making combat easier.

If you don't want combat over in a flash, then maybe just drop to Easy instead of Casual. But Normal should be where such a mechanics begins to come into play, if even only a little. Hard should should make it something you address regularly. And Nightmare should make it difficult to even beat the game, where you are having to spend lots of money/resources on healing, forcing you to play well or forgoe other things like better equipment throughout the entire game.


I really don't see the problem with this - because it is exactly like how other DA games have worked. Mechanics and concepts are introduced that are pretty much circumvented by the lower difficulty alone. If you don't like no health regen, there's no point in asking for an option to turn it off on lower difficulties - I have a large amount of confidence it won't be a factor on those difficulties regardless.

But the issue isn't really about wanting to avoid difficulty in the discussion between regen/no-regen for many people. I will use the example of KOTOR. On Taris, if you wanted to play on higher levels of difficulty, one perfectly reasonable approach would be to fast travel back to the apartment, heal, and then fast travel back. Even as a beginning Jedi on Dantooine, it was often quicker to fast travel, heal, and then return. Another option would be to drink a few potions after combat and then move on. Sitting around waiting for my force bar to fill so I could heal up or watching the fast travel load screens were really the only things beside the space combat mini-game that I didn't enjoy. However, KOTOR wasn't intrinsically more difficult than Dragon Age because it didn't have autoregen.

If Bioware combines no-regen with interesting camping or other enjoyable ways to manage things, I will be happy. I mainly want to avoid time sinks that games like KOTOR or Morrowind have.

[Fast Jimmy]

Fetunche wrote...

I don't want it to be easy I just want it to be fun.

From a mechanics point of view, I don't see the difference for you. Because health regen is, to me, a mechanic that makes things easy in RPGs. In my eyes, your preference is that things aren't fun unless they are easy. 

I won't dress up my personal tastes as being anything but more difficult. You need to spend more money on supplies (less money for other things), plan ahead, be aware of the different problems that may arise (status conditions such as poisoning, paralysis, mute, petrify, etc.) and learn to overcome obstacles you were not able to anticipate. All of that is more difficult. And more fun to me.

Spamming a rest mechanic after every fight - or its equivalent - just so you can say you played a game on Normal (or, for an earlier poster, Nightmare) seems like a terrible idea. If you'd like Bioware to prevent you from doing so to save you this tedium (say, by locking down dungeons once you enter them), I'm not sure you'd like that at all. 

If you want to stroll through combat without having to worry about how much damage you take and wanting to feel like you are pulverizing your enemies without batting an eye, then that's totally cool. Just realize, its asking that a game be easy. 

[Fetunche]

The things you are describing resource management, health monitoring, poisoning disease etc aren't difficult just dull. Planning, tactics and strategy aren't difficult either but are interesting and challenging if done well, no health regen doesn't effect these, it adds to the dullness.

[Fast Jimmy]

Fetunche wrote...

The things you are describing resource management, health monitoring, poisoning disease etc aren't difficult just dull. Planning, tactics and strategy aren't difficult either but are interesting and challenging if done well, no health regen doesn't effect these, it adds to the dullness.

They are only dull if you are bad at them and have to game the system through tedious activities constantly. 

Yes, you can stock up on 100 potions to game around this. That's not strategic or tactical. 

Yes, you can rest or leave a dungeon after every encounter. That's not strategic or tactical. 

Yes, you can game the mana system to allow you heal your companions during combat in a way the developers did not intend. THAT'S NOT STRATEGIC OR TACTICAL. 

Finding the route that involves the least amount of thinking and then calling it dull is baffling to me. And ultimately winds up leading developers to putting in additional mechanics to preventing such "boring" exploitation (such as restricting sleep, or adding food, or making potions prohibitively expensive, etc.) that I don't believe you would find enjoyable (although I would).

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 09 août 2013 - 02:21 .

[Am1vf]

Fetunche wrote...

The things you are describing resource management, health monitoring, poisoning disease etc aren't difficult just dull. Planning, tactics and strategy aren't difficult either but are interesting and challenging if done well, no health regen doesn't effect these, it adds to the dullness.

Then how would you call my energy cells business in X2 The Threat? Diferent people will have fun with diferent things.

[Abramis brama]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

EvilChani wrote...

Northern Sun wrote...

Not a fan of this particular change. I don't look forward to the inevitable time when I get hit by something unexpected in a dungeon then have to either limp back to the nearest town and go back to buy potions and go back or reload a previous save and buy more potions.

Ditto. This is a good way to cause frustration and annoyance, in my opinion. I'd have no problem with health slowly returning, or even being forced to sleep to return to full health - ala New Vegas - but being forced to chug potions like an addict is not something I like at all. 

Even if you could become addicted? That was originally an intended gameplay mechanic of DA:O - lyrium addiction. That would definitely be something that would make things quite interesting. 

God that would have been actually really interesting. Damn you bioware for ****ing out.

[billy the squid]

Fetunche wrote...

The things you are describing resource management, health monitoring, poisoning disease etc aren't difficult just dull. Planning, tactics and strategy aren't difficult either but are interesting and challenging if done well, no health regen doesn't effect these, it adds to the dullness.

You never tried to complete the deep road in DAO without a healer on nightmare did you? If you did you'd know that those aspects, injury, poison and fatigue from each encounter stack up and comprimise your party very quickly if you let it. 

If you want instant health regen as a matter of course, frankly stick it on easy and be done with it. The effect is the same, you roll through every encounter with little difficulty.

DA2 was a prime example of cannon fodder wave combat, the issue wasn't the injuries you recieved having any measurable effect after a battle, it was inflated HP and spamming waves of mooks to grind your health down in a single combat, because it would regen after. That is the antithisis of "fun", it becomes  mindless drudgery.

Modifié par billy the squid, 09 août 2013 - 02:27 .

[Fetunche]

I'm not bad at them I just don't enjoy them. Just because you find them difficult doesn't mean we all do.

[Maconbar]

I haven't played DA:O in a while but didn't it have health regen?

[billy the squid]

Fetunche wrote...

I'm not bad at them I just don't enjoy them. Just because you find them difficult doesn't mean we all do.

not sure what point you're trying to make.

[billy the squid]

Maconbar wrote...

I haven't played DA:O in a while but didn't it have health regen?

It did, but considering I'm talking about the effects of injury, poisons and other status effects which impacted on the damage taken, rate of health regen and stopped it out right or continued damaging for a period of time. The health regen was slow and over time in combat injuries and statuses affected the part more than simple HP regen could compensate for.

I hated DA2 simply because of the mindless wave mechanics and bloated HP bars, and the only status inflicted a penalty to maximum HP, which could be compensated for with other spells and status effects. Considering th HP regenerated as well. Injuries didn't make the character any less of an effective fighter, I could simply barrel through the next combat without worrying if my melee characters were going to be suffering from reduced attack, strength, fatigue regeneration etc.

[Fast Jimmy]

Fetunche wrote...

I'm not bad at them I just don't enjoy them. Just because you find them difficult doesn't mean we all do.

Ah. The "I'm so good at them I find them boring... but if you find them interesting YOU must be terrible at them" argument. I didn't realize I was talking to a fourteen year old. 

Please respond with something other than "it's boring." If you are only going to say that, at least quantity that boring is a subjective term and list out exactly WHY you would find a no health regen system boring, other than tedious actions that are nothing more than gaming the system (which indicates BAD resource management).

[vortex216]

eh... we shall see how it goes.

[Fetunche]

Your the one who is condescending and goes on about difficulty and people who don't enjoy the same things you do are bad players.

[Fast Jimmy]

Fetunche wrote...

Your the one who is condescending and goes on about difficulty and people who don't enjoy the same things you do are bad players.

And YOU'RE the one not making a cohesive argument other than the forum version of stomping your feet and saying "no, no, no!" 

Tell me how such a system is boring without abusing the system. If you can't, then that means the feature is fine, it just needs to make sure players can't use a resting mechanics after every fight, or spam potions all the time, or be able to track back to a home base for an insta-heal. If you remove all of those things, I guarantee you the game will be anything BUT boring. 

Hard as snot, sure. But definitely not boring. 

[Maconbar]

billy the squid wrote...

Maconbar wrote...

I haven't played DA:O in a while but didn't it have health regen?

It did, but considering I'm talking about the effects of injury, poisons and other status effects which impacted on the damage taken, rate of health regen and stopped it out right or continued damaging for a period of time. The health regen was slow and over time in combat injuries and statuses affected the part more than simple HP regen could compensate for.

I hated DA2 simply because of the mindless wave mechanics and bloated HP bars, and the only status inflicted a penalty to maximum HP, which could be compensated for with other spells and status effects. Considering th HP regenerated as well. Injuries didn't make the character any less of an effective fighter, I could simply barrel through the next combat without worrying if my melee characters were going to be suffering from reduced attack, strength, fatigue regeneration etc.

I didn't like DA:2 for many of the same reasons that you cite here, but I am not certain autoregen was the primary reason for its underlying problems.

My main worry about the switch is that I don't enjoy watch mana bars slowly tic up. In Morrowind I didn't enjoy the approach of fast travel, load screen, walk to inn, load screen, pay 10 gold, rest, load screen. In Skyrim I am playing a character with high restoration so that I can minimize my downtime (granted I am not very far into the game yet). I preferred DA:O. If this change results in a more strategic approach with limited resources, I will be thrilled. I just didn't see that in either DA:O or KOTOR, which are my favorite crpgs.

[Taleroth]

krul2k wrote...

each class gets a self heal only usable out of combat simple

Not that simple considering you just overcomplicated party rest.

[Fast Jimmy]

krul2k wrote...

yeah jimmy stop giving us bad players a bad name ya condescending bugger

Is playing on an Easier difficulty level because you find it more enjoyable giving anyone a bad name? I just admitted I did it for these exact reasons in DA2.

I suggested something yesterday I want to bring up again - starting everyone on Casual difficulty. Have it be the default setting. Then, a player can either manually go in and change it or the game can prompt them if they have successfully gone through a certain number of fights without sustaining much damage. This way, people can feel like they have been rewarded by getting to even Easy or Normal difficulty, while those who want the hardest challenge can change the setting from the get-go (which they would have to do with Normal being the default difficulty setting anyway).

That way, no one has to feel like they are admitting defeat by playing on Casual. And if you never get prompted change it, then guess what? You won't even KNOW about said prompts unless you read about it or someone mentions it. Either way, it is the default difficulty level - so who is ashamed about playing on the default difficulty level?

This isn't an attack on "Casuals" but rather a practical approach - the game would likely be more fun for you on this setting. So why feel like you have to prove something by playing on a difficulty level you don't enjoy? Has anyone ever come into your house and laughed and pointed because you aren't playing the highest difficulty or you didn't unlock a difficulty achievement?

If so, I'd say you may want to better monitor who you let in your house. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 09 août 2013 - 03:25 .

[Am1vf]

krul2k wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

krul2k wrote...

each class gets a self heal only usable out of combat simple

Not that simple considering you just overcomplicated party rest.

your self heal transfers to your current party an heals them out of combat simple

How is that better than fast health regen?