1109 réponses à ce sujet

[Fast Jimmy]

i was being a smart arse m8 lol, no need to explain yerself to me 

I know... you just gave me an excuse to respond, so I did.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 09 août 2013 - 03:31 .

[Allan Schumacher]

If you want instant health regen as a matter of course, frankly stick it on easy and be done with it. The effect is the same, you roll through every encounter with little difficulty.

I disagree with the notion that health regen means rolling through every encounter with little difficulty.

I didn't realize I was talking to a fourteen year old.

[Am1vf]

@krul2k. OP:

jvaz wrote...

Saw in the the latest tidbit of coverage that health will no longer regen after encounters........Interesting.  

Modifié par Am1_vf, 09 août 2013 - 03:32 .

[AresKeith]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

For a game like DAI, from a gamer perspective I'd probably prefer no health regen.

From a developer perspective I'm more indifferent. I can see advantages and disadvantages to both, and there seems to be a divide as shown in this thread.

Would it be better if it was a toggle in the options?

[Fast Jimmy]

[quote]Allan Schumacher wrote...

[quote]If you want instant health regen as a matter of course, frankly stick it on easy and be done with it. The effect is the same, you roll through every encounter with little difficulty.[/quote]

I disagree with the notion that health regen means rolling through every encounter with little difficulty.[/quote] True, but in a game balanced with no health regen in mind, putting said game on the lowest difficulty level would likely give the same result the poster was asking for - being able to go through a dungeon without having to stock up on potions outside of looting or needing to flee a dungeon to go rest, etc.

[quote][Quote]I didn't realize I was talking to a fourteen year old. [/quote]
[/quote]
[/quote] Was that comparison too degrading to fourteen year olds? I thought about putting eight.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 09 août 2013 - 03:40 .

[Maconbar]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

If you want instant health regen as a matter of course, frankly stick it on easy and be done with it. The effect is the same, you roll through every encounter with little difficulty.

I disagree with the notion that health regen means rolling through every encounter with little difficulty.

I didn't realize I was talking to a fourteen year old.

Thank you

[RedArmyShogun]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
I disagree with the notion that health regen means rolling through every encounter with little difficulty.

Hmm not so sure if I agree with that in some ways I have to say regen health has made many games praticularly shooters more easy, Now days you can run in like a madman, get luck, duck for a bit, rinse and repeat, versus health item games where you have to plan and take it easy, as that health doesn't come back or it means hunting down powerups.  In general it favored more conservitive play.

Like in most modern shooters with the regen system I've only been killed when my shield has dropped, if I took on more than I could chew, or "god AI's" IE cheating bots that always get in head shots and have endless grenades (looking at you World at War) on the other hand, hp based games that you need to heal in little screw ups have killed me countless times. I won't say the game its self is any easier but the regen system allows for more carefree and wreckless play than what I grew up with.

[AlanC9]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Fetunche wrote...

I don't want it to be easy I just want it to be fun.

From a mechanics point of view, I don't see the difference for you. Because health regen is, to me, a mechanic that makes things easy in RPGs. In my eyes, your preference is that things aren't fun unless they are easy. 

(snip)

Spamming a rest mechanic after every fight - or its equivalent - just so you can say you played a game on Normal (or, for an earlier poster, Nightmare) seems like a terrible idea. If you'd like Bioware to prevent you from doing so to save you this tedium (say, by locking down dungeons once you enter them), I'm not sure you'd like that at all. 

Since we can spam the rest mechanic, or whatever the equivalent is, is it really accurate to say that regen makes the game easier? In a game without regen, the effect is that the player has more control over the difficulty of any particular encounter. He can go in weakened for more difficulty, or trade off tedium/ the party's end-game item loadout/whatever in return for less difficulty.

Of course, it's possible that there won't be any such workaround, and players who find the feature annoying will just have to suck it up or ragequit. But I can't remember the last game that locked out the rest mechanic for more time than it takes to walk across a single map zone.

There is also the psychological effect that RedArmyShogun points out above. I suppose that could be called a perception of difficulty.

Modifié par AlanC9, 09 août 2013 - 04:08 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Since we can spam the rest mechanic, or whatever the equivalent is, is it really accurate to say that regen makes the game easier? In a game without regen, the effect is that the player has more control over the difficulty of any particular encounter. He can go in weakened for more difficulty, or trade off tedium/ the party's end-game item loadout/whatever in return for less difficulty.

I agree - in a case like that, where the game is easily manipulated, then that is poor design and functionally not that much different than a game with auto-regen.

But that could be a little like saying "there is a game that uses gold instead of giving all equipment for free, but gold is so plentiful that they might as well give us equipment for free. Therefore, gold is a time waster and games should just give us free equipment."

When, in reality, there are a number of ways you can balance how gold is acquired and used by the player that makes it not broken. The same is true of non-regen health. Many people have suggested numerous ways to make the game NOT what people have been decrying. Instead of giving feedback on these solutions, I've noticed many people just keep saying "but I'll just be forced to sleep after every battle and I find this boring."

Which, to me, is just saying "I don't want to actually think about this topic or this feature, I just want things my way." And for that, I apologize for having little patience.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 09 août 2013 - 04:07 .

[Maconbar]

RedArmyShogun wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...
I disagree with the notion that health regen means rolling through every encounter with little difficulty.

Hmm not so sure if I agree with that in some ways I have to say regen health has made many games praticularly shooters more easy, Now days you can run in like a madman, get luck, duck for a bit, rinse and repeat, versus health item games where you have to plan and take it easy, as that health doesn't come back or it means hunting down powerups.  In general it favored more conservitive play.

Like in most modern shooters with the regen system I've only been killed when my shield has dropped, if I took on more than I could chew, or "god AI's" IE cheating bots that always get in head shots and have endless grenades (looking at you World at War) on the other hand, hp based games that you need to heal in little screw ups have killed me countless times. I won't say the game its self is any easier but the regen system allows for more carefree and wreckless play than what I grew up with.

I found that BG was much harder than KOTOR, DA:O and DA:2 but I don't think that regeneration of HPs had much to do with the difference in difficulty. I can't comment on shooters because I haven't really played one since Quake, although I did start to replay Dark Forces.

[Ziggeh]

AresKeith wrote...

Would it be better if it was a toggle in the options?

Would it be better if the game contained two distinct combat systems? Or to put it another way, would it be better if only half the development time is put into the combat system you favour?

[John Epler]

Every time someone suggests that we just add a toggle for a feature they aren't entirely on board with, a kitten bursts into flame.

[Fast Jimmy]

Ziggeh wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Would it be better if it was a toggle in the options?

Would it be better if the game contained two distinct combat systems? Or to put it another way, would it be better if only half the development time is put into the combat system you favour?

It may better... but I'm not sure it is entirely practical. 

Even FO:NV, which had the optional hardcore mode which required sleep, food, water, more realistic damage/injuries and more punitive weight factors, didn't create truly different enemy stats or AI that would have truly exploited sucha a feature. To create two truly unique combat/world mechanics that a player can toggle on and off is likely a mammoth undertaking.

[AlanC9]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
I agree - in a case like that, where the game is easily manipulated, then that is poor design and functionally not that much different than a game with auto-regen. 

But that could be a little like saying "there is a game that uses gold instead of giving all equipment for free, but gold is so plentiful that they might as well give us equipment for free. Therefore, gold is a time waster and games should just give us free equipment."

When, in reality, there are a number of ways you can balance how gold is acquired and used by the player that makes it not broken. The same is true of non-regen health. Many people have suggested numerous ways to make the game NOT what people have been decrying. Instead of giving feedback on these solutions, I've noticed many people just keep saying "but I'll just be forced to sleep after every battle and I find this boring."

Which, to me, is just saying "I don't want to actually think about this topic or this feature, I just want things my way." And for that, I apologize for having little patience.

Are there any games without regen that actually are balanced well? The IE games don't strike me as a good example of this. ToEE was even worse, and the NWN games didn't try (SoZ excepted, and resting was hardly difficult to achieve there if you paid any attention to the skill system).

Maybe the Gold Box games? It's been so long I can't remember.

Modifié par AlanC9, 09 août 2013 - 04:14 .

[AlanC9]

John Epler wrote...

Every time someone suggests that we just add a toggle for a feature they aren't entirely on board with, a kitten bursts into flame.

I wondered when this meme would make an appearance.

[Fast Jimmy]

Are there any games without regen that actually are balanced well? The IE games don't strike me as a good example of this. ToEE was even worse, and the NWN games didn't try (SoZ excepted, and resting was hardly difficult to achieve there if you paid any attention to the skill system).

Maybe the Gold Box games? It's been so long I can't remember.

I find the Fallout games pretty good? Starting out, stimpacks are rather rare/expensive and you are forced to sleep or use First Aid/Doctor to heal. This was balanced out with a (granted, pretty generous) time limit for the two sections of the game that prevented TOTAL abuse of this mechanic.

But people decry such time factors as too confining and can let a player paint themselves in a corner too easily.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 09 août 2013 - 04:17 .

[Ziggeh]

I'm really not sure why we're discussing the potential difficulty of the narrative mode. The whole point is that it's a walk through. You should be taking less damage than you need to breeze through. If that involves regen or not isn't relevant.

[In Exile]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Fetunche wrote...

No health regen doesn't make it more difficult it just adds a lot of unnecessary faffing about. I hate having to drag a rogue around or revisit areas with a rogue just to unlock stuff and I don't want to have to drag a Mage around to heal or make potions so I don't have to waste money and inventory space. Resting, eating, drinking also waste money and inventory space just extra layers of tedium. I want to have companions in my party that I want, not because I have to.(or no companions). Is it such a hard concept to grasp difficulty isn't the issue, boredom is.

To parrot your unnecessary exasperation, is it such a hard concept to grasp that lower difficulty will make the game likely so easy, you won't need to rest/heal/use items outside of your normal course of business anyway, so there would BE no tedium for those who use it?

Someone might want the actual combat encounter to be challenging, however. The real issue here is resource management.  You and I obviously think it's part of the fun and game, so we want it in. But presumably players who don't see it as tedium being added to the game at their  preferred difficulty. 

[AresKeith]

Ziggeh wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Would it be better if it was a toggle in the options?

Would it be better if the game contained two distinct combat systems? Or to put it another way, would it be better if only half the development time is put into the combat system you favour?

If this is a sarcastic remark then I don't see the reason for it

Because I'm all for no health regen

[John Epler]

As to what games are balanced around their health mechanics, Dark Souls/Demon's Souls comes to mind (more the former than the latter). You could acquire limited health regeneration, of course, but as with most things in that game it was a fairly significant trade-off.

I don't think it's any more difficult to balance a game around a lack of health regeneration as opposed to around health regeneration - it simply requires a different mindset. You shift your focus on the 'average' number of resources a party will have at that point as opposed to always assuming everyone's at full strength.

Personally, I dig it. One of the things that always drew me to the STALKER games (take a shot) is the feeling of going on expeditions out into the uncharted wastelands. You had your stash, and you'd take what you thought you might need - and hope that was enough. It made for some excellent emergent storytelling and kept things interesting, even in the earlier areas.