1109 réponses à ce sujet

[TMJfin]

John Epler wrote...

Every time someone suggests that we just add a toggle for a feature they aren't entirely on board with, a kitten bursts into flame.

I don't actually like cats (allergic, can't breath around them) so toggle toggle toggle toggle, toggle everything!

[Ziggeh]

AresKeith wrote...

If this is a sarcastic remark then I don't see the reason for it

Because I'm all for no health regen

It's not sarcastic, I think the answer to both those questions are fairly evident and illustrate the issue.

[AlanC9]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I find the Fallout games pretty good? Starting out, stimpacks are rather rare/expensive and you are forced to sleep or use First Aid/Doctor to heal. This was balanced out with a (granted, pretty generous) time limit for the two sections of the game that prevented TOTAL abuse of this mechanic.

But people decry such time factors as too confining and can let a player paint themselves in a corner too easily.

Even back then it wasn't popular-- they nerfed the time limits in a patch.

Sounds like you don't need actual balance, just the appearance of balance.

[AlanC9]

In Exile wrote...
Someone might want the actual combat encounter to be challenging, however. The real issue here is resource management.  You and I obviously think it's part of the fun and game, so we want it in. But presumably players who don't see it as tedium being added to the game at their  preferred difficulty. 

Right. If someone doesn't like resource management, organizing DA:I around resource management will make the game worse for him. .

[llandwynwyn]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
I disagree with the notion that health regen means rolling through every encounter with little difficulty.

But it'll make the game easier if there's random encounters in the game. And if there isn't, well, just stick with your small (corridor) forest maps, Bioware. 

Modifié par llandwynwyn, 09 août 2013 - 04:33 .

[AresKeith]

Ziggeh wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

If this is a sarcastic remark then I don't see the reason for it

Because I'm all for no health regen

It's not sarcastic, I think the answer to both those questions are fairly evident and illustrate the issue.

I can understand that it's a complex system

But I am trying to understand why people are against no health regen

[Beerfish]

As I have said previously, as long as it is very hard for a person to paint themselves into a corner in this regard i am fine with it. You can't let the player get in a spot where they have saved the game and not realized they were about to be in a really bad spot resource wise and have to go back hours and hours for a save long ago.

My example is the spirit meter in Mask of the betrayer. On the outside a unique and interesting device that was to keep the player on their toes and have to manage their game play. In reality it was very easy to just screw yourself and be put in a continuous untenable position to the point you had to revert to a save way in the past, if you had one.

[AlanC9]

Something I don't think we've talked enough about is what going to resource management will do for plots. Resource management games, historically, have left the initiative completely in the hands of the player so he can actually, you know, manage resources. I can't think of any D&D modules offhand where the players are on defense rather than offense, for example.

It's also very hard to do something like the Tower of Ishal sequence in a resource management game, unless you either keep it short or have plenty of consumables available so someone can just power through. This is pretty much what Beerfish is talking about above.

Modifié par AlanC9, 09 août 2013 - 04:36 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Someone might want the actual combat encounter to be challenging, however. The real issue here is resource management. You and I obviously think it's part of the fun and game, so we want it in. But presumably players who don't see it as tedium being added to the game at their preferred difficulty.

Yet there is obviously no way to make both groups happy. In previous DA games, the feature was absent and could have led to some of the design choices that I found undesireable in DA2... hence, I dropped DA2's difficulty down to Casual about halfway through the game. Not because I was dying or finding things impossible, but because the Arishok fight was 30 minutes of non-stop kiting.

So this may not please those who don't like resource management, or who find games where easy manipulation of the system forces them do said manipulation, even if that manipulation is dull or boring.

I'd say apart from building two totally different systems for one game (which is a nightmare), they can work to make the "gaming the system" aspects to the feature minimal and instead make the way the mechanic is intended to be used as engaging and entertaining as possible.

[TMJfin]

LindsayLohan wrote...

TMJfin wrote...

John Epler wrote...

Every time someone suggests that we just add a toggle for a feature they aren't entirely on board with, a kitten bursts into flame.

I don't actually like cats (allergic, can't breath around them) so toggle toggle toggle toggle, toggle everything!

Probably the most psychotic thing I have seen on this site...I like it

Well thank you. I've got a kinda dark/psychotic sense of humour in real life I just don't use it much in here, cause english isn't my first language and I think people would just assume that I'm crazy. Well, I am, but don't have to take pills for it.

Modifié par TMJfin, 09 août 2013 - 04:37 .

[andar91]

AresKeith wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

If this is a sarcastic remark then I don't see the reason for it

Because I'm all for no health regen

It's not sarcastic, I think the answer to both those questions are fairly evident and illustrate the issue.

I can understand that it's a complex system

But I am trying to understand why people are against no health regen

I'll put in a disclaimer here that I haven't read the whole thread.

I think it's mainly a fear of strange resource management. It also comes from imagining the numbers/combat designed as they have been for Origins and DA2, which both had health regeneration. My guess is that many of the enemies will actually deal less damage than before per-hit to compensate for the no health regeneration. On the other hand, they COULD just give us more potions.

[Realmzmaster]

Fetunche wrote...

I don't want it to be easy I just want it to be fun.

Fun is very subjective. Your idea of fun may not be my idea of fun.

[Fast Jimmy]

AlanC9 wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I find the Fallout games pretty good? Starting out, stimpacks are rather rare/expensive and you are forced to sleep or use First Aid/Doctor to heal. This was balanced out with a (granted, pretty generous) time limit for the two sections of the game that prevented TOTAL abuse of this mechanic.

But people decry such time factors as too confining and can let a player paint themselves in a corner too easily.

Even back then it wasn't popular-- they nerfed the time limits in a patch.

Sounds like you don't need actual balance, just the appearance of balance.

An incentive to not abuse a mechanic is more than the appearance of balance, I would think. Maybe not perfectly balanced, but if you made the time restraints more confining so that each rest was really a hard choice or you limited stimpacks the entire game, people would have been upset about that too. 

The hard reality is there is no perfect balance. Mostly because people have different tastes. 

[Fast Jimmy]

AlanC9 wrote...

Something I don't think we've talked enough about is what going to resource management will do for plots. Resource management games, historically, have left the initiative completely in the hands of the player so he can actually, you know, manage resources. I can't think of any D&D modules offhand where the players are on defense rather than offense, for example.

It's also very hard to do something like the Tower of Ishal sequence in a resource management game, unless you either keep it short or have plenty of consumables available so someone can just power through. This is pretty much what Beerfish is talking about above.

True. I'd say they could still do these types of instances and make sure the loot in these areas is more predicated to dropping potions?

EDIT: Or there could be a form of DA2's system, where the game won't drop potions if you don't use them, but where they will show up all the time if you start running low?

This was a great idea for a system. I just wish they had told someone about it.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 09 août 2013 - 04:46 .

[Maconbar]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Someone might want the actual combat encounter to be challenging, however. The real issue here is resource management. You and I obviously think it's part of the fun and game, so we want it in. But presumably players who don't see it as tedium being added to the game at their preferred difficulty.

Yet there is obviously no way to make both groups happy. In previous DA games, the feature was absent and could have led to some of the design choices that I found undesireable in DA2... hence, I dropped DA2's difficulty down to Casual about halfway through the game. Not because I was dying or finding things impossible, but because the Arishok fight was 30 minutes of non-stop kiting.

So this may not please those who don't like resource management, or who find games where easy manipulation of the system forces them do said manipulation, even if that manipulation is dull or boring.

I'd say apart from building two totally different systems for one game (which is a nightmare), they can work to make the "gaming the system" aspects to the feature minimal and instead make the way the mechanic is intended to be used as engaging and entertaining as possible.

How does the Arishok fight relate to health regeneration out of combat? Aren't these entirely separate issues?

DA:O had health regeneration but you seem to like that game?

[Bfler]

As long as I don't have to wait some minutes after every fight til the healer has restored the health of every party member or I have to travel to town permanently to buy new potions, I would be ok with it.

Modifié par Bfler, 09 août 2013 - 04:52 .

[Realmzmaster]

AlanC9 wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
I agree - in a case like that, where the game is easily manipulated, then that is poor design and functionally not that much different than a game with auto-regen. 

But that could be a little like saying "there is a game that uses gold instead of giving all equipment for free, but gold is so plentiful that they might as well give us equipment for free. Therefore, gold is a time waster and games should just give us free equipment."

When, in reality, there are a number of ways you can balance how gold is acquired and used by the player that makes it not broken. The same is true of non-regen health. Many people have suggested numerous ways to make the game NOT what people have been decrying. Instead of giving feedback on these solutions, I've noticed many people just keep saying "but I'll just be forced to sleep after every battle and I find this boring."

Which, to me, is just saying "I don't want to actually think about this topic or this feature, I just want things my way." And for that, I apologize for having little patience.

Are there any games without regen that actually are balanced well? The IE games don't strike me as a good example of this. ToEE was even worse, and the NWN games didn't try (SoZ excepted, and resting was hardly difficult to achieve there if you paid any attention to the skill system).

Maybe the Gold Box games? It's been so long I can't remember.

What about Pool of Radiance:Myth Drannor? It has been a while since I have played it. The Gold Box games, now that brings back memories. I may have to fire up the C64 to play them.

[Fast Jimmy]

John Epler wrote...

As to what games are balanced around their health mechanics, Dark Souls/Demon's Souls comes to mind (more the former than the latter). You could acquire limited health regeneration, of course, but as with most things in that game it was a fairly significant trade-off.

A party-based game version of Dark Souls would be a thing to see. But I don't think the opponents of the health regen feature in this thread would think that is a viable solution.

I don't think it's any more difficult to balance a game around a lack of health regeneration as opposed to around health regeneration - it simply requires a different mindset. You shift your focus on the 'average' number of resources a party will have at that point as opposed to always assuming everyone's at full strength.

Personally, I dig it. One of the things that always drew me to the STALKER games (take a shot) is the feeling of going on expeditions out into the uncharted wastelands. You had your stash, and you'd take what you thought you might need - and hope that was enough. It made for some excellent emergent storytelling and kept things interesting, even in the earlier areas.

And this is what I like about the concept. Trying to plan, being pressed against the wll if things go out of control and the feeling of success/relief when things did go right.

The thing many gamers don't like it if they plan badly, are looking at losing and have Save Game'd themselves into a corner. If you can't retreat, rest or do something else to get healing, people feel like the game has punished them.

To which I would say "just drop it to Narrative and you can one-hit kill everything until you get out" but apparently that's an insult to suggest. 

[Realmzmaster]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Are there any games without regen that actually are balanced well? The IE games don't strike me as a good example of this. ToEE was even worse, and the NWN games didn't try (SoZ excepted, and resting was hardly difficult to achieve there if you paid any attention to the skill system).

Maybe the Gold Box games? It's been so long I can't remember.

I find the Fallout games pretty good? Starting out, stimpacks are rather rare/expensive and you are forced to sleep or use First Aid/Doctor to heal. This was balanced out with a (granted, pretty generous) time limit for the two sections of the game that prevented TOTAL abuse of this mechanic.

But people decry such time factors as too confining and can let a player paint themselves in a corner too easily.

I like the fact that you can get stimpak sickness that can affect eyesight and other abilities. Can be real challenging when in a fight. I also like the fact you can become addicted to the drugs that can be used to the point you need Fixer.

[SlottsMachine]

Fast Jimmy wrote...


To which I would say "just drop it to Narrative and you can one-hit kill everything until you get out" but apparently that's an insult to suggest. 

Insinuating I'm not already on narrative. 

P.S. Did either Origins or Dragon Age 2 have a narrative mode? 

[SlottsMachine]

Bfler wrote...

As long as I don't have to wait some minutes after every fight til the healer has restored the health of every party member or I have to travel to town permanently to buy new potions, I would be ok with it.

Basically this. 

[DarkKnightHolmes]

General Slotts wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...


To which I would say "just drop it to Narrative and you can one-hit kill everything until you get out" but apparently that's an insult to suggest. 

Insinuating I'm not already on narrative. 

P.S. Did either Origins or Dragon Age 2 have a narrative mode? 

Yeah, it was called casual difficulty.

[Fast Jimmy]

How does the Arishok fight relate to health regeneration out of combat? Aren't these entirely separate issues?

DA:O had health regeneration but you seem to like that game?

I did like DA:O. That doesn't mean I loved every single possible feature in DA:O. Auto-regen being one of them.

I mention the Arishok fight for two reasons. Primarily, because DA2 had a design I didn't like (enemy fights with giant HP pools) and by dropping it down to Casual, I was able to better to stomach some of these designs. Which is what I suggested to those who want to go through each fight without having to worry about health do in DA:I.

But since you've brought it up, the Arishok fight is the embodiment of why health regen is a mechanic I do not like. In DA2, there were two fundamental problems with enemy design - namely, HP size and waves. Both are ways to prolong fights and add more challenge. The reason they needed to make fights longer/throw more enemies at you was that the only way to fail is if the game was able to take you from all companions at 100% health to all companions at 0% health. That was literally, the only way for the player to die.

To do so, each fight needed to legitimately get you to go through every healing cool down (potion and spell), as well as take your health down to zero. The ways to do that are to have crazy resilient enemies that are never ending (HP bloat and countless waves) and/or to have over powered enemy attacks capable of wiping out a character insanely quickly.

While most of DA2 was the former, the Arishok was both the former AND the latter. That impale move that could take down even the most robust health bar to nearly zero and could be performed nearly anytime the player got within spitting distance of the Arishok, so it wasn't even a limited move or one done only once a fight.


All that aside... lower difficulty levels can help you circumvent design aspects you like. I used it in DA2, maybe some people in this thread might have to use it for DA:I. Ultimately, I find the "tedium" of resource management more engaging than kiting, so I applaud the decision.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 09 août 2013 - 05:07 .

[Realmzmaster]

AlanC9 wrote...

In Exile wrote...
Someone might want the actual combat encounter to be challenging, however. The real issue here is resource management.  You and I obviously think it's part of the fun and game, so we want it in. But presumably players who don't see it as tedium being added to the game at their  preferred difficulty. 

Right. If someone doesn't like resource management, organizing DA:I around resource management will make the game worse for him. .

True, but the opposite is also true when it come to marginalizing resource management.