1109 réponses à ce sujet

[AngryFrozenWater]

So far I didn't see much health regeneration in DA during battle. There was some, but not enough to speak of. Of course you got your health back after battle. And if now that requires a potion or a healer then I hope merchants have plenty in stock or you can make your own or that you have taken a healer with you.

[PsychoBlonde]

John Epler wrote...

Personally, I dig it. One of the things that always drew me to the STALKER games (take a shot) is the feeling of going on expeditions out into the uncharted wastelands. You had your stash, and you'd take what you thought you might need - and hope that was enough. It made for some excellent emergent storytelling and kept things interesting, even in the earlier areas.

I'm one of those who dislikes regenerating health, but I think I should mention one thing:

The biggest, most important mechanical component of fights in a game without regenerating health is that you MUST allow the player to, in some effect, DETERMINE HOW BIG OF A FIGHT THEY WANT.  There MUST be pulling/disengaging/sniping/kiting/choke points/crowd control/whatever mechanics because the devs simply cannot predict what kind of resource situation the player may be looking at in any given moment.

Origins had those mechanics to some extent, but DA2 did NOT.  If you put us in the game with no health regen, you CANNOT design fights where we walk out into the middle of a big single-room arena and are surrounded by enemies in a cut scene and subsequently have NO choice but to fight 15 enemies ALL AT ONCE.  No health regen means, unequivocally, that there have to be methods in place whereby you can minimize the ability of attackers to get at you and inflict damage.

WITH those methods, no health regen becomes an opportunity for more fun as you cleverly figure out a way to get past an "unwinnable" situation by, say, lobbing AOE spells around a corner or kiting the dragon around the central pillar or pulling mobs one at a time.  Without them, it's just an annoyance.

(That's not to say you can't have big set-piece combats like that, you just have to put a big cache of resources before the fight.  Then, at least, you can aim for a certain set minimum.)

And I understand the problems of people who don't enjoy playing the game like an accountant, always trying to maximize their resource balance.  This can be tedious (although I enjoy it myself).  So on behalf of those people I'd certainly appreciate it if there were methods of improving your current resource situation that DIDN'T necessarily involve inventory management.  

You could even tie this into the story in some way.  Maybe you have your party mage pull out all the stops on the blood magic and summons a demon that decimates your foes--but then you have to fight the demon.  This would basically turn a difficult multi-foe combat into a different type of single-foe combat.  Maybe your reaver goes totally berserk but winds up with so many injuries they're basically useless in combat until you can return to base.  Maybe your templar OD's on Lyrium, putting their abilities into overdrive but resulting in bizarre confused behavior until you get back to base and they can detox. Maybe your spirit healer burns themselves out to fully heal the party, but they can't regain mana until you get back to base .  Maybe your Assassin rigs a bomb that drops the ceiling on the enemies but also hopelessly buries their loot.  Maybe your Shadow figures a way for you to sneak from point A to point B, bypassing some enemies but also putting you in a position where you may have to either fight or bypass them on your way back.

Basically, all these abilities would allow for a cornered party to have the opportunity to get back to base to recharge even if they were otherwise overwhelmed, and the best part is that they would tie into your character class.  There wouldn't be any inventory management involved, just trade-offs of various kinds.

If you are instead looking to have no trade-offs whatsoever, I don't really know what to say.  I find games without trade-offs to be boring in the extreme.

[Fast Jimmy]

You could even tie this into the story in some way. Maybe you have your party mage pull out all the stops on the blood magic and summons a demon that decimates your foes--but then you have to fight the demon. This would basically turn a difficult multi-foe combat into a different type of single-foe combat. Maybe your reaver goes totally berserk but winds up with so many injuries they're basically useless in combat until you can return to base. Maybe your templar OD's on Lyrium, putting their abilities into overdrive but resulting in bizarre confused behavior until you get back to base and they can detox. Maybe your spirit healer burns themselves out to fully heal the party, but they can't regain mana until you get back to base . Maybe your Assassin rigs a bomb that drops the ceiling on the enemies but also hopelessly buries their loot. Maybe your Shadow figures a way for you to sneak from point A to point B, bypassing some enemies but also putting you in a position where you may have to either fight or bypass them on your way back.

This could be cool. If these abilities were triggered based on something like all other companions being down and the "last man standing" having health run on fumes, this could even prevent the standard Game Over screen, but simply just include a nuclear option that would win a fight, but would come at a cost to that character that would need to be fixed.

Novel idea.

[Realmzmaster]

The basic pint between no health regen and health regen comes down to encounter design. I agree with Fast Jimmy. With Health regen you have to design each encounter so that it is challenging to the party for that one particular fight. The encounter has to be challenging enough to have the ability to take the party out, because after the encounter if the party wins the party has regain all of its health and injuries are trivial in both DAO and DA2. Use an Injury kit and back to full health. That means an enemy or enemies that have very large health bars (like the Arishok) or there are multiple waves of enemies that try to overwhelm the party with sheer numbers trying to do do enough damage to cause a full party wipe.

Non-health regen does not require the encounters to be like that, because even a small party of mooks or a pack of wolves can be dangerous if the party is not at full strength.
Resting was one of the mechanics used in earlier crpgs to regain health along with healing spells. Those earlier games also had random encounters so while resting the party could be attacked and would have to defend themselves in a weaken state.
With health and mana regen the party is never in a weaken state at the beginning of a fight.

Crpgs like DAO and DA2 affect how I roleplay my character and party. These crpgs have taken out the need to eat, drink, or sleep. The party can carry an incredible amount of inventory. There is an endless supply of ammo. Weather has no effect on combat. The party can wear plate armor in the desert or in freezing cold. There is no chance of starvation, poisoning or serious injury that can incapacitate a party member. All the points I enjoyed about crpgs were basically stripped out.
An encounter with wolves becomes a walk in the park because the party is always at full strength.

I see a lot of posters wanting realistic visual effects but not the realism that goes with it. I want the realism that goes with it within the context of the game world. Within the context of the game world I have to accept magic,elves, dwarves etc.

I do not have to accept unlimited ammo, or the lack of need to eat, drink or sleep, carry large inventory, able to wear the same armor in any climate without any explanation of why it exists.

I understand why other gamer see this is tedium depending on their playstyle.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 09 août 2013 - 06:01 .

[philippe willaume]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

How does the Arishok fight relate to health regeneration out of combat? Aren't these entirely separate issues?

DA:O had health regeneration but you seem to like that game?

I did like DA:O. That doesn't mean I loved every single possible feature in DA:O. Auto-regen being one of them.

I mention the Arishok fight for two reasons. Primarily, because DA2 had a design I didn't like (enemy fights with giant HP pools) and by dropping it down to Casual, I was able to better to stomach some of these designs. Which is what I suggested to those who want to go through each fight without having to worry about health do in DA:I.

But since you've brought it up, the Arishok fight is the embodiment of why health regen is a mechanic I do not like. In DA2, there were two fundamental problems with enemy design - namely, HP size and waves. Both are ways to prolong fights and add more challenge. The reason they needed to make fights longer/throw more enemies at you was that the only way to fail is if the game was able to take you from all companions at 100% health to all companions at 0% health. That was literally, the only way for the player to die.

To do so, each fight needed to legitimately get you to go through every healing cool down (potion and spell), as well as take your health down to zero. The ways to do that are to have crazy resilient enemies that are never ending (HP bloat and countless waves) and/or to have over powered enemy attacks capable of wiping out a character insanely quickly.

While most of DA2 was the former, the Arishok was both the former AND the latter. That impale move that could take down even the most robust health bar to nearly zero and could be performed nearly anytime the player got within spitting distance of the Arishok, so it wasn't even a limited move or one done only once a fight.


All that aside... lower difficulty levels can help you circumvent design aspects you like. I used it in DA2, maybe some people in this thread might have to use it for DA:I. Ultimately, I find the "tedium" of resource management more engaging than kiting, so I applaud the decision.

@FJ

What you says about the DA:2 mechanism is a very valid point but i am not sure that the auto free regeneration outside combat is a cause of lack of planning.

in  DA:2 there is not that much to plan for and not that much to other than the CC to use as a plan, especially when any carefully selected location is going to be zapper to oblivion by using a talent, . As well the waves were kind
of need when playing a warrior and a rogue as easy kill/easy hit mooks are your stamina pit-stop. I do
totally agree with what the situation you describe and the fact that it does not matter if companion are getting spanked left right and centre since there are no real consequences. As well i am totally with you when you say that quick health replenishment is directly linked to cutting corner in encounter design.

so yes being careful with the companion health was not easy nor vital for the  gameplay and yes quick free heath regeneration is makes waves easier to implement. (but i think you were automatically reset to max between
waves)

However I agree with people that says fundamentally there is no difference  between automatic health regeneration and going to camp/resting/magic/potion. So  at least with health auto-regeneration you reduce the grind-annoyance factor.

It is not resource management when standing a fire camp to get healed has absolutely no consequence on the story arc and does not cost any thing other than the actual time of the player.
It is just a like automatic health regeneration with a boring bit added.

Provided  that you have the instrument to effectively take care of your companion in combat, health loss should have more drastic consequences than burning up a potion or force an RTB.
I though a health management like Jagged alliance or Silent storm springs did it rather well.
basically
Hp loss has consequence in the actual combat and in the availability of the
wounded for the future engagements
IE  if the hp loss was significant enough, the companion would have a condition/injury. you can bring wounded back in effective condition for the fight  you are in (ie potion/first aid) but the said companion is much more vulnerable to damage during this fight and according to the condition may or may  not be available for X next adventure because they are being cared for at base camp by either a mage/healer of the group or NPC.

Phil

Modifié par philippe willaume, 09 août 2013 - 06:28 .

[Ninja Mage]

But if you have a healer you can just wait for thier mana to regen and heal everyone

[philippe willaume]

Ninja Mage wrote...

But if you have a healer you can just wait for thier mana to regen and heal everyone

If that was a comment to what i posted.
yes this is the case in both DA but that does not have to be that way.
Healing spell or potion can be more like first aid or emmergency care, that enable you to go on for a while but you would still need proper care.

Phil

[AresKeith]

Ninja Mage wrote...

But if you have a healer you can just wait for thier mana to regen and heal everyone

And lower the price of health potions, and let certain companions craft health potions

[Maria Caliban]

Ziggeh wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Previous experience with BioWare games.

I would say that all modern bioware games have shown a strong awareness of the impact of mechanics. Their decisions have not always played out well, but they've always been well founded.

And they've all featured multiple ways to heal and made them easily available.

John Epler wrote...

Every time someone suggests that we just add a toggle for a feature they aren't entirely on board with, a kitten bursts into flame.

It's the people who like lack of regen who are asking for it. They're asking for a toggle for a feature they are on board with.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 09 août 2013 - 06:48 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I'm not sure how the health mechanic affects this. In both cases, it means that if you've bit off more than you can chew, you disengage from the combat.

Did you just say we can disengage from combat in DA I?

Yes, did you?  Can we disengage from combat?

That would be HUGE news.

[MerinTB]

TMJfin wrote...

John Epler wrote...

Every time someone suggests that we just add a toggle for a feature they aren't entirely on board with, a kitten bursts into flame.

I don't actually like cats (allergic, can't breath around them) so toggle toggle toggle toggle, toggle everything!

This.

If we ask for toggles enough, will that asinine Caturday pap be wiped from the internet forever?

toggletoggletoggletoggletoggle

Can we get a toggle that changes the name of the developer on the game from BioWare to EA?

Can we get a toggle that sets god mode on?

Can we get a toggle to turn on toggles?

:innocent:

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...
I'm
not sure how the health mechanic affects this. In both cases, it means
that if you've bit off more than you can chew, you disengage from the
combat.

Did you just say we can disengage from combat in DA I?

Yes, did you?  Can we disengage from combat?
That would be HUGE news.

Good catch, guys!

Modifié par MerinTB, 09 août 2013 - 06:51 .

[Realmzmaster]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I'm not sure how the health mechanic affects this. In both cases, it means that if you've bit off more than you can chew, you disengage from the combat.

Did you just say we can disengage from combat in DA I?

Yes, did you?  Can we disengage from combat?

That would be HUGE news.

That is huge news. Does that mean the party will be able to flee and leave unconcious companions behind? Or does it mean that the standing party members gather up the unconcious and make a break for it? Will the enemy be able to follow the party and re-engage unless the party out distances the enemy?

[Ziggeh]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Yes, did you?  Can we disengage from combat?

That would be HUGE news.

I don't see how they could not if they plan to have mobs that you literally can't fight at your current level.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Or, to really throw out a crazy idea, could it be something even more abstract than that? Recall the Storm of Zehir overland map, where enemies, once spotted, can be evaded under some circumstances.

It could be that we can't escape combat once it has properly begun, but we can perhaps flee prior to full engagement.

[Maria Caliban]

It's a giant dragon that will ignore you if you hit it and then run twenty feet from its spawn point.

[Nerevar-as]

AresKeith wrote...

Ninja Mage wrote...

But if you have a healer you can just wait for thier mana to regen and heal everyone

And lower the price of health potions, and let certain companions craft health potions

Actually, I´d bar crafting to working/alchemy benches, ala Fallout NV or Kotor 2... having crafting depending on the other skills was a great idea too.

[Ziggeh]

Maria Caliban wrote...

And they've all featured multiple ways to heal and made them easily available.

They've also, unless I'm mistaken, all featured auto-regen.

[Maria Caliban]

Ziggeh wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

And they've all featured multiple ways to heal and made them easily available.

They've also, unless I'm mistaken, all featured auto-regen.

I don't recall ME having automatic health regen. Am I mistaken? Knights of the Old Republic had force regen but not health.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 09 août 2013 - 07:04 .

[Ziggeh]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Or, to really throw out a crazy idea, could it be something even more abstract than that? Recall the Storm of Zehir overland map, where enemies, once spotted, can be evaded under some circumstances.

It could be that we can't escape combat once it has properly begun, but we can perhaps flee prior to full engagement.

True, it could be something as simple as a confirmation, "are you sure you want to get into this?"

But I still think that part of the value of having such mobs is trying them out while underpowered, a whole risk/reward thing, and making the only results of such a choice succeed or reload seems flawed. But I suppose the case could be made that this could have problematic consequences elsewhere.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Ziggeh wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

And they've all featured multiple ways to heal and made them easily available.

They've also, unless I'm mistaken, all featured auto-regen.

It depends how far back you go when counting "modern" games.

Did Jade Empire have regenerating health?  KotOR and NWN didn't, so JE would be the first if it did.  If not JE, then the first was Mass Effect (but then the set of "modern" games is limited to ME and DA titles).

[Sylvius the Mad]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I don't recall ME having automatic health regen. Am I mistaken? Knights of the Old Republic had force regen but not health.

It is a bit hard to tell, since shields and armour auto-regenerated.  I think health did, but I don't strictly remember.

[Ziggeh]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I don't recall ME having automatic health regen. Am I mistaken?

It had shields, which is a semantic distinction. They're functionally identical. Though I appreciate they had both to provide two sets of management.

Within that non regening health mind, on a mission by mission basis you only had one source of healing that was of a finite, limited supply.