1109 réponses à ce sujet

[Realmzmaster]

Nerevar-as wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Ninja Mage wrote...

But if you have a healer you can just wait for thier mana to regen and heal everyone

And lower the price of health potions, and let certain companions craft health potions

Actually, I´d bar crafting to working/alchemy benches, ala Fallout NV or Kotor 2... having crafting depending on the other skills was a great idea too.

Actually all crafting in Fallout:NV was not confined to workbenches depending on what companion was traveling with the Courier.

[Mercedes-Benz]

If this really turns out to be the case, then I hope that there will be items (like an magical amulet for example) that regenerate health and that the heal and group heal powers for mages will be in the game, even though they could just disable the no health regeneration feature for those who play the game on the easy setting.

Modifié par Mercedes-Benz, 09 août 2013 - 08:21 .

[Realmzmaster]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

And they've all featured multiple ways to heal and made them easily available.

They've also, unless I'm mistaken, all featured auto-regen.

It depends how far back you go when counting "modern" games.

Did Jade Empire have regenerating health?  KotOR and NWN didn't, so JE would be the first if it did.  If not JE, then the first was Mass Effect (but then the set of "modern" games is limited to ME and DA titles).

Jade Empire did not have regenerating health, but the PC could use Chi to heal or receive health power ups during combat. Chi could also be used outside of combat to heal as I recall.

[Realmzmaster]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

But Chi did regenerate so health regenerated as well for all practical purposes.

True, but the PC had to expend the Chi to heal so there is an opportunity cost to healing. Expanding Chi to heal in battle meant that it could not be used for other actions like boosting style or power transformation and magic attacks.

[Nerevar-as]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

True, but the PC had to expend the Chi to heal so there is an opportunity cost to healing. Expanding Chi to heal in battle meant that it could not be used for other actions like boosting style or power transformation and magic attacks.

Could you use Chi to heal from the getgo? Or did you have to select a particular ability when leveling?

Get go from what I remember. Chi was for everything save using weapons, resulting in Dawn Star being probably the most useful support companion (guess what she did).

[Sylvius the Mad]

EntropicAngel wrote...

There's no way to avoid that fight. It must happen for the plot, a least in that area, to procede.

I think that's what Sylvius is suggesting, a way to avoid fights. DA:O was too linear for that.

I was thinking of avoiding them as a specific act of avoidance.  Not necessarily avoiding that fight forever.

[karushna5]

I have to disagree that No Health Regen is not connected to difficulty.
A game with health regen, can have really hard fights, but they would be nearly impossible with no health regen and fighting several before that. A great player can win eventually, dying a bit more, many casual players won't be able to finish.

To make no health regen work, every fight including bosses would have to be easier than something that could kill you. For example The Rock Wraith in DAII if as difficult would have lost a lot of gamers, who would have given up the game in exhaustion. To make it work for people who aren't as good but do enjoy the combat and stories, you can't just make the Rock Wraith as easy as it was on easy, you would have to make it much easier.

Because No Health Regen does make it harder. Especially if we can't spam potions and mana is also no regen. It means we can't heal between fights, and fighting an enemy with low health makes it harder. I am not trying to be belligerent but I am having difficulty seeing how dying more and having to be more tactical to succeed doesn't make it harder.

Which is great for the hard core gamers. They have been wanting this, and they should get it, but other gamers(who often enjoy the combat as well as the stories, just not great at the former) should either get plenty of alternatives, regenerating mana, spamming potions, Or easy mode should turn the monsters lower than just easy. Can't just be easy Rock Wraith, has to be a Rock Wraith that we can beat at half health.

personally, and I understand this is an opinion. I don't like attrition games, they are very frustrating and to me they are similiar to fetch quests. And are just so much inventory, when I just want to play the game, and making the inventory management and always worrying what I have had and haven't can be very fun for players that like it, but for most casual players, they want to kill monsters instead of getting into the minutiae, they want medium to hard fights each time, barely succeed with a sliver of life(or barely fail with that sliver) and go on to the next battle.

In a way it is like Witcher 2 combat, have to think ahead, and your potions matter more than actually fighting sometimes. Witcher2 was a very successful game, but many people found the combat annoying. It is similiar that everyone wants to fight. But not everyone wants to catalog it the way there. None of the fights can be challenging of themselves, which is a bit of a let down. Because if they can almost beat you with full health, they will certainly beat you with a Quarter health.

I am saying this because everyone seems to say it has nothing to deal with difficulty. It does. As Allan said, he would die more if that hard game had no Health regen. For him it wouldn't be enough that he couldn't win eventually, or he'd quit, someone with less skill, that would be the outcome.

Also even people great at games, having to worry about every little thing in combat is less fun than having bosses that you each have your full arsenal and being able to pull out the stops for some players. The thing is this is a radically different play style, and it makes sense that many people would not enjoy it since it is such a different thing than they have grown used to enjoying.

It is very similiar to be an orange seller for 2 years and then selling apples. Many people love apples, or miss them, but also many people miss your oranges, love oranges, or even hate apples. It is a major change in play style and sadly you will always have people who can't like both. It's understandable on both sides, but it is a hard line to walk.

[DarthLaxian]

Northern Sun wrote...

Not a fan of this particular change. I don't look forward to the inevitable time when I get hit by something unexpected in a dungeon then have to either limp back to the nearest town and go back to buy potions and go back or reload a previous save and buy more potions.

agreed - even more as healing magic should set you right (in my head everyone is healed up after a fight anyway, so why make such a clumsy mechanic that slows you down (i dislike this because it just slows you down without adding content etc.))

greetings LAX

[Realmzmaster]

karushna5 wrote...

I am saying this because everyone seems to say it has nothing to deal with difficulty. It does. As Allan said, he would die more if that hard game had no Health regen. For him it wouldn't be enough that he couldn't win eventually, or he'd quit, someone with less skill, that would be the outcome.

Also even people great at games, having to worry about every little thing in combat is less fun than having bosses that you each have your full arsenal and being able to pull out the stops for some players. The thing is this is a radically different play style, and it makes sense that many people would not enjoy it since it is such a different thing than they have grown used to enjoying.

No it is not a radically different playstyle for me. DAO and DA2 were radically different from the playstyle I had grown to love. That playstyle was taken away with DAO and DA2. I grew up with Wizardry, Ultima, Might & Magic, BG1 and BG2, NWN, NWN2, IWD 1 and 2, , TOEE (Temple of Elemental Evil), Pool of Radiance Myth Drannor, SSI Gold box game series, Bard's Tale I,II,III and others.

Bioware stripped out my playstyle from DAO and DA2 when it was present in their other games like BG1, BG2 and NWN.
I like having to worry about every little thing in combat. I like resource management. That is fun for me. I would not have less fun but more.
So for me and other posters in this thread it is going back to see an old friend that has been missing for a few years.

[Realmzmaster]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Get go from what I remember. Chi was for everything save using weapons, resulting in Dawn Star being probably the most useful support companion (guess what she did).

If that's really so, if truly anyone could use Chi to heal, without any upgrade needed, and if Chi regenerated, which has been stated in this thread, then I would argue that for all intents and purposes JE had health regen.

Not so with KotOR, where you had to "buy" the ability.

You still basically had to buy healing in JE because the character had to expend chi in or out of combat that could have been used to power something else. There is still an opportunity cost. Health regen in DAO and DA2 had no opportunity cost.

[Allan Schumacher]

As I have said previously, as long as it is very hard for a person to paint themselves into a corner in this regard i am fine with it. You can't let the player get in a spot where they have saved the game and not realized they were about to be in a really bad spot resource wise and have to go back hours and hours for a save long ago.

This would definitely be my top concern as well.

[AresKeith]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

As I have said previously, as long as it is very hard for a person to paint themselves into a corner in this regard i am fine with it. You can't let the player get in a spot where they have saved the game and not realized they were about to be in a really bad spot resource wise and have to go back hours and hours for a save long ago.

This would definitely be my top concern as well.

Well it's a good thing I save often 

[Realmzmaster]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

You still basically had to buy healing in JE because the character had to expend chi in or out of combat that could have been used to power something else. There is still an opportunity cost. Health regen in DAO and DA2 had no opportunity cost.

First off, I'm talking about out-of-combat. In-combat healing wasn't a factor of DA ][, and wasn't all that much in DA:O. It's about being able to heal AFTER a battle--before the next one.

And, there IS no cost when the Chi regenerates. If it costs 10 Chi to get 25 HP, I just do it a couple of times and wait until the Chi has regenerated, and now I have full health and full Chi. Out of combat, it doesn't have to have any cost.

Which is no different that casting a healing spell to achieve the same effect out side of combat, but most will not call that health regen. Expending Chi is like casting the healing spell. Health regen requires no extra effort on the part of the character like in DAO and DA2. So no it is not the same.
For example Suppose you expend the Chi out of combat to heal and then are faced with another battle. Unless the character waits around for Chi to reach full then that character goes into battle with full health but less Chi so a cost has been paid, because as I stated before certain attacks can then not be powered to their full potential.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 09 août 2013 - 10:07 .

[Nerevar-as]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

As I have said previously, as long as it is very hard for a person to paint themselves into a corner in this regard i am fine with it. You can't let the player get in a spot where they have saved the game and not realized they were about to be in a really bad spot resource wise and have to go back hours and hours for a save long ago.

This would definitely be my top concern as well.

No hardcore mode then?

[Allan Schumacher]

I have to disagree that No Health Regen is not connected to difficulty.
A game with health regen, can have really hard fights, but they would be nearly impossible with no health regen and fighting several before that. A great player can win eventually, dying a bit more, many casual players won't be able to finish

This is true, but the point I was making is that "If you have a game with health regen, you can design things differently."

That is, a game with health regen doesn't need to be easy. Yes, if you take the exact same game and remove health regen, it will be harder, but if the game doesn't have health regenerating health, the encounters may be designed differently to accommodate that.


EDIT: In retrospect you seem to be saying the same thing upon further reading your post >.>

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 09 août 2013 - 10:11 .

[Realmzmaster]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Which is no different that casting a healing spell to achieve the same effect out side of combat, but most will not call that health regen. Expending Chi is like casting the healing spell. Health regen requires no extra effort on the part of the character like in DAO and DA2. So no it is not the same.
For example Suppose you expend the Chi out of combat to heal and then are faced with another battle. Unless the character waits around for Chi to reach full then that character goes into battle with full health but less Chi so a cost has been paid, because as I stated before certain attacks can then not be powered to their full potential.

You make a choice whether to wait around for Chi to refill or not. It's a decision you make. It's entirely possible for their to be no cost at all.

I'm not saying it's identical to health regen. I'm saying that as far as the actual mechanics go, it works as a helth regen method. It doesn't cost the player anything unless they choose for there to be a cost.

The minute you wait around a cost has been paid in time. DAO and DA2 has no cost not even in time that is the difference especially when some posters are complaining about having to wait. Also that is time that could be spent moving foward in the game.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 09 août 2013 - 10:14 .

[The Hierophant]

Wouldn't there be workarounds for no auto regen after battle like unlocking passive abilities, and armor enchantments, or is auto regen completely scrapped?

[Nerevar-as]

The Hierophant wrote...

Wouldn't there be workarounds for no auto regen after battle like unlocking passive abilities, and armor enchantments, or is auto regen completely scrapped?

Some of the Avernum games had a skill that determined how much health and MP you got back after each combat. Otherwise it was potions or going into cities.