1109 réponses à ce sujet

[Enigmatick]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

I didn't know "glancing blows" was even a thing. Probably because I've never played a Warrior--unless that happens for rogues, too.

DA2 doesn't have misses.  Every attack is either a hit or a glancing blow.  Melee friendly fire was always glancing blows.

However, how much damage a glancing blow did was affected by the difficulty setting.  On Nightmare (where there was friendly fire) glancing blows did only 10% damage.  But on Normal, they did 50% damage.  As such, melee friendly fire on Normal was vastly more dangerous than melee friendly fire on Nightmare.

Wait what? I thought DA2 only had Friendly Fire on Nightmare?

[Blessed Silence]

Northern Sun wrote...

Not a fan of this particular change. I don't look forward to the inevitable time when I get hit by something unexpected in a dungeon then have to either limp back to the nearest town and go back to buy potions and go back or reload a previous save and buy more potions.

Thing is this is what I am used to in the hard old games.  No sitting behind a rock twiddling your thumbs waiting for health to come back.  I like the challenge to make me be careful.

[Kommunicating]

I actually like this.
It'll make it that much harder and that much more fun.

[AlanC9]

Realmzmaster wrote...
No Bioware did strip out the elements I like when moving from BG and NWN
to DA. Bioware positioned DA as the spiritual successor to BG as the
good doctors put it. It was not the spiritual successor in that it
adopted what many would call MMO concepts which was a departure from
what came before.
Yes, there was lots of discussion and many threads on the subject before DAO came out. So I ended up having to live with it.

I asked this before, but how did NWN have the elements you like while DAO didn't?

[Fast Jimmy]

Enigmatick wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

I didn't know "glancing blows" was even a thing. Probably because I've never played a Warrior--unless that happens for rogues, too.

DA2 doesn't have misses.  Every attack is either a hit or a glancing blow.  Melee friendly fire was always glancing blows.

However, how much damage a glancing blow did was affected by the difficulty setting.  On Nightmare (where there was friendly fire) glancing blows did only 10% damage.  But on Normal, they did 50% damage.  As such, melee friendly fire on Normal was vastly more dangerous than melee friendly fire on Nightmare.

Wait what? I thought DA2 only had Friendly Fire on Nightmare?

I think Sylvius was possibly playing with some mods. 

[AlanC9]

Enigmatick wrote...
Wait what? I thought DA2 only had Friendly Fire on Nightmare?

He modded it. Didn't quite work out.

Modifié par AlanC9, 10 août 2013 - 12:44 .

[Maria Caliban]

Filament wrote...

I do think it seems exceedingly likely that disengagement on the "open" world will be possible. I can't imagine how it would be otherwise.

Morrowind. Cliff Racers would chase you from the Red Mountain to the coast if you weren't fast enough.

[Am1vf]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Filament wrote...

I do think it seems exceedingly likely that disengagement on the "open" world will be possible. I can't imagine how it would be otherwise.

Morrowind. Cliff Racers would chase you from the Red Mountain to the coast if you weren't fast enough.

I hated those things.

[AlanC9]

NWN OC if you didn't use the Stone of Recall.

Can you use the overland map in DAO during combat?

[legbamel]

karushna5 wrote...
[snip]Because No Health Regen does make it harder. Especially if we can't spam potions and mana is also no regen. It means we can't heal between fights, and fighting an enemy with low health makes it harder. I am not trying to be belligerent but I am having difficulty seeing how dying more and having to be more tactical to succeed doesn't make it harder.

Which is great for the hard core gamers. They have been wanting this, and they should get it, but other gamers(who often enjoy the combat as well as the stories, just not great at the former) should either get plenty of alternatives, regenerating mana, spamming potions, Or easy mode should turn the monsters lower than just easy. Can't just be easy Rock Wraith, has to be a Rock Wraith that we can beat at half health.

personally, and I understand this is an opinion. I don't like attrition games, they are very frustrating and to me they are similiar to fetch quests. And are just so much inventory, when I just want to play the game, and making the inventory management and always worrying what I have had and haven't can be very fun for players that like it, but for most casual players, they want to kill monsters instead of getting into the minutiae, they want medium to hard fights each time, barely succeed with a sliver of life(or barely fail with that sliver) and go on to the next battle.[snip]

This was my knee-jerk reaction: if you're going to make easy difficulties "easy" with no regen it'll either be tedious in the extreme or the combat is going to be crap.  I'd love a middle ground: make health, mana, and stamina regen slowly, rather than not at all, and fill in around the edges with abilities that restore you in some way.

Perhaps you regain a certain amount of health when using a certain ability, at a stamina cost.  Perhaps a crit with a spell can give you pack a portion of the mana cost.  Perhaps you can cast an HoT on your whole party at a hefty mana cost.  I have no problem with potion cool-downs for situations like this and I find them tactial in that they require you to decide which you need more, the offensive capabilities or the health/mana.

I'm just not that into micromanaging what's in my luggage.  I'd rather worry about combat trade-offs than inventory.  I'm also more than happy to toodle around the map exploring while I regen (obviously risking a chance encounter) than be forced to button-mash or "camp" through a couple of load screens.

I don't hate all games with no health regen, I just like that Dragon Age has always had it, to one extent or another.   I'll happily grant you that insta-health was over the top and didn't help DA2.  I don't understand why, when there are plenty of other places you can have that play style, people seem so adamant that it belongs here, too, and advocate for more and more ways to limit people's ability to heal themselves between encounters so they can actually finish a dungeon and beat the boss without backtracking and wasting the time that a person can commit to playing a game.  Frankly, seeing some of these decreasing-effectiveness and otherwise punishing strategies implemented would remove DA from my "must-buy" list.

All of that long-winded blather said, I am intrigued by the "nuke it from orbit" option, if it is limited and does incur some penalty to combat unless you're willing to pay a different price.  I don't know that I would want it to be "insta-win" on boss fights, though.  I foresee an awful lot of people using it and then complaining that boss fights are too easy. 

ETA: Providing methods for picking off enemies before combat actually begins also intrigues me, through sniping, pre-emptive AOEs, or really effective CC that holds the more-dangerous foes while you mop up the trash.

Modifié par legbamel, 10 août 2013 - 01:44 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Filament wrote...

I do think it seems exceedingly likely that disengagement on the "open" world will be possible. I can't imagine how it would be otherwise.

Morrowind. Cliff Racers would chase you from the Red Mountain to the coast if you weren't fast enough.

Ugh. Cliff Racers. I had almost I had forgotten my back order of PTSD bills I need to charge to Bethesda. 

[Realmzmaster]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Actually both the health and mana levels in DAO rengerated automatically. So the player could continue to explore while the meters click upward which happened every few seconds more so if you have armor or other equipment that boosted life or mana regen (like Lifegiver) . The party runs the risk of an encounter with lower health and mana (paying an opportunity cost that way or not).

If the player wanted to wait until the meters were full  for both the player could (paying the opportunity cost in time) or the player could wait until the Mana meter was sufficient to cast the healing spell to restore full health and then let mana continue to regenerate (paying the opportunity cost in Mana).

 Both health and mana regenerated in DAO. In Jade Empire only Chi regenerated.

The opportunity cost can be lessened in Jade Empire as in DAO by waiting until a sufficient amount of Chi was present to heal, but health itself did not regenerate like in DAO.

DA2 eliminated the need for any of it.

I'm saying it's equivalent to health regening like in DA:O, because both games have the time cost. For JE you may be waiting on Chi to recharge instead of helth itself, but both have a time cost.

But I don't think we're really going anywhere here.

Last thought on the matter. The difference between DAO and JE is that DAO has health regen. If you do nothing in DAO to heal the character the health bar will eventually reach full through regeneration. In JE it will never change unless the character actively engages in healing by using CHI or a potion. Because JE has no automatic health regeneration.

[Sidney]

Blessed Silence wrote...

Northern Sun wrote...

Not a fan of this particular change. I don't look forward to the inevitable time when I get hit by something unexpected in a dungeon then have to either limp back to the nearest town and go back to buy potions and go back or reload a previous save and buy more potions.

Thing is this is what I am used to in the hard old games.  No sitting behind a rock twiddling your thumbs waiting for health to come back.  I like the challenge to make me be careful.

No it really doesn't. That is the problem. Again, you can't not get hit in combat. The combat system just doesn't work that way. You will take damage so unless they radically revist dungeon design and become less of a long crawl you will attrit down over time no matter how good you are.

Having non-regen doesn't make the game any harder. In BG2 all it meant was that you had the rest. I guess that means hitting an extra key which is "harder". Unless they change the economics of DAI in both other games I was swimming in health potions so instead of waiting for a health bar to refill it just means drinking health potoions which becomes a sub for time. Also, unless you end mana regen (which would be even worse) then you are sitting waiting for the blue to refil so you can refil the red bar with healing spells.

Permadeth makes the games more demanding anything short of that just makes the game more annoying.

[Sidney]

Realmzmaster wrote...
Last thought on the matter. The difference between DAO and JE is that DAO has health regen. If you do nothing in DAO to heal the character the health bar will eventually reach full through regeneration. In JE it will never change unless the character actively engages in healing by using CHI or a potion. Because JE has no automatic health regeneration.

Was playing JE last night - wish there was a 2 to that - and really red refilling doesn't matter because refilling blue allows you to refil red therefore the distinction became pointless.

[Realmzmaster]

AlanC9 wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...
No Bioware did strip out the elements I like when moving from BG and NWN
to DA. Bioware positioned DA as the spiritual successor to BG as the
good doctors put it. It was not the spiritual successor in that it
adopted what many would call MMO concepts which was a departure from
what came before.
Yes, there was lots of discussion and many threads on the subject before DAO came out. So I ended up having to live with it.

I asked this before, but how did NWN have the elements you like while DAO didn't?

For one my character was able to break open chest and doors in NWN. You could right click and a menu would appear with bash as a choice. A character could also invest in the Open Lock skill. As a mage I had Knock as an option. I could rest anywhere in NWN by setting up camp and be randomly attack by the enemy. In DAO the only way to rest is to go back to camp. The party could not set up camp in the Deep Roads nor use any of the enemy camps.

In NWN I could actually be a Monk and use bare handed techniques. There was weapon specialization and blacksmithing skill. The character could mend armor and weapons. Getting injured in NWN had actual consequences like blindness, poisoning , deafness, diseased, or silenced and the actual onset of the injury may not be immediate. A poisoned character could die in his/her sleep.

The problem I had with NWN is that there was no perma-death. You simply ended up at a temple of healing and lost a little gold and some experience. You then simply entered the return portal and was back where you left off.
No real consequence to dying.

In BG1 and BG2 the character was dead if hit points reached zero or below. You simply watched as the PC's hand turned skeletal. If a companion died he/she was dead unless you could afford resurrection from a healer, found a resurrection scroll  or had a cleric high enough to cast resurrection spell.

Planning was essential for damage mitigation to avoid death of companions. It required a different way of approaching the game than did DAO.
That is just some points off the top of my head.

[Realmzmaster]

Sidney wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...
Last thought on the matter. The difference between DAO and JE is that DAO has health regen. If you do nothing in DAO to heal the character the health bar will eventually reach full through regeneration. In JE it will never change unless the character actively engages in healing by using CHI or a potion. Because JE has no automatic health regeneration.

Was playing JE last night - wish there was a 2 to that - and really red refilling doesn't matter because refilling blue allows you to refil red therefore the distinction became pointless.

That may be true but the distinction is still there, because I can stand around in DAO and red will refill. I cannot do that in JE red will never change unless I use blue.

[Maria Caliban]

I always thought it was funny that if the Bhaalspawn died, none of the companions would resurrect her.

[draken-heart]

I am strangely somewhat okay with no health regen, if a little wary.

[Realmzmaster]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I always thought it was funny that if the Bhaalspawn died, none of the companions would resurrect her.

Jaheria felt the party needed better leadership.

[AlanC9]

Sidney wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...
Last thought on the matter. The difference between DAO and JE is that DAO has health regen. If you do nothing in DAO to heal the character the health bar will eventually reach full through regeneration. In JE it will never change unless the character actively engages in healing by using CHI or a potion. Because JE has no automatic health regeneration.

Was playing JE last night - wish there was a 2 to that - and really red refilling doesn't matter because refilling blue allows you to refil red therefore the distinction became pointless.

Like KotOR as soon as you have healing, right? Trading Force for Health.

I agree. That's no difference. Or rather, it is a difference, but the difference is busywork for the player.

Modifié par AlanC9, 10 août 2013 - 04:03 .

[Vilegrim]

John Epler wrote...

Every time someone suggests that we just add a toggle for a feature they aren't entirely on board with, a kitten bursts into flame.

Cool! Less cats in the world can never be a bad thing.

[Fast Jimmy]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I always thought it was funny that if the Bhaalspawn died, none of the companions would resurrect her.

They could have made some contrivance that if you died, your soul was immediately claimed by Cyric in an attempt to recover the lost Bhaalspawn souls... that is, if they hadn't revealed Imoen as a Bhaalspawn as well and allowed her to be resurrected. So yeah - I got nothing. 

[philippe willaume]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Sidney wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...
Last thought on the matter. The difference between DAO and JE is that DAO has health regen. If you do nothing in DAO to heal the character the health bar will eventually reach full through regeneration. In JE it will never change unless the character actively engages in healing by using CHI or a potion. Because JE has no automatic health regeneration.

Was playing JE last night - wish there was a 2 to that - and really red refilling doesn't matter because refilling blue allows you to refil red therefore the distinction became pointless.

That may be true but the distinction is still there, because I can stand around in DAO and red will refill. I cannot do that in JE red will never change unless I use blue.

I am not sure i understand,
De-facto
it is not the same thing with an extra-step.but the purpose and effect of the process remains the same. it is just as bad to have automatic health regen in combat and having unlimited healing spell. I mean the problem with heath
regeneration in combat only happens when it is only the player party that can do it, which makes hiding, Kitting trumps to planning.

I am
not a super fan of micro management, but i like tactical planning hence I like health regeneration outside combat.

in DA:0 you could plan an encounter in advance to  mitigate damage taken and maximize damage output. you did not have to if you did not want to but it was there.
I totally agree that there should be consequences for  someone for falling under 0 in battle and like you I really don’t like no consequence to death as it can be like in SWtOR where dying is actually a productive way to manage an encounter
Whilst i like heath regen outside combat, i would prefer if healing was not automatic in combat (unless gear/potion/spell) as long as we have way boost output damage through team effort (or if a single player through
using talent in specifics order to achieve a a damage boost )

phil

Modifié par philippe willaume, 10 août 2013 - 08:54 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Well I shared this thread with Mike so at the very least he's aware (he wasn't surprised, so take that how you will).

[Bleachrude]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Sidney wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...
Last thought on the matter. The difference between DAO and JE is that DAO has health regen. If you do nothing in DAO to heal the character the health bar will eventually reach full through regeneration. In JE it will never change unless the character actively engages in healing by using CHI or a potion. Because JE has no automatic health regeneration.

Was playing JE last night - wish there was a 2 to that - and really red refilling doesn't matter because refilling blue allows you to refil red therefore the distinction became pointless.

That may be true but the distinction is still there, because I can stand around in DAO and red will refill. I cannot do that in JE red will never change unless I use blue.

Er...I think there is no fundamental difference between the two. The JE system is a prime example of "busywork". Basically, the only difference is that you have to hit one key (heal) after your blue is refilled and then wait once against for it to refill...

I really hope the system in DA:I is nothing like that...