1109 réponses à ce sujet

[Fast Jimmy]

Lokiwithrope wrote...

If you don't regenerate health, do you still get up if you die in a fight? Permanent death sounds... bad.

I can't, in any reality, expect Bioware to embrace permadeath. A game where they spend hundreds of thousands, if not millions, on voice acting for companions and characters wouldn't just let them die on a random mook fight in the first hour of the game. 

The current speculation is that if you fall during a fight, you get back up, but with very little HP and possibly an injury. 

[AlanC9]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

You could do what one of the Star Wars games does and have regenerating 'fatigue' that lowers as you are 'hit.' Health itself isn't depleted until your fatigue wears out.

That would be a fantasy shield system.

Sylvius mentioned that P:E would have something similar.

I personally think it's a horrible idea. Getting slashed with a longsword should not deplete "stamina."

It's something that PnP games have used, explicitly (DragonQuest) or implicitly (D&D), since forever. It works OK.

[Olmerto]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

You could do what one of the Star Wars games does and have regenerating 'fatigue' that lowers as you are 'hit.' Health itself isn't depleted until your fatigue wears out.

That would be a fantasy shield system.

Sylvius mentioned that P:E would have something similar.

I personally think it's a horrible idea. Getting slashed with a longsword should not deplete "stamina."

I think the armor system is a viable alternative, truly viable.

From the earliest days of D&D, a character's hit point total did not reflect only physical durability, and hits did not always reflect wounds. The more HPs you added at each level, the more "heroic" you became and the excess hit points did indeed reflect a kind of "stamina" that had to be worn down before the last portion actually did reflect physical damage.

[Sylvius the Mad]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

You could do what one of the Star Wars games does and have regenerating 'fatigue' that lowers as you are 'hit.' Health itself isn't depleted until your fatigue wears out.

That would be a fantasy shield system.

Sylvius mentioned that P:E would have something similar.

I personally think it's a horrible idea. Getting slashed with a longsword should not deplete "stamina."

The point is that you're not actually getting slashed with the longsword.  You're simply expending energy not getting slashed with the longsword, until you can't anymore, and then the sword kills you.

It's nothing like a realistic modelling of how fatigue works, but it makes more sense than taking 12 sword wounds and still fighting without any decrease in effectiveness (save perhaps a shift in your risk-aversion).

[In Exile]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
I can't, in any reality, expect Bioware to embrace permadeath. A game where they spend hundreds of thousands, if not millions, on voice acting for companions and characters wouldn't just let them die on a random mook fight in the first hour of the game. 

It's the same in any game with NPC personalities. In a game like BG2, an NPC might cost less (no animations or VO), but that has to be taken into account in proportion to the actual cost of the game. I imagine an NPC is "cheaper" in a game like that, but there's still a cost. You can't have infinite NPCs. 

And the other cost of permadeath is - like with save imports - making all NPCs story tangential/irrelevant, or otherwise sacrificing game length for multiple paths. 

I personally think the real problem with permadeath is that it's too costly to make it anything other than a trivial joke. Either you have a revive mechanic, in which you get "LOL, revolving door afterlife" like Order of the Stick makes fun of (an actual world with confirmed afterlifes and the ability to revive the dead should be radically different form ours), or one NPC death = permanent and forever, and then the game has to actually take that death seriously. 

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
The point is that you're not actually getting slashed with the longsword.  You're simply expending energy not getting slashed with the longsword, until you can't anymore, and then the sword kills you.

It's nothing like a realistic modelling of how fatigue works, but it makes more sense than taking 12 sword wounds and still fighting without any decrease in effectiveness (save perhaps a shift in your risk-aversion).

How does that logic extend to arrows? Or magic, like fire? 

[Malanek]

In Exile wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
I can't, in any reality, expect Bioware to embrace permadeath. A game where they spend hundreds of thousands, if not millions, on voice acting for companions and characters wouldn't just let them die on a random mook fight in the first hour of the game. 

It's the same in any game with NPC personalities. In a game like BG2, an NPC might cost less (no animations or VO), but that has to be taken into account in proportion to the actual cost of the game. I imagine an NPC is "cheaper" in a game like that, but there's still a cost. You can't have infinite NPCs. 

And the other cost of permadeath is - like with save imports - making all NPCs story tangential/irrelevant, or otherwise sacrificing game length for multiple paths. 

I personally think the real problem with permadeath is that it's too costly to make it anything other than a trivial joke. Either you have a revive mechanic, in which you get "LOL, revolving door afterlife" like Order of the Stick makes fun of (an actual world with confirmed afterlifes and the ability to revive the dead should be radically different form ours), or one NPC death = permanent and forever, and then the game has to actually take that death seriously. 

In BG2 you had raise dead spells. I think I recall the devs saying they didn't want magic to be able to raise the dead in DA for story reasons. It removes an emotional hook from story telling if they can't have deaths outside of combat. I still wouldn't mind permanent death on insanity level. It would effectively be game over if any important party member died, but I think that is more interesting than just buffing all enemies resistances, health and damage.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

It's the same in any game with NPC personalities. In a game like BG2, an NPC might cost less (no animations or VO), but that has to be taken into account in proportion to the actual cost of the game. I imagine an NPC is "cheaper" in a game like that, but there's still a cost. You can't have infinite NPCs.

I recommend The Dark Heart of Uukrul, a game that did actually have infinite NPCs (and a game sufficiently old that it is on floppies).

Granted, the game was a pure dungeon crawl, and the NPC personalities were entirely irrelevant (since the player had exactly equal control over all party members), but the game was designed with permadeath in mind (there was resurrection, but it was unreliable) such that by the time you were 1/3 of the way through the game there was basically no chance that any of your party members were party members at the start of the game, and it was likely that none of them had even met anyone who was a party member at the start of the game.

Still, it can be done.  But not, as you say, with NPC personalities.

In Exile wrote...

How does that logic extend to arrows?

Not as well.

Or magic, like fire?

Even worse.

[AppealToReason]

My only "issue" with this is that the game would become some demon hellspawn grind of insanity.

[Eveangaline]

Mana will still regen, right?

[Zanallen]

I am still remembering my time with the Final Fantasy series or Suikoden and not seeing what the big deal is.

[Fetunche]

The big deal is that the game won't play like DA anymore, this plus the other changes mean it will be a different kind of game. The people unhappy with the lack of old school rpg game mechanics in DA and fans of BG etc may like it, fans of DA like me may not.

[The Hierophant]

Zanallen wrote...

I am still remembering my time with the Final Fantasy series or Suikoden and not seeing what the big deal is.

It's mostly players who are used to DA's freebie health regen, and auto revive system. In a lot of rpgs they're powerful skills, enchantments, or spells the player could earn in time or with some effort.

If the GI article is accurate then free health regen might render the possible environmental hazards (sandstorms) redundant.

[Zanallen]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Yeah I'm getting a Final Fantasy vibe from this as well, which is really odd.

Because the Final Fantasy games had no HP or MP regen. You used items or slept at inns. But you know that. It wasn't a terrible nuisance in those games, so I can't imagine it being a big change in DA either. We'll just have to manage our inventory slightly more or pay more attention to our tactics to ensure we don't run dry. Nothing crazy.

Hell, Suikoden was even worse. There was no health or magic regen and you had very limited use of magic with the game's pseudo Vancian system.

[xnode]

The whole mana discussion is moot, your forcing a player to carry a mage at that point in their group. I never had a mage in my groups as I am anti-magic, to me this would rune it in so many ways for me in my DA universe. Everyone enjoys the way they play DA, but I doubt we will be confined to having mages be a must, if one thing bioware has done with DA, is give you choices, even "IF" npc's say "that's horrible!" etc. the choice is there.

I am replaying dao atm and I just killed up Allistar from being king (just couldn't stand his wishy washy choices this time around) so Anora rules and wanted him dead, so be it. I love that about bioware

*sorry for typos, late atm here

Modifié par xnode, 14 août 2013 - 10:20 .

[Zanallen]

xnode wrote...

The whole mana discussion is moot, your forcing a player to carry a mage at that point in their group. I never had a mage in my groups as I am anti-magic, to me this would rune it in so many ways for me in my DA universe. Everyone enjoys the way they play DA, but I doubt we will be confined to having mages be a must, if one thing bioware has done with DA, is give you choices, even "IF" npc's say "that's horrible!" etc. the choice is there.

I am replaying dao atm and I just killed up Allistar from being king (just couldn't stand his wishy washy choices this time around) so Anora rules and wanted him dead, so be it. I love that about bioware

*sorry for typos, late atm here

You still won't need a mage. You might have to take combat a little more seriously and pay more attention to your tactics and inventory management, but that is the case in DA2 as well if you don't take a mage due to the potion cooldown. Though, this makes me wonder if they are going to remove the cooldown in DA:I to allow for spamming. If not, it does make not having a mage difficult.

[Wulfram]

The Hierophant wrote...

It's mostly players who are used to DA's freebie health regen, and auto revive system.

Well, in this case it's a player who's remembering what a pointless waste of time it was in BG2 and every other game which had it.

[philippe willaume]

Wulfram wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

It's mostly players who are used to DA's freebie health regen, and auto revive system.

Well, in this case it's a player who's remembering what a pointless waste of time it was in BG2 and every other game which had it.

Seconded.

if it is to replace health regen with sleep or go to merchant/potion/inn, and nothing else please spare me.

The idea of separating the health effect from the hp bar is a good idea.

as FJ and MC mentioned you could have either damage taking down fatigue or having damageable armour that gives you a "shield effect".
of the two i think using the fatigue/stamina is the best.

another way could be to have a defence bar. IE that would be you ability to defect, use your shield/armour to prevent damages or absorb the blow. so that would be regenerating according to you class fighting style,spells, talents, gear etc
Damage to heath would only be possible when the defence bar is down. basically the same concept as in ME.

Phil

[Ziggeh]

Wulfram wrote...

Well, in this case it's a player who's remembering what a pointless waste of time it was in BG2 and every other game which had it.

Many would have called multiplayer a needless tack on until it was done right in ME3. Many things are bad right up until the point that they're not. 

There are ways to do this that are deep, interesting and not at all tedious. Assuming this won't be using one of those on the basis that other games didn't is a problematic argument.

[Sidney]

Fetunche wrote...

The big deal is that the game won't play like DA anymore, this plus the other changes mean it will be a different kind of game. The people unhappy with the lack of old school rpg game mechanics in DA and fans of BG etc may like it, fans of DA like me may not.

I suspect a lot of folks have a level of nostalgia for BG combat/encounters that is unwarranted. I've been playing since Wasteland on RPG's so I'm not unaware of non-regenerating health...it is just a mechanism I don't care for anymore all lack of regeneration means is a lot more time spent casting healing spells (always a high level of fun), drinking potions (yeah, more fun) or watching "rest" animations (WOW, super fun!!!).

The reality is the encounter design in DA or BG or any RPG really isn't build around you being able to avoid damage - it it was they'd not slap hundreds of hit points on you by games end - it is built around being able to absorb damage. Yes, your armor and some buffs might help but really most fights end up with damage on your people (cue the ubermensch who will tell us how they didn't take damage fighting anything in DAO).  Now couple that with the sort of stupid level of dungeon crawls people claim to like (Orzammar) and imagine the level of health maintenance that is going on as each fight causes progressive levels of damage.

Again, as long as your mana refils your health will refil as well because of healing spells so what exactly is the point other than to make players sit around while the blue fills up. God help us if we go back to the awful magic system of BG where mages are basically one shot weapons before they have to rest to refil their spell capacity.

[Sidney]

Ziggeh wrote...

There are ways to do this that are deep, interesting and not at all tedious. Assuming this won't be using one of those on the basis that other games didn't is a problematic argument.

Sure, name me a way that it has been done that isn't tedious and it just plain flat out can't be deep. The goal of all combat is to not get hurt so you do not change that. Even regen scenarios don't have (useful) regen during combat so it can't change how you approach a fight. All it does is change how you use time between fights.