1109 réponses à ce sujet

[Fast Jimmy]

AlanC9 wrote...

As others have said, doesn't limiting heath regen imply limiting mana regen too? Otherwise it's just busywork, like ME1 in the early going where you've only got one set of Phoenix armor and have to keep passing it around.

And, call me crazy... what if it isn't safe to just stand around? <gasp!>

I'd be very pleasantly surprised at some ambient AI, random movements and roaming in enemies. Just because I cleared a hallway going in shouldn't mean it is clear going out. Just because every enemy has died in a room doesn't mean new ones can't stroll in for whatever reason while I am resting.

Take some of the safety net out of resting/regenerating and suddenly you've got a real game on your hands.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 06 août 2013 - 11:56 .

[Vaeliorin]

Sigh...this likely means the continuation of lots of non-challenging trash mob encounters. I'd much have preferred they took advantage of the benefits of regenerating health to make each encounter be potentially deadly like they should have when they first added regenerating health.

I suppose I can look forward to killing hundreds of completely harmless hobgoblin/gibberling/xvart equivalents.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I like trash mobs. I like being able to enjoy the benefits of having grown more powerful, and it makes sense within the setting that there should still be low-level enemies out there even after you've become high-level.

[devSin]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I do object to twitch gameplay, but not all dodging is necessarily twitch gameplay.

D&D has a Dodge ability.

Origins has a dodge talent as well (something like 5% or 10% efficacy IIRC).

When I say "twitch", I'm referring to player skill, as opposed to mathematics. Learning how to dodge is something that would only benefit a twitch-based game, as a "dodge" skill would only be a random percentage (at least as far as we're accustomed; I don't recall the specific mechanics for 3E dodge). There's nothing for you to learn, only to reload and hope you get luckier the second time.

And if the tradeoff for no health regeneration was a fully twitch-based game, where not getting hit relies solely on moving your character out of the way (if you do get hit, damage depends on the attack and your armor, but getting hit is only about position when the attack lands), I expected that you would not be pleased about the limited regen anymore. :-)

simfamSP wrote...

It's a sensible decision.

But it really breaks character to rest for eight hours after every encounter just because you lost five hit-points and all you're lacking a fireball spell.

Well, you don't rest after every encounter; you just play smarter. ;-)

I only rested in IE games to rememorize spells IIRC, and I sometimes had to force myself to rest just because I was handling dungeons without needing to exhaust my spellbook (and my Bhaalspawn was usually a wizard).

But when you do need to rest, returning to town would have been foolish except for the most extreme situation (I guess out of potions or if the rest of your party is dead). The travel time doesn't seem justifiable from any roleplaying perspective.

Modifié par devSin, 07 août 2013 - 12:19 .

[Wulfram]

This is liable to be a totally pointless waste of time. If there's mana regen, then all it does is add busywork and make having a healer more necessary. If you can "rest", then that's pointless busy work. If you can only rest in "safe" areas, then that's just some extra pointless trudging.

Now, if Bioware are prepared to make it so that you don't have regenerating mana, don't allow consequenceless rest mid-mission and can't simply guzzle potions to make the problem go away, that could be interesting. But really difficult to balance, and creating a very different play style to anything Bioware has done. I don't really believe they'll do it - this'll just be a bit of pointless annoyance that'll get applauded because it's "old school".

[Wissenschaft]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

As precaution I removed some images from the online aspect of Game Informer.

If it's just on a tumblr, there's a good chance that Game Informer didn't give permission. Sorry.

 

Its too late, if its on Tumblr its already out.

[devSin]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I like trash mobs. I like being able to enjoy the benefits of having grown more powerful, and it makes sense within the setting that there should still be low-level enemies out there even after you've become high-level.

I still have fond memories of Yaga-Shura's encampment.

They weren't even all that weak, but I remember just wiping the floor with his endless legions of armies (I even modified David's adjustments to randomize the length of his decaying protection, so the waves would last longer). And with that epic Inon Zur battle theme, it was just great fun.

Amkethran was less fun, however, as by that point, the whole expansion had just become a mindless grind. There's a point where even slaughtering defenseless trash is no longer exciting.

[sickpixie]

The previous games had bad combat pacing so I hope this works out better, assuming there is no trivial cost to restoring health like unrestricted heal-party-on-rest, free magical healing, or unlimited healing potions. If any of those apply then it's a pointless change.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Reminds me of KOTOR all over again, running back to bases till you get heal power then you just waste time regenerating.

[Bekkael]

Can someone (anyone?) please explain to me exactly why it's a good thing in a game to have no health regen? Is it a form of artificial difficulty, or what?

Since so many seem excited by this news, I would genuinely like to understand what's so great about it.

(I ask because up until recently I had this on my character in Dragon's Dogma, and going to rest at an inn or carrying lots of potions/herbs just annoyed the hell out of me. It did not make the game more fun or in any way more enjoyable, just so you know why I am opposed to it.)

[Direwolf0294]

No health regen after combat sounds terrible, to be honset. You'll end up in a situation where:

A: You're forced to bring along a mage, because mana still regains, and just stand around doing nothing for several minutes while you heal your party and then wait for you mana to regain.

B: Are forced to specialise in herblism or use a character who's already specced in it to make heaps and heaps of potions for you to always carry around, which in turn means you have to spend heaps of time/gold gathering the materials to make potions. The other option of course being to spend all your gold at merchants to buy potions straight up. Either way, potions are now the most valuable commodity in the game.

C: Are forced to save before every encounter, and then replay them over and over again, even if you beat the encounter, just so you can finish it with optimal health.

None of the above sound very appealing, and having played games in the past that utilise systems similar to the above, none of them are very fun.

[EvilChani]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

EvilChani wrote...

Northern Sun wrote...

Not a fan of this particular change. I don't look forward to the inevitable time when I get hit by something unexpected in a dungeon then have to either limp back to the nearest town and go back to buy potions and go back or reload a previous save and buy more potions.

Ditto. This is a good way to cause frustration and annoyance, in my opinion. I'd have no problem with health slowly returning, or even being forced to sleep to return to full health - ala New Vegas - but being forced to chug potions like an addict is not something I like at all. 

Even if you could become addicted? That was originally an intended gameplay mechanic of DA:O - lyrium addiction. That would definitely be something that would make things quite interesting. 

Oh God, that would just make it worse! If they take away health regen and give us no other options but to chug potions to heal while adding in possible addiction, they can keep the damned game. I play a game to enjoy it, not to be so mired in minutiae that I can't focus on the actual story!

[devSin]

Filament wrote...

Keep in mind that this is all based on your extrapolation of that single word, not anything I actually suggested.

Did you suggest something?

I was simply commenting on a possibility I find worrisome, and your post gave me a chance to further express it.

I've long been afraid of seeing twitch-based gameplay with the new engine. And I'll use your post to talk about it if I want to.

Modifié par devSin, 07 août 2013 - 02:31 .

[metatheurgist]

Bekkael wrote...
Can someone (anyone?) please explain to me exactly why it's a good thing in a game to have no health regen? Is it a form of artificial difficulty, or what?

Everything is artificial difficulty. Why limit the number of spells I can cast? That's artificial difficulty. Why limit how much I can buy? AD again. Why limit how much HP I have? AD. Why does my sword not do infinite damage? AD. Why can't my PC fight, magic, rogue, alchemy and be a master at lying, intimidation, diplomacy simultaneously? AD....

Bekkael wrote...
Since so many seem excited by this news, I would genuinely like to understand what's so great about it.

Resource management used to be a critical aspect of RPGs. This included the health of your characters. Some of us, I suspect mostly old-school gamers like and want that back (remember DA originally claimed to be a return to the roots of RPG gaming). It's OK if you don't like it, there are way more games with health regen than without.

[sickpixie]

Bekkael wrote...

Can someone (anyone?) please explain to me exactly why it's a good thing in a game to have no health regen? Is it a form of artificial difficulty, or what?

Since so many seem excited by this news, I would genuinely like to understand what's so great about it.

(I ask because up until recently I had this on my character in Dragon's Dogma, and going to rest at an inn or carrying lots of potions/herbs just annoyed the hell out of me. It did not make the game more fun or in any way more enjoyable, just so you know why I am opposed to it.)

Ideally it adds resource management i.e. long-term strategy when it comes to exploring an area.  This has an effect on tactics i.e. what you're doing in any given battle. It makes filler combat have a purpose: draining your resources.

One of the downsides of health and mana regen in DA:O/2 is that something can only truly challenge you if it has the chances of causing a full party wipe. As it is, there's a lot of combat you can breeze through on autopilot. If they were to remove all or most of this filler, you'd have much shorter games (some could accept this, a lot can't). If they were to tune all these fights to be party wipe-worthy, they'd be frustrating and unenjoyable for most. They did try adding strategy with injuries but these weren't all that big of a deal, considering how abundant and inexpensive injury kits were.

True, one of the consequences of no health regen is that playing poorly may result in having to backtrack to recover or buying more items than you'd prefer. It's an incentive to play better.

[Sylvius the Mad]

devSin wrote...

When I say "twitch", I'm referring to player skill, as opposed to mathematics.

So I gathered.

Learning how to dodge is something that would only benefit a twitch-based game, as a "dodge" skill would only be a random percentage (at least as far as we're accustomed; I don't recall the specific mechanics for 3E dodge). There's nothing for you to learn, only to reload and hope you get luckier the second time.

It depends who's doing the learning.  With a percentage-based doge skill, the character is still learning to dodge, and his increasing competence is modelled through the change in odds.

But if you're talking about the the player learning something, I still disagree.  The player would need to learn how to allocate points effectively, and how to employ tactics that took advantage of that point distribution.  A character who is good at dodging should not employ tactics that keep the enemy at range, because that effectively wastes those dodge points.  Conversely, a character who is not good at dodging would benefit from keeping enemies at range.

And if the tradeoff for no health regeneration was a fully twitch-based game, where not getting hit relies solely on moving your character out of the way (if you do get hit, damage depends on the attack and your armor, but getting hit is only about position when the attack lands), I expected that you would not be pleased about the limited regen anymore. :-)

And you'd be right, but I don't know why you would suppose that particular tradeoff.

[Dave of Canada]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I'd be very pleasantly surprised at some ambient AI, random movements and roaming in enemies. Just because I cleared a hallway going in shouldn't mean it is clear going out. Just because every enemy has died in a room doesn't mean new ones can't stroll in for whatever reason while I am resting.

You're giving me nightmares about vanilla NWN2, Jimmy.

[Mr.House]

This is good news.

[devSin]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

It depends who's doing the learning.  With a percentage-based doge skill, the character is still learning to dodge, and his increasing competence is modelled through the change in odds.

But if you're talking about the the player learning something, I still disagree.  The player would need to learn how to allocate points effectively, and how to employ tactics that took advantage of that point distribution.  A character who is good at dodging should not employ tactics that keep the enemy at range, because that effectively wastes those dodge points.  Conversely, a character who is not good at dodging would benefit from keeping enemies at range.

I'm reasonably sure there was sufficient context for you to understand what I was suggesting.

"Learn to dodge" is not something I would say to you if I expected you to become more proficient exploiting the dodge mechanics of your current ruleset. Even though there could be learning involved in such a thing, I wouldn't express it that way, and I wouldn't interpret somebody else suggesting for me to do it (unless it was you, maybe) as meaning anything other than improving my twitch skills.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

And you'd be right, but I don't know why you would suppose that particular tradeoff.

It was what Filament's post made me think of. Nothing more.

As I said, no passive health regeneration could be a good thing (for you at least), but it also could be very, very bad. And although I truly don't want to see the game move away from the rules-based gameplay we've become accustomed to, I had to admit that it would have been amusing to see your response to it.