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[The Hierophant]

Wulfram wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

How is no free health regen pointless when health depletion is the only means of defeat?

Because there's always some means of health regen, it's just about how inconvenient it's going to be.

Regen is a given in most Rpgs, but it's usually earned and not freely given to the player from the start.

With no free health regen there'll potentially be greater importance on non offence related passives or sustainable talents, while the player will have to wisely spend their money on enchanted armor, accessories, weaponry or potions for surviveability, in regards to their playing style.

Free health regen from the get go only lessens the importance of resource management, as there's no tradeoffs in spent talent points or financially.

[Wulfram]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

But saying "I'm going to hate combat because of this" when, again, we know nothing about it, may be a little premature.

I haven't said that.  That I'll hate health regen doesn't mean I'll hate combat.

BG2's resting system is purely a negative, but it's combat is still pretty good.  Though that's partly because they keep the hoop jumping down to a minimum.

[Fast Jimmy]

Free health regen from the get go only lessens the importance of resource management, as there's no tradeoffs in spent talent points or financially.

Also, let's not forget the importance health regen takes away from non-combat skills such as traps.

In DA:O, you can spend ten minutes lining up traps before a fight and use them to take down a group of enemies easily. Or, conversely, you could run in and get the fight over in two minutes. Both methods wind up having you walk away with full health.

If, instead, using the traps saves you tons of health and leaves your party strong in a non-health regen system, it can save you time and effort overall from having to run back to town/sit and regenerate out of combat (or even may the traps WHILE you regnerate, I suppose).

[The Hierophant]

Also, let's not forget the importance health regen takes away from non-combat skills such as traps.

In DA:O, you can spend ten minutes lining up traps before a fight and use them to take down a group of enemies easily. Or, conversely, you could run in and get the fight over in two minutes. Both methods wind up having you walk away with full health.

If, instead, using the traps saves you tons of health and leaves your party strong in a non-health regen system, it can save you time and effort overall from having to run back to town/sit and regenerate out of combat (or even may the traps WHILE you regnerate, I suppose).

Since DAI uses non linear environments stealth could be used to survey enemy locations or bait them into ambushes. Preemptively casting spells from a distance might be a possibility too.

[billy the squid]

Wulfram wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

But saying "I'm going to hate combat because of this" when, again, we know nothing about it, may be a little premature.

I haven't said that.  That I'll hate health regen doesn't mean I'll hate combat.

BG2's resting system is purely a negative, but it's combat is still pretty good.  Though that's partly because they keep the hoop jumping down to a minimum.

So what? You hate the lack of health regen as a mechanic, for any particular reason other than resource management?

Witcher 2 had regenerating health, and the combat was difficult as hell because of how it was designed and it still required plenty of resource management before combat to craft potions, weapons, armour or you got your arse kicked, sometimes you couldn't get through an encounter without preparing extensively for it. Frankly the health regenerated so slowly in combat and the lack of any health regen power, almost required me to craft a "swallow" before entering combat areas, let alone any other potions or traps.

Yet, by comparison Dark Souls had no health regeneration and was just as hard. Neither did Skyrim and both were resource management intensive, as much as TW2 in some cases. And all 3 had equipment which would regenerate HP in and out of combat.

DAO had regenrating HP, but it's injury system required you to go to camp or resource manage health poultices in exactly the same way as DA 3 would have you do. Frankly if no rgenerating HP had been in this game, I think equipment items like the Lifegiver ring would have become incredibly useful.

I don't see that HP not regenerating is linked to making an assumption that every character will not be at full health rather it's linked as, the above examples show to what level, where you are in the game, and what difficulty. I actually see no regenerating health, the establishment of Witcher like combat mechanics for preparation precludes the use of wave mechanics, something I hated from DA2. 

Modifié par billy the squid, 14 août 2013 - 06:51 .

[AlanC9]

EntropicAngel wrote...


I find this very interesting, because the first time I played DA:O I actually could not beat several of the encounters, like the dragon fights--I had to use the command console to cheat. And while NOW I can say it's rather easy with a rogue, playing a mage I still find it difficult. 

Having trouble with mages sounds like maybe your aggro management needs work

[Realmzmaster]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I think it's important to note that combat difficulty and health regen aren't as related as some think.

Yes, taking the *same* set of encounters and removing health regen will more than likely make those sequence of encounters more difficult. But simply saying "Game X has health regen and Game Y does not" doesn't actually tell you "Game X is easier than game Y." It depends on the encounter design.

Health regen takes into account more of the strategic elements of combat, rather than the tactical. For someone that highly values tactical but is indifferent towards strategic, they'll prefer a game with challenging combat encounters but health regen.

If someone does like no health regen, they see each encounter has managing towards a bigger picture. It's just a different focus/goal out of gaming.

Here lies the crux of the matter. For me DAO and DA2 were not that strategic. I value strategy and then tactics. Stategy for the overall campaign and tactics for each individual encounter. For me no health regen changes the tactical considerations and requires strategic planning.

BG1, BG2 and some other crpgs allowed for stategic planning of resources. DA2 and DAO (to a lesser extent) focus more on the tactical considerations no real long range planning necessary. All you basically have to do in DA2 was survive the fight and everyone is back to full strength. Mostly tactics and very little (if any) strategy involved.

BG1, BG2 and some earlier crpgs required thinking ahead to the next encounter. You had to calculate the minimum amount of resources necessary to defeat the enemy in the present encounter so something was in reserve for the next encounter.  The health regen system basically takes that away. The party always enters the next encounter at full strength with everything available.
Another point is that the health regen system is too unrealistic for me. The party does not always get to rest before the next encounter. Health regen trivalizes that aspect. Combat (for me) is all about survival both in and out of combat. That to me means proper resource management and control of inventory.

You are correct that there are two different playstyles, but in DAO and DA2 my playstyle basically got kicked to the crub.
So I have no problem with a no health gen system. Yes I was able to adapt to the system in DAO and DA2. That does not mean that health regen is my preferred system.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 14 août 2013 - 06:51 .

[Wulfram]

Um, I think spending 10 minutes to set up traps before battle is pretty lame strategy for the game to encourage. I mean, it just seems a rather boring way to take out a foe. And tends to be reliant on metagaming too - how does your character know theres a really tough fight coming up? Unless you're doing it regularly before many fights, in which case, well, you clearly have a very different idea of fun to me.

And, well, either the fight is an actually tough boss fight in which case making it easier to win it should be a benefit even without health regen, or it's a trash encounter, in which is spending 10 minutes preparing for it really something you want to do routinely?

[Wulfram]

Realmzmaster wrote...

BG1, BG2 and some earlier crpgs required thinking ahead to the next encounter. You had to calculate the minimum amount of resources necessary to defeat the enemy in the present encounter so something was in reserve for the next encounter. 

No you didn't have to.  You pushed the rest button.  Aside from a very few occasions the decision to go into combat with less than full strength was purely a self imposed challenge.

and if you were trying to limit resting it didn't result in very interesting gameplay in my experience.  Firing up some long lasting buffs and summons then auto-attack everything to death isn't my idea of fun.

[Fast Jimmy]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Also, let's not forget the importance health regen takes away from non-combat skills such as traps. 

In DA:O, you can spend ten minutes lining up traps before a fight and use them to take down a group of enemies easily. Or, conversely, you could run in and get the fight over in two minutes. Both methods wind up having you walk away with full health. 

If, instead, using the traps saves you tons of health and leaves your party strong in a non-health regen system, it can save you time and effort overall from having to run back to town/sit and regenerate out of combat (or even may the traps WHILE you regnerate, I suppose).

Interesting, I was thinking about the opposite--if you get caught in a trap yourself.

Even more reason for non-combat skills such as trap detection/disarming, then. 

In a PnP setting, many classes have a function that makes them useful aside from combat. The health regen model can reduce the purpose of these utility roles and focus soley on combat, like what we saw with DA2.

[billy the squid]

Wulfram wrote...

Um, I think spending 10 minutes to set up traps before battle is pretty lame strategy for the game to encourage. I mean, it just seems a rather boring way to take out a foe. And tends to be reliant on metagaming too - how does your character know theres a really tough fight coming up? Unless you're doing it regularly before many fights, in which case, well, you clearly have a very different idea of fun to me.

And, well, either the fight is an actually tough boss fight in which case making it easier to win it should be a benefit even without health regen, or it's a trash encounter, in which is spending 10 minutes preparing for it really something you want to do routinely?

If you get a quest or you're going out into the wild, you craft traps, potions, grenades, poultices, poisons. You get tooled up before you go out into the area. You might be a witcher, but barreling in talking on 5 heavily armoured knights is a recipie for disaster. That's why the HP regen worked in TW2, it was balanced around a completely different game design. (And the traps "Arrd" sign can be laid in combat, several mission laying traps in combat is a necessity)

Nor have you addressed any of the other points regarding the similarities of the games with HP regen and without it both requiring resource management. The lack of HP regen hasn't affected any of the game designs with regards to resource management, nor did it's inclusion in TW2 have any effect either in the same vein and in terms of combat encouters. The assumption was if you didn't prepare before, you'd get your arse kicked. That's it, it didn't matter that you were at full hp or not. The combat was just as hard.

The only games that I have seen wave combat and massive HP and damage bloating are those with regenerating HP. 

Modifié par billy the squid, 14 août 2013 - 07:06 .

[Wulfram]

billy the squid wrote...

If you get a quest or you're going out into the wild, you craft traps, potions, grenades, poultices, poisons. You get tooled up before you go out into the area. You might be a witcher, but barreling in talking on 5 heavily armoured knights is a recipie for disaster. That's why the HP regen worked in TW2, it was balanced around a completely different game design. (And the traps "Arrd" sign can be laid in combat, several mission laying traps in combat is a necessity)

Yes, taking down tough enemies should be a challenge, obviously.

But I'd rather the tactics involved in this are something more than 10 minutes of some repititive no challenge task and then an easy win.  But I can't comment on TW2 because I never played it.

Nor have you addressed any of the other points regarding the similarities of the games with HP regen and without it both requiring resource management. The lack of HP regen hasn't affected any of the game designs with regards to resource management, nor did it's inclusion in TW2 have any effect either in the same vein and in terms of combat encouters. The assumption was if you didn't prepare before, you'd get your arse kicked. That's it, it didn't matter that you were at full hp or not. The combat was just as hard.

The only games that I have seen wave combat and massive HP and damage bloating are those with regenerating HP.

I'm not sure of your point.  I don't like health regen because it adds work without adding challenge or "fun", it's not about traps or resource management or waves or massive HP or whatever you seem to be talking about.

Modifié par Wulfram, 14 août 2013 - 07:16 .

[billy the squid]

Wulfram wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

If you get a quest or you're going out into the wild, you craft traps, potions, grenades, poultices, poisons. You get tooled up before you go out into the area. You might be a witcher, but barreling in talking on 5 heavily armoured knights is a recipie for disaster. That's why the HP regen worked in TW2, it was balanced around a completely different game design. (And the traps "Arrd" sign can be laid in combat, several mission laying traps in combat is a necessity)

Yes, taking down tough enemies should be a challenge, obviously.

But I'd rather the tactics involved in this are something more than 10 minutes of some repititive no challenge task and then an easy win.  But I can't comment on TW2 because I never played it.

Nor have you addressed any of the other points regarding the similarities of the games with HP regen and without it both requiring resource management. The lack of HP regen hasn't affected any of the game designs with regards to resource management, nor did it's inclusion in TW2 have any effect either in the same vein and in terms of combat encouters. The assumption was if you didn't prepare before, you'd get your arse kicked. That's it, it didn't matter that you were at full hp or not. The combat was just as hard.

The only games that I have seen wave combat and massive HP and damage bloating are those with regenerating HP.

I'm not sure of your point.  I don't like health regen because it adds work without adding challenge or "fun", it's not about traps or resource management or waves or massive HP or whatever you seem to be talking about.

Oh, okay. If you've not played TW2 then it's going to be a bit more difficult to illustrate my point, no problem though. 

As you've not played the examples that I've given, I'll explain the point that the inclusion of no health regen doesn't affect the game in a unique fashion in terms of "work". By having HP regen TW2 was unaffected, but it's design was from a different stand point ie: prep before combat and a far more difficult combat system. Those without it, like Dark Souls and Skyrim didn't require more "work" than TW2.

Well then, what doesn't make it "fun" ? All I've got from your point is " I don't like it because it adds work, and that's not fun"

And I've explained that TW2 required more "work" and was more challenging than Skyrim, while both TW2 and Demon Souls and Dark Souls had different HP mechanics, yet required the same lvl of "work" so I'm not seeing how one system requires more by simple virtue of the fact it exists and the other doesn't.

Modifié par billy the squid, 14 août 2013 - 07:36 .

[Fetunche]

I never used traps, poisons or grenades in either game as I don't like crafting or spending gold on them. Having to drag a rogue along to unlock stuff is bad enough, having traps be more than just a nuisance means not being able to do without them at all. I don't like being forced to take certain characters or classes. I want to take who I want to take or no one.

[Fast Jimmy]

Fetunche wrote...

I never used traps, poisons or grenades in either game as I don't like crafting or spending gold on them. Having to drag a rogue along to unlock stuff is bad enough, having traps be more than just a nuisance means not being able to do without them at all. I don't like being forced to take certain characters or classes. I want to take who I want to take or no one.

It sounds like from some screenshots of an "Exploration skill tree," all classes will have some level of ability to do these types of things, with other classes doing them better than others. Warriors might excel at feats of strength or tracking, while Rogues may be better at traps or locks. That doesn't mean a warrior couldn't just bash open a chest, or a rogue try to detect enemies from a distance. 

If you don't want to do resource management, use consumables like poisons/traps/etc., don't want to have to worry about going back to town/resting for your health, don't want to worry about having the best party to address all possible obstacles, but instead want to play how you want to play, again... I think dropping the difficulty may not be a bad solution to this. 

Depth for those who want it, simplicity for those who don't. I know it's not perfect, but I don't think its the worst idea. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 14 août 2013 - 07:46 .

[Realmzmaster]

Wulfram wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

BG1, BG2 and some earlier crpgs required thinking ahead to the next encounter. You had to calculate the minimum amount of resources necessary to defeat the enemy in the present encounter so something was in reserve for the next encounter. 

No you didn't have to.  You pushed the rest button.  Aside from a very few occasions the decision to go into combat with less than full strength was purely a self imposed challenge.

and if you were trying to limit resting it didn't result in very interesting gameplay in my experience.  Firing up some long lasting buffs and summons then auto-attack everything to death isn't my idea of fun.

IN BG1 and BG2 You pushed the rest button if you were in a place to rest. So you had to acertain if the party was in a relatively safe place. That also opened the party up to the random encounters which could disrupt the rest and you had to fight at less than full strength. Still astrategic consideration to taken into account.

In Pool of Radiance:Myth Drannor and Temple of Elemental Evil, the party had to find a place to rest. The game gave a warning from green to yellow to red.  Resting in a yellow  area meant the party would have a chance of a random encounter. Resting in a red area was not permitted. If the party tried to rest in a red area a random encounter was guarnteed. Only green areas were safe to rest. Those green area were far and few in the duneons. It also meant have to traverse that dungeon area again and risk running into random encounters.

So strategic planning became necessary.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 14 août 2013 - 08:04 .

[The Hierophant]

Fetunche wrote...

I never used traps, poisons or grenades in either game as I don't like crafting or spending gold on them. Having to drag a rogue along to unlock stuff is bad enough, having traps be more than just a nuisance means not being able to do without them at all. I don't like being forced to take certain characters or classes. I want to take who I want to take or no one.

No one said you'll be forced to do any of the above.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 14 août 2013 - 07:56 .

[Allan Schumacher]

In DA:O, you can spend ten minutes lining up traps before a fight and use them to take down a group of enemies easily. Or, conversely, you could run in and get the fight over in two minutes. Both methods wind up having you walk away with full health.

One method results in an easier combat, however, which may be all the player is looking for (their decisions and planning to have an effect on the upcoming battle).

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 14 août 2013 - 07:56 .

[Allan Schumacher]

No you didn't have to. You pushed the rest button. Aside from a very few occasions the decision to go into combat with less than full strength was purely a self imposed challenge.

This is still an important thing for some people, however (and accents the divide).

That that self-imposed challenge exists is something that others will also find appealing.

And I've explained that TW2 required more "work" and was more
challenging than Skyrim, while both TW2 and Demon Souls and Dark Souls
had different HP mechanics, yet required the same lvl of "work" so I'm
not seeing how one system requires more by simple virtue of the fact it
exists and the other doesn't.

I don't know if all "work" is created equal, however, even if it takes the same amount of effort.

I prefer something more like The Witcher's system because it the actions that I take, while still effort, are simply appealing in perhaps an intangible way.  The idea of preparation is more entertaining, especially since it's still a long term preparation (with toxicity and whatnot) as opposed to a common no health regen mechanic from the IE days of "rest a lot."

The advantage of The Witcher having health regeneration, however, did mean that there were less situations of "Well I won the fight, but am effectively stuck now so I might as well have lost the fight."  (Although I find that that mechanic comes up more in FPS games than RPGs, in my own experiences).

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 14 août 2013 - 08:06 .

[Realmzmaster]

Fetunche wrote...

I never used traps, poisons or grenades in either game as I don't like crafting or spending gold on them. Having to drag a rogue along to unlock stuff is bad enough, having traps be more than just a nuisance means not being able to do without them at all. I don't like being forced to take certain characters or classes. I want to take who I want to take or no one.

So basically what you are saying is that you do not want no health regeneration because it will affect your playstyle which simply means that my playstyle gets screwed.  I am pushing for my playstyle which includes no health regeneration. The game will not be able to accommodate both playstyles unless Bioware decides to create a hardcore mode for players (some of which have spoken in this thread) who like my playstyle (which would involve balancing the game a different way. Not likely to happen).

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 14 août 2013 - 08:02 .