1109 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Second, as I mentioned, if my lack of ability holds back my character, that breaks the game world.  This is just like my opposition to twitch combat.

Alll RPGs have this limitation inherent in their design. It's inevitable with anything that has a complex ruleset that has to be learned and mastered to be proficient. 

[OlgaStarcher]

 I'm undecided on this one. Lots of dungeon crawlers have no health regeneration and it works fine. Tales series, for example, have you go through an entire dungeon without hitting a single regeneration spot until just before the final boss battle. 

What I am concerned with here (a little concerned, but concerned none the less) is that I will be forced to level-grind. I hate that. That is why I don't play online RPG's and  that alone would be enough for me to stop playing a game. 

I think the optimal solution would be to allow the players to select their own run-through difficulty the way we did with friendly fire damage in the two prior games. Those who like the challange can rise to it. The rest of us can enjoy the story without having to work our ass off for it.

[draken-heart]

EntropicAngel wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Maybe a bad idea, but Why not have Mana/Stamina bar be the secondary/defensive bar? and every ability you use lowers that, so you have to approach battle tactically?

Sorry for quoting, but nobody wants to comment? Seemed like a bad idea anyways.

I don't really understand what you mean by "secondary/defensive bar." Abilities already lower mana and stamina.

Kind of like how Mass Effect has Shield/Barrier. You use that bar to cast abilities, lowering your own defenses, but casting powerful offensive abilities.

If there was a choice between no regen no defensive bar or regen without the bar, I willtake the regen.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

Alll RPGs have this limitation inherent in their design. It's inevitable with anything that has a complex ruleset that has to be learned and mastered to be proficient.

Mastery shouldn't be necessary.  That's my point.

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Mastery shouldn't be necessary.  That's my point.

Unless you want to roleplay a master. And competence isn't necessary... unless you want to roleplay someone competent. 

Player skill can't be filtered out - that's just the nature of what it means to have a game. 

[AlanC9]

Has mastery ever been necessary? I've seen people use idiotic tactics in IE games and get away with it.

[In Exile]

AlanC9 wrote...

Has mastery ever been necessary? I've seen people use idiotic tactics in IE games and get away with it.

IE games quickly become unwinnable if you don't understand even the basics of your build, e.g. picking garbage feats and having poor stat distribution, not knowing which spells are just there to troll players, not getting what AC means, etc. 

[AlanC9]

Oh, sure. Incompetence is fatal in an IE game. I'm just saying that it's a fair distance from  mere competence to mastery, and the IE doesn't require you to go that far.

[Realmzmaster]

Fetunche wrote...

I would be interested to know why the devs decided to drag no health regen out of the ancient rpg abyss when it had no place in the DA universe before.

Well maybe because it is not out of the ancient abyss. Dark Souls and Demon Souls both use the the no regeneration system. The only regeneration is from items or spells (miracles). There are other modern crpgs like Fallout 3 that used the system and more to come like Project Eternity and Wasteland 2.

The Wasteland 2 system ( 4 character party with 3 npc possible for a total of 7)  will use the Wasteland system which had 7 states of health. Normal meaning at least 1 hp to maximum hp for character level then Unconcious.

If the charcter was normal or just unconcious health would regenerate unless the character had a disease or radition poisoning.
Serious, Critical, Mortal and  Comatose would require first aid or a doctor's skill to stablize the character to Unconcious where the health regeneration could kick in.  If the character was in Serious or worse condition the character kept getting worse ( no health regeneration)  until the final stage Death if there is no intervention. If the character died that character could only be removed from the party by burial.

No heath regeneration never left. It has been present in crpgs. Bioware simply abandon it with DA2 going to instant health regeneration. DAO having slow health regneration.

That shows that even among the two DA games the systems are not the same. So ancient? No just making a bigger comeback.

[In Exile]

AlanC9 wrote...

Oh, sure. Incompetence is fatal in an IE game. I'm just saying that it's a fair distance from  mere competence to mastery, and the IE doesn't require you to go that far.

Oh, I agree, but I actually think the game between incompetence and competence is very big, especially if we're looking at someone with 0 experience with that kind of RPG and no background in boardgames/P&P. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

Unless you want to roleplay a master. And competence isn't necessary... unless you want to roleplay someone competent. 

Player skill can't be filtered out - that's just the nature of what it means to have a game.

I don't think it should be necessary to master the game's mechanics for the player to roleplay a masterful character.  The character should still be able to excel when the player cannot.  It might take the player longer to implement that excellence, moment to moment, but it should still be possible.

[draken-heart]

EntropicAngel wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Kind of like how Mass Effect has Shield/Barrier. You use that bar to cast abilities, lowering your own defenses, but casting powerful offensive abilities.

If there was a choice between no regen no defensive bar or regen without the bar, I willtake the regen.

I still don't really understand--In ME1 the shield was automatic, it wasn't something you cast. For barrier, you had to cast it, but it didn't actually limit your ability to cast other things.

I'm sorry, I'm just not understanding what you're trying to say. Are you simply saying you would prefer regen withOUT a bar over your health? We kind of already had that, didn't we?

*facepalm* I am saying that instead of Stamina/Mana, you have a defensive bar and your abilities end up "lowering" that bar by leaving you open to attacks and damage to health.

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I don't think it should be necessary to master the game's mechanics for the player to roleplay a masterful character.  The character should still be able to excel when the player cannot.  It might take the player longer to implement that excellence, moment to moment, but it should still be possible.

But it's not. Let's say I want to RP a brilliant warrior and tactical mastermind. Part of that is (i) having a character who is very good at fighting, which means an optimal combat built and (ii) exceptional at the tactical isometric combat, which requires another, separate skill.

It's like using the (unaugmented) dialogue battle from Deus Ex:HR. Persuading is complex, and requires picking a lot of very different dialogue options. You can't create a "persuasive" character. Persuasion becomes a point of a player skill.

[Deadmac]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I think it's important to note that combat difficulty and health regen aren't as related as some think.

Yes,
taking the *same* set of encounters and removing health regen will more
than likely make those sequence of encounters more difficult. But
simply saying "Game X has health regen and Game Y does not" doesn't
actually tell you "Game X is easier than game Y." It depends on the
encounter design.

Health regen takes into account more of the
strategic elements of combat, rather than the tactical. For someone
that highly values tactical but is indifferent towards strategic,
they'll prefer a game with challenging combat encounters but health
regen.

If someone does like no health regen, they see each
encounter has managing towards a bigger picture. It's just a different
focus/goal out of gaming.

If someone were to accidentally go from one encounter to another, while trying to get to safety, will there be a mechanic that allows you to skip one? What if you do not have enough regens, and you have to get to safety?

Modifié par Deadmac, 16 août 2013 - 12:05 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

But it's not. Let's say I want to RP a brilliant warrior and tactical mastermind. Part of that is (i) having a character who is very good at fighting, which means an optimal combat built and (ii) exceptional at the tactical isometric combat, which requires another, separate skill.

You're presupposing that it doesn't work, and then using that to explain how it doesn't work.

Let's say the character can still be a good enough fighter to dominate his opponents even if the player hasn't assigned skills "optimally".  Then, let's suppose that the game allows extensive pausing and optional feedback that grants the player extra knowledge about what's coming.  Then, the player can take the time he needs to implement a plan that, while not difficult for the player, is tactically brilliant within the game world.

Giving the player more time and more information allows him to emulate tactical brilliance without requiring he be tactically brilliant.

It's like using the (unaugmented) dialogue battle from Deus Ex:HR. Persuading is complex, and requires picking a lot of very different dialogue options. You can't create a "persuasive" character. Persuasion becomes a point of a player skill.

A terrible design.

[draken-heart]

Filament wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

*facepalm* I am saying that instead of Stamina/Mana, you have a defensive bar and your abilities end up "lowering" that bar by leaving you open to attacks and damage to health.

Oh, I see. Interesting, but it seems like it has the same problems In Exile mentioned for Project: Eternity (I thought Sylvius mention a particular class of game, but I can't find it). It doesn't make much sense that things like arrows or magic don't harm your actual health.

It's only exchanging questionable superhuman fortitude with questionable superhuman reflexes, it seems to me.

my idea's taking stamina/mana amd making the bar that would be it an armor/arcane shield bar, and putting talents/spells into using that bar, therefore lowering your own defenses because you are not being defensive/are attacking. Armor from in-game would make that bar drop lower as it would add to the armor/arcane shield points on that bar.

[draken-heart]

Filament wrote...

I thought we were just talking about the concept of replacing health for some abstracted "defense" on top of a very small sliver of health that represents your actual health to withstand damage.

no, it was all about turning defense into offense and forcing players to think and go into a fight tactically.