1109 réponses à ce sujet

[Urshakk]

draken-heart wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Maybe a bad idea, but Why not have Mana/Stamina bar be the secondary/defensive bar? and every ability you use lowers that, so you have to approach battle tactically?

Sorry for quoting, but nobody wants to comment? Seemed like a bad idea anyways.

If I understand you correctly, there was something similar to this in DAO: Awakening. The Legionnaire Scout specialization had a sustainable mode that drained stamina instead of health while it was on. I would imagine you have the same issues that I encountered using that ability. (Granted you could turn it off and recover stamina, however for this idea it would potentially be always toggled on)

Since abilities require energy / shield / stamina / whatever to use, what happens when you run out of stamina? Sit there and auto attack trying to regenerate? But as you continue getting hit the stamina you are trying to recover is immediately drained. This could effectively "lock" your character down from doing any action once it is spent, since you cannot regain the points to continue using abilities.

Try and run away while you regenerate? Possibly, but that really isn't fun especially if it becomes commonplace. Using a stamina draught will only help a little bit. I just don't see how it could work. My 2 cents anyway.

Modifié par Urshakk, 16 août 2013 - 01:02 .

[Realmzmaster]

@Filament,
Deep Blue's time is over. Watson now rules! Resistance is futile! All must bow to the Computer Overlords! (now where is that plug!)

[Allan Schumacher]

I don't think it should be necessary to master the game's mechanics for the player to roleplay a masterful character. The character should still be able to excel when the player cannot. It might take the player longer to implement that excellence, moment to moment, but it should still be possible.

I agree to an extent. I think there's always some level of player contribution that can never be completely isolated (a perspective you're familiar with, based on previous discussions). Especially from a decision making perspective (since you control your character). As such, a player can actively do very stupid things despite a character being very smart, and I don't think you can remove that.

Although the physical aspect, I think, is still important because (depending on what type of game you want to make), I can only imagine how frustrating it can be if you find a game concept interesting but have some level of disability that prevents you from playing it (since I have no disabilities, it's a perspective I can only imagine).

DAO actually scored very well with AbleGamers, which wasn't even intended, but it does bring it to light, somewhat. It's certainly not something that I have thought about very much in the past.

A terrible design.

Nah. Just a different one. I enjoyed the conversations (especially with the first level of upgrade, which let you measure their heart rate and other vital factors) in Human Revolution.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Although the physical aspect, I think, is still important because (depending on what type of game you want to make), I can only imagine how frustrating it can be if you find a game concept interesting but have some level of disability that prevents you from playing it (since I have no disabilities, it's a perspective I can only imagine).

DAO actually scored very well with AbleGamers, which wasn't even intended, but it does bring it to light, somewhat. It's certainly not something that I have thought about very much in the past.

This is certainly important.  Personally, only once have I found that my physical abilities (or lack thereof) negatively impacted by ability to play a game, and that was Mass Effect 2.  While the combat was all fully pausable, so that was no problem, the twitch content in the dialogue - the interrupts - caused me trouble.  When I play, I'm primarily mouse driven, but during conversations I take my hand off the mouse to rest it.  Otherwise my wrist gets too tired, and I have to stop playing (20 years of using a computer for 12-16 hours a day takes a toll).  So, with my hand not on the mouse, it wasn't generally possible for me to activate the interrupts in time.

A terrible design.

Nah. Just a different one. I enjoyed the conversations (especially with the first level of upgrade, which let you measure their heart rate and other vital factors) in Human Revolution.

To be fair, I haven't played DX:HR - I was basing my remark solely on In Exile's description of the game.

Being given more information (like heart rate) through character upgrades is exactly the sort of thing I was describing as valuable.

[AlanC9]

A little OT, but that pre-alpha gameplay vid made DAI combat look a little twitchy in places -- timed attacks and so forth.

Back on topic: While replaying ME1 I noticed that the part of the Virmire sequence involving Kirrahe's team would work in a resource-management game, but fails badly without that aspect since there's no real reason not to help out Kirrahe. (Unless you find ME1 combat boring or want Kirrahe dead in ME3, of course.) I guess this makes up for something like the Tower of Ishal sequence not working very well in a resource-management game.

[Fast Jimmy]

A little OT, but that pre-alpha gameplay vid made DAI combat look a little twitchy in places -- timed attacks and so forth.

I haven't seen that, but it has me wary. Timed attacks are really antithetical to a party based game, in my opinion.

[Realmzmaster]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

A little OT, but that pre-alpha gameplay vid made DAI combat look a little twitchy in places -- timed attacks and so forth.

I haven't seen that, but it has me wary. Timed attacks are really antithetical to a party based game, in my opinion.

Depends it may be in a part of the game where the protagonist is solo and has not picked up companions. Maybe at the start of the game the PC has to fight to get back to town, camp or civilization. It would be doable then, but not ideal.

[Fast Jimmy]

Yes, but what would be the point of such a system early on? It would introduce mechanics not seen throughout the rest of the game once you have a party. It seems a waste to have early on and not throughout the game.

I really hope they do not have such a system. It smacks of both twitch mechanics as well as grooming a gameplay system for MP.

[Fast Jimmy]

EntropicAngel wrote...

It has dodging, I saw, which worries me.

<GROAN>

[Enigmatick]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

It has dodging, I saw, which worries me.

<GROAN>

I-It m-might be a skill like the Rouge's dodge in DA2. Right? RIGHT?

[fchopin]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

It has dodging, I saw, which worries me.

<GROAN>

I like having the ability to avoid getting hit so i like this.
In DAO it was not possible to avoid getting hit.

[The dead fish]

fchopin wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

It has dodging, I saw, which worries me.

<GROAN>

I like having the ability to avoid getting hit so i like this.
In DAO it was not possible to avoid getting hit.

+1.

Quite a weakness for a combat gameplay to be honest.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 16 août 2013 - 09:28 .

[Wulfram]

Dodging is great if my character is doing it by themselves, based on their stats. Not if I have to tell them to do it.

Though it maybe should be a mode, so I can tell them to just focus on stabbing things and take the hits...

[Taleroth]

Sylvianus wrote...

+1.

Quite a weakness for a combat gameplay to be honest.

It's unmanageable in strategic gameplay. You can't be telling 4 characters to make reactions at the same time. It's a lot more micro than most will be willing to do.

Modifié par Taleroth, 16 août 2013 - 09:50 .

[The dead fish]

It was possible in DAII. I could avoid being hit, which I appreciated. I find it really boring and unbelievable that our Pc or the one we control is unable to avoid being hit. ( but i liked the DAo combat anyways )

Modifié par Sylvianus, 16 août 2013 - 09:56 .

[Fast Jimmy]

fchopin wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

It has dodging, I saw, which worries me.

<GROAN>

I like having the ability to avoid getting hit so i like this.
In DAO it was not possible to avoid getting hit.

There was DEFINITELY a way to avoid being hit. It was called your Dexterity skill and also spells/skills which reduced your enemy's To Hit %.

There wasn't a way to hit a button and dodge out of the way, yes. Because such action combat is antithetical to party-based gameplay. Having the player take control to a character and make it so they can avoid any damage, despite having a low Dexterity score, etc., is action gameplay. 

[The dead fish]

It was possible but with the stats, not with movements. But I suppose that's what you prefer.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 16 août 2013 - 10:00 .

[Taleroth]

Filament wrote...

I still have to question what "twitch" really means with regard to timed attacks in a game with pause and play gameplay. Does an ogre telegraphing a charge, meaning you have to move characters in his path out of the way (and you don't really "have to"), constitute "twitch" gameplay? If that's the case, and I see no reason why it wouldn't be with this logic, I really don't see it being antithetical to party gameplay at all. You don't have to maintain control over the character you move, or 'evade' with. Only if it prevents you from controlling other party members for any amount of time should it be a problem, I would think.

Oh yeah, sure, if you're only fighting one enemy at a time and that enemy only has rare heavy hitting attacks.

What if there's an Ogre and an archer. Or two archers. And the archer(s) are attacking every round at different targets. Let one constantly get hit, or micro two different characters every single round to dodge.

Repeat attacks are pretty common in the franchise, the genre, and just in general. And needing to micro defense every round for multiple characters isn't very engaging strategy unless we're playing Starcraft.

Modifié par Taleroth, 16 août 2013 - 10:08 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Oh yeah, sure, if you're only fighting one enemy at a time and that enemy only has rare heavy hitting attacks.

What if there's an Ogre and an archer. Or two archers. And the archer(s) are attacking every round at different targets. Let one constantly get hit, or micro two different characters every single round to dodge.
Repeat attacks are pretty common in the franchise, the genre, and just in general. And needing to micro defense every round for multiple characters isn't very engaging strategy unless we're playing Starcraft.

Exactly.

A party fighting a party means every second where you have to take control of one character of your party to the neglect of all others is time spent playing as a single character, not as a party. Hence, it is not party-based mechanics.

If you could give an order that might say "Dodge" so that a character would be more liey to dodge incoming attacks while doing less damage, then this would be doable. But if you gain an advantage taking control and doing the action yourself over giving a command without selecting the character, then that is twitch gameplay, not party-based, tactical gameplay.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 16 août 2013 - 10:11 .

[Taleroth]

Filament wrote...

You can issue multiple commands while paused.

Is that confirmed? And are you under the impression that dodge commands having to wait in queue is how it will be implemented here?

And since when could you dodge arrows?

Since most games that featured dodge mechanics.

If the dodge ends up being just a regular ability with a cooldown that fits into the queue and pmostly just negates the next attack with visual flourish, then that fits into the micro the franchise has been aiming for. Especially the cooldown element. I'd see no issue with that implementation.