1109 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

You do realize you are arguing an outcome of a mechanic that is not at all guaranteed?

What if there is no regenerating health bar, no way to rest and no way to leave the dungeon to recover? It's healing spells, potions or quest failure (which may not even be a game over)?

We don't know. Again - we are taking a caption of a picture and assuming TONS about how the game will play. Which may not be valid at all.

This is all very well, but it's an argument for shutting down this forum for another year more than anything else.

I'm responding to posts, such as some by you, which took some sort of unlimited healing availability as a given, and still defended not having health regen as reliable.  I think I'm entiitled to respond to those.

And the design that would make having no health regen something other than pointless added tedium is fundamentally incompatible with the "open world" stuff they've talked about - it's only viable if every mission is a sealed evironment.  And would leave Bioware making a game in a totally unfamiliar gameplay environment, and risk seriously alienating many of their fans by the drastic change.  Hell, people whinged endlessly at the incredibly minimal healing in DA2, and that's utterly weaksauce compared to the healing restrictions necessary to make this have any sort of redeeming features.

[GameHunter]

Are potions so bad ? they were in DAO nobody complained they were restricted in DA 2 people complained third game is in making and some people are horrified by potion usage idea ironically.

[brushyourteeth]

Potions are part of the lore. I think they should stay, but they shouldn't be able to be abused.

Cooldowns on potions don't make sense to me (never have), but maybe health potions are rare or expensive.

[Ziggeh]

esper wrote...
Everything I have heard so far as confirmed just drained my exicetment and now they have more and less promised backtracking or mindless waiting.... Yeah, not liking it.

"Making such assumptions and then deciding such assumptions don't make sense doesn't make for a very productive conversation." - David Gaider

Out of context but certainly applicable.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 07 août 2013 - 06:17 .

[Ziggeh]

GameHunter wrote...

Are potions so bad ? they were in DAO nobody complained they were restricted in DA 2

Incorrect. Lots of people complained.

[Am1vf]

Wulfram wrote...

Am1_vf wrote...

That is your way of playing, and it's allright. But I have had enough trying to win during a lifetime of exams. I want interesting fights as any other kind of gameplay, but that doesn't mean I want it to be hard.

If you don't want a challenge, I don't really see why you'd care about any of this.  Either way, you can switch things down to an easier difficulty

I don't see how fights can be interesting without some sort of challenge though - what else is there to enjoy in them?

I play BioWare games for the companions and the story, and I want the gameplay to be entertaining and interesting.

There is a element of challenge in that interest but it doesn't mean I want it to be hard. Human Revolution was a game which wasn't hard, but you had to be careful and think before starting to kill things.

The problem is in games like DA][ playing easier modes takes interesting elements from the gameplay, like friendly fire, and just gets boring.

[Am1vf]

GameHunter wrote...

Are potions so bad ? they were in DAO nobody complained they were restricted in DA 2 people complained third game is in making and some people are horrified by potion usage idea ironically.

I don't like using health potions, if I have to turn my party into potionaholics to win a fight I consider I have failed. If potions had side-effects, like liryum addiction for example, that would change things.

[GameHunter]

We don't know how armour values are changed exactly but no lvl scaling implies that from
certain enemies you can take much less damage from basic attacks atleast ,

Potions maybe from chests or high level enemy drop or they cost a lot
or require crafting materials to make.

Also we don't if potions have tiers like in DAO or heal percent of health, or how many levels
potions effectiveness exist 1,3 or more.

If you can use environment against enemies it brings possibilities of avoiding damage entirely.

[LinksOcarina]

Regenerating health was never an issue for me, since I had a lot of churn with potions and healing anyway in-game with protracted fights.

I guess they want to make it more realistic, which is nice. At the same time, I was never a fan of long-term healing.

I guess I am too indifferent in the end.

[Ziggeh]

Filament wrote...

I don't think they should be concerned with saving people from their own neurotic tendencies if they have to go all the way back to town to rest and then do so just to get an advantage in the fight. That's their prerogative. It's more satisfying for some to have that option but not need it thanks to proper planning, than to be told the right way to play or have the mechanics bent to make such concerns irrelevant.

And difference in player ability (as in, knowledge of the game mechanics) has always and should always create a significant difference in outcome. That's the only incentive to actually learn the mechanics to begin with.

Again, this is a sound argument, but a strategic device that doesn't account for mistakes is flawed design. A system should be in place to manage errors with a penalty or risk/reward aspect. This would create interesting choices.

[Wulfram]

Filament wrote...

I don't think they should be concerned with saving people from their own neurotic tendencies if they have to go all the way back to town to rest and then do so just to get an advantage in the fight. That's their prerogative. It's more satisfying for some to have that option but not need it thanks to proper planning, than to be told the right way to play or have the mechanics bent to make such concerns irrelevant.

Balancing the game on the assumption that the player is deliberately lessening their chances to succeed seems like a poor philosophy to me.  I mean, aren't we supposed to want to win?  Isn't dying supposed to be something we're trying to avoid.

And of course players may be left with little choice than to go off and rest mid-dungeon, if they took a beating in earlier fights.

And difference in player ability (as in, knowledge of the game mechanics) has always and should always create a significant difference in outcome. That's the only incentive to actually learn the mechanics to begin with.

But you shouldn't create a situation where the weaker players are always digging themselves deeper and the stronger players are being "rewarded" with getting even less challenge.

[Foxhound2121]

Fast Jimmy wrote...


I think the logic, though, is that the only way to make that happen is to make every right so hard that you can legitimately face everyone in your party dying at once. After all, if every fight let you auto-heal afterwards, then the only way to die would to be in a fight where everyone in your party was taken from 100% health to zero without you killing the enemy.

However, no one wants fights that hard (or enemies that unbalanced). So you run the risk of what DA2 -having waves of enemies to make fights possible to lose (more enemies, more whittling down of the health bar over the course of the fight) and also feeling as if combat had no risk at all, with countless amounts of trash mobs offering no real threat.

A health bar that you have to watch over the course of an entire dungeon/area, every encounter, even against mook enemies, is vital, as it can add up and leave you weaker.

And tough enemies don't need to be INSANELY tough (or, as in DA2, with giant health bars requiring twenty minutes of kiting) because there is a very real chance the dungeon already wore you down before you got to them. So it would, in theory, make each encounter less tedium, more engagement. 

So bosses will be designed around you having 1/3 of your life? That sounds terribly boring.

[esper]

Ziggeh wrote...

esper wrote...
Everything I have heard so far as confirmed just drained my exicetment and now they have more and less promised backtracking or mindless waiting.... Yeah, not liking it.

"Making such assumptions and then deciding such assumptions don't make sense doesn't make for a very productive conversation." - David Gaider

Out of context but certainly applicable.

I have played enough games to know that no health regen + more open world means backtracking. Heck we apperently even get to be mounted (really another thing I do not care for) which means even more travelling distances. That is enough to lose my good faith.

I might be wrong, but that certainly doesn't matter since the willingness to pre-order or even buy the game depend on my good faith alone. Since so far it seems to be one of the games I will forget about once I am halfway through it, I am not preordering unless my exicitement is rekindled.

[Ziggeh]

esper wrote...

I have played enough games to know that no health regen + more open world means backtracking.

And it's not like they have access to the same information as you.

[esper]

Ziggeh wrote...

esper wrote...

I have played enough games to know that no health regen + more open world means backtracking.

And it's not like they have access to the same information as you.

Who are the 'they' you are talking about?

[FedericoV]

jvaz wrote...

Saw in the the latest tidbit of coverage that health will no longer regen after encounters........Interesting.  

That's one of the best news I've read about DA:I (beside no level scaling).

[GameHunter]

Why does no health regen mean automatic backtracking?
People don't want potion overuse in fights but don't want to be left without healing
options.
What if you had potion bag with restricted amount of potions per character or per party
for one fight could work since there wont be waves so you wont always run out.
So if potions were medium rarity obtainable consumable you couldn't
use all your potions to win a fight by potions but after fight you could heal
your health lack. If people are afraid of potion aholism consumable could be bandages.

Also having inhabitated territory is not always unlikely and maybe place could have a healer
who healed you for less gold than potions cost but for set amounts of health.

[Wulfram]

Filament wrote...

That's what planning is for. That tedium is also an option does not automatically mean the game is broken. Because the alternative makes planning pointless. Either way you're breaking something.

I have no idea what you're saying.  Are you suggesting you don't use "planning" without adding in these health grinding mechanics?

Planning in this case could be as simple as bringing more potions. I don't recall the economy ever being that harsh that you couldn't afford to stock up as such.

Using abundant health potions isn't planning, it's health regen with added busywork.

[esper]

GameHunter wrote...

Why does no health regen mean automatic backtracking?
People don't want potion overuse in fights but don't want to be left without healing
options.
What if you had potion bag with restricted amount of potions per character or per party
for one fight could work since there wont be waves so you wont always run out.
So if potions were medium rarity obtainable consumable you couldn't
use all your potions to win a fight by potions but after fight you could heal
your health lack. If people are afraid of potion aholism consumable could be bandages.

Also having inhabitated territory is not always unlikely and maybe place could have a healer
who healed you for less gold than potions cost but for set amounts of health.

I am not sure I understand you post right, because as far as I understand it you want to restict the number even more with limited number off potions so we can't spam them anymore and essentially have to rely on a healer. Something both of the other da games managed to avoid.

It means backtracking because we simply don't know the scope of this new 'larger' areas thus making it impossible for the players to predict just how much healing we need to prepare in advance, meaning that first time playing you will run into encounter you could not predict or an encounter that takes you by surprise draining your resources (and if we don't run into this it means that the fighting system is boringly easy). That basically mean that you have to reload a lot or backtrack.

And that is not what I am looking to do in an rpg.

(This is further strengten by the no level scaling thing, but that is another debate).

[cjones91]

Since I've played many games with no health regen, it just means I'll hoard potions like I usually do.