41 réponses à ce sujet

[Nefla]

Advantages? Pshh! I play for story/lore/roleplay reasons! Even in games like Skyrim where certain races have clear advantages I play what I want and make them a non fitting class if I feel it makes a more appealing character. Games like DA where a race star benefit or discount would be easily unnoticed, there is absolutely no reason I would ever choose a race for those reasons instead of story reasons.

[Mr.House]

Dwarfs resistance to magic should return for sure.

[WardenWade]

Faerunner wrote...

WardenWade wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

ladyiolanthe wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

ladyiolanthe wrote...

They did mention in one of the articles that playing an elf would get you advantages in places like elven alienages - you'd get more from the alienage elves than a human or a dwarf would. I assume similar holds true for dwarves.

Oh! That's actually a great idea!

To back myself up here's a quote. It's in the Game Informer article under the "Races Return" sidebar:

"The starting point for all characters is unified from a story perspective, but your racial choice still colours your interactions with others. For instance, elves may be persecuted in some areas, but an enclave of elves is more likely to open up to one of their own."

That's actually really great, both from a roleplay and gameplay perspective. I can't wait to see how this plays out!

I like this.  Exploring the cultures of the different races as a member rather than an "outsider" is something I always wanted from DAI.  And I think doing so might bring encourage players to enjoy the race options as well, much as with Origins.
 

Thank you, I agree. One of the reasons I love the elves is how they're family and community-centered. The entire Alienage or Clan is your family, not just your immediate nuclear relatives by blood, and how they stress helping each other. This was touched on in DA:O but couldn't be fully realized (understandably; they had a lot on their plates) so I  would also like to see it expanded upon here. =)

The sense of community is one of the things I like best about the elves, too   It will be great to explore this, maybe even attend the Arlathvhen (if possible) as an elf?  And we can search for red lyrium as a dwarf.  It can bring the story home in a different way each time, and encourage replay.

Modifié par WardenWade, 07 août 2013 - 03:30 .

[In Exile]

Faerunner wrote...
For DA:I, I propose increasing dwarf magic resistance to maybe 20-25% (again, making up for losing a class, and making it higher than magic-resistant items for first half or 3/4ths of the game) and the elves to maybe +5/+8 magic and +3/+5 mana so their stat bonuses are more noticeable? Plus/Or maybe give both dwarves and elves some extra physical stat points? That way, mage-friendly dwarves and non-magic elves can still be desirable.

That would just mean broken characters. There's a difference between making one group more appealing, and just punishing players who want to play as human, since the stat bonuses (like magic resistance) would apply to all NPCs. 

2) Discounts/Exclusive Items. In DA:O, Dwarf Nobles got a great discount from Gorim. I propose a similar feature for all non-humans for DA:I. Maybe have one or two dwarven vendors offer a dwarven protagonist discounts and/or specialty items for whatever reason: old friend, xenophobic, etc.  

Right back to punishing players.

3) More In-Game Acknowledgement. In DA:O, many players felt that not enough characters acknowledged the protagonist's race. I have more faith for DA:I since the devs have vowed to fix the lack of in-game acknowledgement like for ME backgrounds and DA Origins. Still, it bears repeating to include more frequent comments from NPC's, more in-depth conversations with companions, maybe a race-specific quest or two, etc.

I think this is where the key is, and IMO, the only key.

4) Cooler appearances. For DA:O, many people felt the elves were "just slim pointy-eared humans," and the dwarves "just short, guerilla-armed humans." In fact, many female players felt that elven women were less attractive than human women (which I sadly agree with), and dwarven women had ugly orangutan arms, qne I've actually seen many female players claim to pick human women just to look prettier.  

I don't think there's a way to make dwarves aesthetically pleasing and still have them recognizable as dwarves, but that's IMO. 

So, your turn. Any thoughts, suggestions, hopefully fairly easily(ish) implemented ideas that you think can help make non-human protagonists more desirable than the first game, and thus more worth the investment?

I would focus on exclusive branching content and meaningful race reactions on the part of your companions and, really, every part of the world. 

Modifié par In Exile, 07 août 2013 - 03:45 .

[Shadow Fox]

In Exile wrote...

Faerunner wrote...
For DA:I, I propose increasing dwarf magic resistance to maybe 20-25% (again, making up for losing a class, and making it higher than magic-resistant items for first half or 3/4ths of the game) and the elves to maybe +5/+8 magic and +3/+5 mana so their stat bonuses are more noticeable? Plus/Or maybe give both dwarves and elves some extra physical stat points? That way, mage-friendly dwarves and non-magic elves can still be desirable.

That would just mean broken characters. There's a difference between making one group more appealing, and just punishing players who want to play as human, since the stat bonuses (like magic resistance) would apply to all NPCs. 

2) Discounts/Exclusive Items. In DA:O, Dwarf Nobles got a great discount from Gorim. I propose a similar feature for all non-humans for DA:I. Maybe have one or two dwarven vendors offer a dwarven protagonist discounts and/or specialty items for whatever reason: old friend, xenophobic, etc.  

Right back to punishing players.

3) More In-Game Acknowledgement. In DA:O, many players felt that not enough characters acknowledged the protagonist's race. I have more faith for DA:I since the devs have vowed to fix the lack of in-game acknowledgement like for ME backgrounds and DA Origins. Still, it bears repeating to include more frequent comments from NPC's, more in-depth conversations with companions, maybe a race-specific quest or two, etc.

I think this is where the key is, and IMO, the only key.

4) Cooler appearances. For DA:O, many people felt the elves were "just slim pointy-eared humans," and the dwarves "just short, guerilla-armed humans." In fact, many female players felt that elven women were less attractive than human women (which I sadly agree with), and dwarven women had ugly orangutan arms, qne I've actually seen many female players claim to pick human women just to look prettier.  

I don't think there's a way to make dwarves aesthetically pleasing and still have them recognizable as dwarves, but that's IMO. 

So, your turn. Any thoughts, suggestions, hopefully fairly easily(ish) implemented ideas that you think can help make non-human protagonists more desirable than the first game, and thus more worth the investment?

I would focus on exclusive branching content and meaningful race reactions on the part of your companions and, really, every part of the world. 

Like how Dwarf/Elf players were punished in Origins?

[PsychoBlonde]

 I will play a dwarf if I finally get to romance Varric.  He cute.

[In Exile]

Faerunner wrote...
I just don't want the developers to say later that it wasn't worth the effort or they don't plan on offer race selections in the future because not enough people played this time, because they made the same mistakes as DA:O, because they didn't try examining why race selection didn't do as well in DA:O or try incentivizing the races this time around.

But despite all that, Bioware is offering race choice because of how much it matters to us core fans. I might not care very much about the dwarven option myself, but I'm happy for it to be there for the players who enjoy it, and I'm excited for the chance to have an elf PC again. 

More importantly, you actually buy Bioware's justification for why races are out, or why they're back in? They're out because they thought players didn't care, and because it was very costly cinematic-wise to have them in. Theyre' still costly, because Bioware is scrapping multiple backgrounds for the PC in favour of racial backgrounds. 

Races back in because players obviously care, and Bioware is fighting to restore its public imagine with DA. Even if somehow races weren't popular in DAI, the backlash to removing them again would be severe enough that Bioware would have to be crazy to do it. 

Anyway, I think that the right way to create incentives to play different races is to lock out specializations. For example, only elves can become Arcane Warriors. 

Only human nobles got Mabari before Lothering and got to be royalty at the end while even dwarven nobles couldn't (who were in line for the Orzammar throne at one point);

The mabari wasn't accessible for the HN during Ostagar at all, and the dwarven PC became a paragon. That's a living ancestor - it's a higher honour than anyone else could even come close to aspiring. Look at how much weight Branka had compared to Bhelen. 

the devs eliminated race options entirely from the sequel on supposedly on account of too few players touching them in DA:O and refused to bring them back for DA:I for months no matter how much it disappointed elf/dwarf fans, and you're accusing a few proposed advantages to incentivize race selection so the feature can stay punishing the eternally popular and always guaranteed human characters?

Let's hold off on the melodrama. Bioware brought back racial choice because of how important it was to fans like yourself, and your reaction is to try and make humans incredibly unapealing for the majority because .... what, exactly? 

Indeed, because people only played the HN on account of roleplay pleasure and never because they got solid, measurable gameplay advantages like the only ones that got the Mabari before Lothering, or the ability to marry Alistair/Anora and become queen/king of an entire nation at the end, while no other origin could (including the dwarf noble, who was once in line for the Orzammar throne).

I already addressed the mabari point. As for marrying Anora, she straight up tells you that she's going to wear the pants in that relationship and that you won't be King, but Prince Consort. 

And, frankly, the City Elf had by far the best in-game content in the Alienage and, moreover, had a personal relationship with - IMO - the strongest character in the game, Shianni. You came back to the alienage multiple times, and in the end you could really push for equality for your people by freeing the alienage. 

I think that the CE story was by far the most reward, and in terms of personal standing, the dwarven stories (culminating in becoming a paragon), were far better. 

Aesthetically pleasing is to the eye of the beholder, though cool =/= beautiful.  

There was a pretty big IMO there. To me, a character can't be cool without looking cool, and part of looking cool is being beautiful (in my subjective estimation).
 

Fair enough. I'd settle on each race getting treated fairly equally by the overall narrative and not one race being touted as the default, getting catered to by the narrative, and getting the best quantifiable roleplay and gameplay advantages while all the others are treated as minor add-ons and then being scrapped in future games because many players reacted to them that way.

I can't do anything about the hysterical reaction to the lack of elves in DA2, but I continue to object to the idea that the elves and dwarves somehow weren't treated as the narrative, or that humans were "touted" as the default. 

[Nightdragon8]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

I don't understand what's going on here.

In a single player narrative driven game where the racial choice has story implications do people really pick characters based on minor statistical advantage?

Surely you pick them because they lend an immediate identifiable perspective. And because dwarves are better.

Hear, hear!

Though I do understand the point that the OP is trying to make, and I applaud it. Trying out new races should be its own reward, though other incentives are great too. For me those big incentives were the prologues and epilogues of DA:O.

I have been literally shaking with delight at getting to play a dwarf again, but I will probably eventually play all options (even though I have to be a human all day in real life).

yes they do. if you don't think so, look in on most D&D games, all known as Min/Max kind of gameplay.

[In Exile]

Here's a different idea (it's tied to a gameplay idea that Fast Jimmy had).

First, the general gameplay idea is that mages, to cast uber spells, would need a supply of lyrium. We know that, via DA:O lore, raw lyrium is toxic to mages. What if dwarves could convert that to the usabe lyrium necessary for "limit break" type spells for mages?

The dwarf PC could craft it on the spot, but other race PCs would need to prepare ahead of time. That would totally change the dynamic of creating mages as PCs too.

[Saberchic]

This is an RPG. I don't need an incentive to play as a non-human character. I always have playthroughs with different races if possible. I get so confused by people who only play human. It's so limiting.

[In Exile]

Faerunner wrote...
If throwing out little suggestions and easily implemented ideas now can help make race selection more popular when the game comes out, so the devs feel it was worth the effort and not just the less of two unattractive options (leave them out and fans ****, put them in and not enough people play or like them to justify the man hours), then I'm glad I made this thread.

Don't get me wrong - I think the thread is a great idea. I just don't think the right is to effectively give lots of blatant stat bonuses. I don't have a problem with the upping spell resistance to dwarves, for example.  

But was still usable during the hour-long Origin and after the Joining Ritual.

Every Origin had temporary combat companions - Barkspawn () just happens to be pernament after it. And after the joining you otherwise get a human NPC. 

Different name for the same position. You're still king in practice, just through marriage instead of inheritance.

No, you're not. That's the whole point: Anora makes you take the title so you know your place. 

In-universe. Out-of-universe, players flocked to the HN Origin en masse to marry Alistair or Anora and become Queen or King of Ferelden. I've seen a lot of people who played or planned on playing Dwarf Nobles who said "WTF is this?!" when they found out they got denied two thrones, Orzammar and Ferelden, and went to the HN instead.

It's one thing to say that this is how players felt - though I will add for the record I was incredibly dissapointed with the HN because I don't, and never, felt that it allowed you to become King in a meaningful way. 

It's another thing to say that the game offered more rewarding content for humans as a matter of design, when it looks to me that they offered (on paper) equal if not greater rewards for the dwarf.

You're the one who said "punish human players" for daring to suggest ways to make non-humans more desirable. Let's talk about melodrama there.

No. I was the one who said you're punishing players who chose human when elves are getting 3 levels worth of stat bonuses. 

My intention is not to make humans unappealing, but to make non-humans more appealing. If that's the same thing to you, I'm sorry.

As I've said repeatedly, it isn't. 

I agree about the City Elf having by far the best in-game content (I'm sure you figured), though I feel compelled to mention the heart-breaking epilogues. No matter what choices you make, the epilogue slides reveal that all pushes for equality crumble within a few years.

To me, that makes it a better, not worse, origin. But I like my stories bittersweet. And to me, it would diminish the plight of the elves if some backwater hero is all it took to fix everything. 

Since elves have +3 Magic and +2 Mana, one can only assume people were drawn by the gameplay advantages, which is why I stress gameplay advantages as well as roleplay advantages in this thread.

And humans had +1 strength, +1 dexterity, +1 magic, +1 cunning. Also, it was +2 magic and +2 willpower for elves. So that actually makes it +1 magic and +2 willpower in comparison. 

DA:O had a different (and in the endgame, meaningless) stat distribution. 

When you go to the Character Creation, the Male Human Noble is the "default" selection. In DA2, when you click on pre-generated history icons, the "Male Human Noble that made Alistair King" is the default. Most players mentioned how they felt the HN Origin was "right" or "most central" to the plot. Most people seem to like playing the default, and thus overwhelmingly humans when they're presented as the default.

Are you going to argue that DA:O discriminated against mages for making non-mage origin the default option too, and that DA:I should incentive playing as a mage more?

I also think the HN story felt "right" for DA:O, but that's just because I felt that DA:O failed to really portray the racial inequality of being an elf. 

If little tweeks can make race selection more appealing so it doesn't get buried or scrapped for future games, then I'll keep suggesting.

Again - I'm for it. I just disagree on the uber stat bonuses. 

Modifié par In Exile, 08 août 2013 - 12:09 .

[Xilizhra]

What I would love most of all, personally, is race-based philosophical/religious positions that you can bring up in roleplaying in more in-depth ways than could be done in DAO, which I believe would work especially well for elves, whom I'd enjoy seeing in a more pro-Dalish capacity even if that's not their literal origin.