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[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Starkid: Psychological Profile
Spacer:

• Your mom is visiting you on earth, you see her die in the reaper invasion, she becomes your "catalyst" during the dreams and ending.
• The environment of your dreams is an uncharted world similar to mass effect 1.

Colonist:

• The girl from "I remember me" is at an alliance rehab on earth, visits shepard on her/his way to the trial, dies during the reaper attack. (She could be doing better, with hope for having a normal life thanks to shepard saving her)
• If you let her die in me1 then it defaults to the kid.
• The environment of your dreams is a destroyed colony.  (Maybe horizon or freedom's progress from me2 inspired)

Earthborn:

• This shepard is earthborn and would be closer tied to earth, so it might make more sense for them to sort of reflect on seeing that kid in parralel to themselves.
• The environment of your dreams is the field of trees from the game now.

Dreams: Pre-Service History
War Hero:

• You try to save the dream-catalyst (child, mom, colonist) in your dreams and your reaction to these deaths is what we got, sorrow for your inability to save them.
• Approaches dream-catalyst with arms outstretched and a desire to protect them.
• In the final dream another shepard approaches the dream-catalyst and embraces them.  (Basically what we got)

Sole Survivor:

• Rather than sorrow, this shepard reacts in a more shocked manner, devastated by the losses arround him/her.  Approaches dream-catalyst in a neutral manner.
• Reacts in a more distraught manner to dream-catalyst.
• In the final dream the dream-catalyst falls down and cowers as it burns up as shepard simply looks on and closes their eyes.

Ruthless:

• This Shepard reacts with anger at the death on london.
• has a neutral/confused response in the dreams.
• In the final dream they simply walk past the burning dream-catalyst holding an assault rifle.

Not only would this have allowed for some cool mixes, it would have left the emotional core tailored to your personal shepard in a way that goes all the way back to your game in Mass Effect 1.  It would have also given all those renegade shepards who picked ruthless a more in-line response.  (War Hero and Earthborn would be a mix that gives us what we currently have, for example)

Modifié par Doctor_Jackstraw, 07 août 2013 - 01:06 .

[David7204]

This really doesn't solve the actual problem of Shepard caring about people the player doesn't care about.

[DeinonSlayer]

They left the backstories deliberately vague so players could headcanon the details for themselves. I'd rather they not fill in details after the fact. I had two Ruthless Shepards, and I pictured them both having behaved very differently on Torfan.

An easier solution would be to have huskified squadmates following you, or something similar.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 07 août 2013 - 01:04 .

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

David7204 wrote...

This really doesn't solve the actual problem of Shepard caring about people the player doesn't care about.

Yes it does.  if you played me1 the spacer and colonist quests are characters that people actually made character threads for.  i cried during the quest "I remember me", if I'd taken that shepard into me3 and seen that girl i connected with get killed by the reapers it would have devastated me.

People are big fans of mom-shep, and its easy to ask the player to care about someone's direct family in a story.  thats one thing that people will willingly accept as a motivating factor in any story.

Modifié par Doctor_Jackstraw, 07 août 2013 - 01:08 .

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

They left the backstories deliberately vague so players could headcanon the details for themselves. I'd rather they not fill in details after the fact. I had two Ruthless Shepards, and I pictured them both having behaved very differently on Torfan.

An easier solution would be to have huskified squadmates following you, or something similar.

I didnt say anything about torfan.
  Also no, modeling alternate, reaperfied versions of 17 characters, and then making the dreams about shepard running from them, is insane not only from a workload perspective but that idea makes you seem like a coward.  (most of the squad deaths in the series dont even have to do with the reapers, many of the me3 squad potential deaths are shepard kills)

Modifié par Doctor_Jackstraw, 07 août 2013 - 01:11 .

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

This really doesn't solve the actual problem of Shepard caring about people the player doesn't care about.

Stop being reasonable!

I agree though.  Since the child was seemingly just thrown in without audience engagement or investment in his fate, any focus on him would be ill advised.

Mentioning him to garrus is one thing... having him plague your nightmares, and be the shape of the Catalyst is another.

[DeinonSlayer]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

They left the backstories deliberately vague so players could headcanon the details for themselves. I'd rather they not fill in details after the fact. I had two Ruthless Shepards, and I pictured them both having behaved very differently on Torfan.

An easier solution would be to have huskified squadmates following you, or something similar.

I didnt say anything about torfan.

The backstory doesn't dictate Shepard's emotional reaction, however. A ruthless paragade roleplayed as The Atoner throughout the trilogy might not react with anger by default.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 07 août 2013 - 01:12 .

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

StreetMagic wrote...

My earthborn Shep wouldn't necessarily see that kid in themselves. Earthborn Shep is an orphan and ex-gang member. Probably was a drug courier or stole a lot as a kid. Learned how to survive on his own. Probably a smartass punk.

I probably wrote it weird, but what i mean more is...the idea of "This represents planet earth to shepard" would kind of make sense for an earthborn, since they grew up on earth at least, and the child represents potential, which is what shepard achieved when he/she dragged themselves out of ganglife and into an respectable military life.  having a colonist shepard be as attached as an earthborn was weird, and never hearing from those me1 personal sidequest characters again was weird since some of them have elicited such huge emotional connections with players of the spacer and colonist backstories.

Modifié par Doctor_Jackstraw, 07 août 2013 - 01:15 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

My earthborn Shep wouldn't necessarily see that kid in themselves. Earthborn Shep is an orphan and ex-gang member. Probably was a drug courier or stole a lot as a kid. Learned how to survive on his own. Probably a smartass punk.

I probably wrote it weird, but what i mean more is...the idea of "This represents planet earth to shepard" would kind of make sense for an earthborn, since they grew up on earth at least, and the child represents potential, which is what shepard achieved when he/she dragged themselves out of ganglife and into an respectable military life.  having a colonist shepard be as attached as an earthborn was weird, and never hearing from those me1 personal sidequest characters again was weird since some of them have elicited such huge emotional connections with players of the spacer and colonist backstories.

Tell me about it...

Shepard, you were born on Mindoir and voiced your intent to build a house on Rannoch after the war. Earth is not, never was, and was never going to be "home."

Autodialogue FTW.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

They left the backstories deliberately vague so players could headcanon the details for themselves. I'd rather they not fill in details after the fact. I had two Ruthless Shepards, and I pictured them both having behaved very differently on Torfan.

An easier solution would be to have huskified squadmates following you, or something similar.

I didnt say anything about torfan.

The backstory doesn't dictate Shepard's emotional reaction, however. A ruthless paragade roleplayed as The Atoner throughout the trilogy might not react with anger by default.

the idea is that ruthless shepard continues the fight, unflinching in their purpose to destroy the reapers, just like on torfan, not that they're ambivilant to the suffering of others.  it works for both whatevergons and full on renegade players.  (people who like hitting renegade interupts because they feel cool pushing a guy out a window felt awful watching their shepard try to adopt this dream kid in me3)

Modifié par Doctor_Jackstraw, 07 août 2013 - 01:21 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

They left the backstories deliberately vague so players could headcanon the details for themselves. I'd rather they not fill in details after the fact. I had two Ruthless Shepards, and I pictured them both having behaved very differently on Torfan.

An easier solution would be to have huskified squadmates following you, or something similar.

I didnt say anything about torfan.

The backstory doesn't dictate Shepard's emotional reaction, however. A ruthless paragade roleplayed as The Atoner throughout the trilogy might not react with anger by default.

the idea is that ruthless shepard continues the fight, not that they're ambivilant to the suffering of others.  it works for both whatevergons and full on renegade players.  (people who like hitting renegade interupts because they feel cool pushing a guy out a window felt awful watching their shepard try to adopt this dream kid in me3)

True, the roleplaying opportunities for TrollShep were limited in ME3.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

They left the backstories deliberately vague so players could headcanon the details for themselves. I'd rather they not fill in details after the fact. I had two Ruthless Shepards, and I pictured them both having behaved very differently on Torfan.

An easier solution would be to have huskified squadmates following you, or something similar.

I didnt say anything about torfan.

The backstory doesn't dictate Shepard's emotional reaction, however. A ruthless paragade roleplayed as The Atoner throughout the trilogy might not react with anger by default.

the idea is that ruthless shepard continues the fight, not that they're ambivilant to the suffering of others.  it works for both whatevergons and full on renegade players.  (people who like hitting renegade interupts because they feel cool pushing a guy out a window felt awful watching their shepard try to adopt this dream kid in me3)

True, the roleplaying opportunities for TrollShep were limited in ME3.

trollsheps would have liked seeing their shepard just be coolguy in dreams rather than....what we got.

[shingara]

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

This really doesn't solve the actual problem of Shepard caring about people the player doesn't care about.

Stop being reasonable!

I agree though.  Since the child was seemingly just thrown in without audience engagement or investment in his fate, any focus on him would be ill advised.

Mentioning him to garrus is one thing... having him plague your nightmares, and be the shape of the Catalyst is another.

 I dunno about nightmares, i mean was it just me that wanted to throw a match at that kid. I just know someone should have thrown a match on the peice of paper they write the kid idea on and just gone away and done the dark energy line.

Modifié par shingara, 07 août 2013 - 04:18 .

[BronzTrooper]

I think that the forest environment fits well with the Colonist background, as Mindior was a small colony and likely had forests nearby the settlement Shepard grew up in.

I think Sole Survivor would be better if Shepard saw the soldiers that were in their unit on Akuze and when s/he tried to walk to them, they'd vanish. In the final dream, Shepard would see himself/herself amongst their unit.

Modifié par Gamer072196, 07 août 2013 - 02:19 .

[Wayning_Star]

Don't sound like a bad idea, but the kid as a personality isn't gonna work, after you find yourself up there with it. You know that you've bitten off more than you can chew, just from the emanation of raw energy. Imagine, a billions years old machine tapping powers from who knows what, now hooked up the biggest dry cell battery known.. Then is talks to you and seems to want to make a deal, or a compromise. A ten year old human kid... sure, back story "could" help with identifying with it..lol First thing I thought of when playing the game and seen the catalyst.. the phrase out of Predator " Do you want some candy?"

The dreams seems to run along side of the prothean artifacts, etc. The cypher gizmo and reaper tech, even reaperships them selves that 'talked' to Shep about stuff. When Shep ran up to the catalyst and it seemed to be all dream state up to the point of decision. Ends up back on Earth.. It all gets so alien, it seems association with that higher force leaves out human identity, or identifying with the reapership captain all together. IMHO..that is.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Don't sound like a bad idea, but the kid as a personality isn't gonna work, after you find yourself up there with it. You know that you've bitten off more than you can chew, just from the emanation of raw energy. Imagine, a billions years old machine tapping powers from who knows what, now hooked up the biggest dry cell battery known.. Then is talks to you and seems to want to make a deal, or a compromise. A ten year old human kid... sure, back story "could" help with identifying with it..lol First thing I thought of when playing the game and seen the catalyst.. the phrase out of Predator " Do you want some candy?"

The dreams seems to run along side of the prothean artifacts, etc. The cypher gizmo and reaper tech, even reaperships them selves that 'talked' to Shep about stuff. When Shep ran up to the catalyst and it seemed to be all dream state up to the point of decision. Ends up back on Earth.. It all gets so alien, it seems association with that higher force leaves out human identity, or identifying with the reapership captain all together. IMHO..that is.

it really should have just been a mess of digital energy like vigil in me1, talking to a frank machine instead of something that seems like its trying to manipulate shepard....mighta worked better. 

[Wayning_Star]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Don't sound like a bad idea, but the kid as a personality isn't gonna work, after you find yourself up there with it. You know that you've bitten off more than you can chew, just from the emanation of raw energy. Imagine, a billions years old machine tapping powers from who knows what, now hooked up the biggest dry cell battery known.. Then is talks to you and seems to want to make a deal, or a compromise. A ten year old human kid... sure, back story "could" help with identifying with it..lol First thing I thought of when playing the game and seen the catalyst.. the phrase out of Predator " Do you want some candy?"

The dreams seems to run along side of the prothean artifacts, etc. The cypher gizmo and reaper tech, even reaperships them selves that 'talked' to Shep about stuff. When Shep ran up to the catalyst and it seemed to be all dream state up to the point of decision. Ends up back on Earth.. It all gets so alien, it seems association with that higher force leaves out human identity, or identifying with the reapership captain all together. IMHO..that is.

it really should have just been a mess of digital energy like vigil in me1, talking to a frank machine instead of something that seems like its trying to manipulate shepard....mighta worked better. 

it looked at us as children would be my guess as to the inferred association between that machine and humanity as Shep speaks for/acts as well. To me that is exactly what it was, just looked kind of like a kid Shep saw before. I think that the dreams with the kid in them was the catalyst attempting communication with shep, just like/similar to the leviathan under the water did.

The leviathan meeting seemed way more violent to me. They 'took' Shepard and he/she has to think fast as to what to say to sway them not to just enthrall him/her. Mean bunch those Leviathan survivors. They might of just been irked as Shepard exposed their hideout to the reaperships...yikes!

[TheIdiocyWizard2.0]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
Tell me about it...

Shepard, you were born on Mindoir and voiced your intent to build a house on Rannoch after the war. Earth is not, never was, and was never going to be "home."

Autodialogue FTW.

Man, I thought I was the ony one who was bothered by this. Even Spacer shep, who granted would probably have a closer connection to Earth than a colony kid, wouldn't feel this distraught over Earth being attacked. I can understand being distraught over the deaths of millions of innocents, sure, but not just because Earth itself was attacked.

[Wolfva2]

David7204 wrote...

This really doesn't solve the actual problem of Shepard caring about people the player doesn't care about.

Then don't play games with pre-rolled characters.  After all, we may be playing Shep, but he's still his own person, and we have to play him within that framework.  Ie, an honorable, persistant, soldier who will do what it takes to accomplish his mission.  He's going to care about people the player may not.  Get over it.

Heck, I almost didn't buy ME for that reason; I tend to stay away from games with pre-rolled characters.  But I was so floored by DA:O that I grudgingly bought ME against my better judgement.  Glad I did.  Same with Deus Ex: Human Revolution.  Finally got around to buying it; another good move.  Looks like I'm 2 for 2.

Apropos of nothing, the best game for a fully customizable character, I think, is Fallout3.  You start out as a fetus being born, make some decisions on how you'll look, then jump ahead to a Toddler where you make stat decisions, then you're 10, more decisions, a teenager, and finally...the game begins.  I must have laughed for 5 minutes when I realized I was the baby being born.

Oh yeah, the topic.  As far as the kid goes, it makes sense from a PTSD point of view.  Shep sees the kid playing before the invasion; later he tries to save him but the kid runs away.  He then sees the kid almost get to safety and BLAMMO!  Kid is a crispy critter.  I've written in depth thesii on this subject already, and don't feel like doing it again, but yeah, it's actually psychologically sound that a person like Shep...one who spends his entire life keeping people safe by being the 'tip of the spear' would be haunted by the kid he couldn't save.

1 death is a tragedy; a thousand deaths a statistic.

Modifié par Wolfva2, 07 août 2013 - 06:41 .

[o Ventus]

Wolfva2 wrote...

Then don't play games with pre-rolled characters.  After all, we may be playing Shep, but he's still his own person, and we have to play him within that framework.  Ie, an honorable, persistant, soldier who will do what it takes to accomplish his mission.  He's going to care about people the player may not.  Get over it.

I would just like to point out that "honorable" and "will do whatever it takes" are antonymous.

Modifié par o Ventus, 07 août 2013 - 08:31 .

[Bourne Endeavor]

While a decent idea. This still forces emotion on Shepard the player may dislike. For instance, Cass-Shepard already dealt with PTSD prior to the events of ME1. That was my personal headcanon and what I used to shape her character. ME1 and ME2 maintained a degree of vagueness that allowed player imagination to fill in blanks - merely handing out the template. What bothers people is BioWare abruptly deciding in the third game to yank control away and insert their own presumptions of development.

Personally, I ignore the dream sequences in every file.

@Ventus

Misread that first part as your post. No wondering it seemed so out of place. 

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 07 août 2013 - 08:26 .

[Bourne Endeavor]

Wolfva2 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

This really doesn't solve the actual problem of Shepard caring about people the player doesn't care about.

Then don't play games with pre-rolled characters.  After all, we may be playing Shep, but he's still his own person, and we have to play him within that framework.  Ie, an honorable, persistant, soldier who will do what it takes to accomplish his mission.  He's going to care about people the player may not.  Get over it.

Except Shepard was only vaguely defined originally. BioWare provided a template and the player can headcanon the rest as they saw fit. Only in ME3 did this change for reasons I need not reiterate. BioWare merely had to maintain the status quo or offer varied dialogue opens, allowing us to characterise Shepard. Hell, a neutral option would have helped.

Seeing autodialogue was second only to the endings in fan backlash. "Getting over it" may have repercussions BioWare would do well to avoid.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 07 août 2013 - 08:32 .

[nos_astra]

o Ventus wrote...

Wolfva2 wrote...

Then don't play games with pre-rolled characters.  After all, we may be playing Shep, but he's still his own person, and we have to play him within that framework.  Ie, an honorable, persistant, soldier who will do what it takes to accomplish his mission.  He's going to care about people the player may not.  Get over it.

I would just like to point out that "honorable" and "will do whatever it takes" are antonymous.

Not in a video game like ME. It's pretty much standard to shoot people in the face because why the hell not (and being part of the wrong faction is punishable by death anyway) unless they are given a name and maybe ask for mercy ... then I pardon you. Shepard the good. Also Shepard the naive, Shepard the moron...

[Seboist]

klarabella wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Wolfva2 wrote...

Then don't play games with pre-rolled characters.  After all, we may be playing Shep, but he's still his own person, and we have to play him within that framework.  Ie, an honorable, persistant, soldier who will do what it takes to accomplish his mission.  He's going to care about people the player may not.  Get over it.

I would just like to point out that "honorable" and "will do whatever it takes" are antonymous.

Not in a video game like ME. It's pretty much standard to shoot people in the face because why the hell not (and being part of the wrong faction is punishable by death anyway) unless they are given a name and maybe ask for mercy ... then I pardon you. Shepard the good. Also Shepard the naive, Shepard the moron...

I love how BW has me ruthlessly slaughter hundreds of mercs but then expects me to seriously ponder whether or not i should kill that one guy by the glass in Thane's LM.