132 réponses à ce sujet

[alikilar]

i really hated the dynasty warriors feel of the really fast paced combat in DA2 but in DAO it was too slow...a blend of these two will make combat perfect

[Cainhurst Crow]

I just want combat where I do not need to rely on auto-attack for a default attack, where my character responds quickly and almost instantly to my commands, and where combat has a faster pace than watching molasses colored paint drying.

[Cainhurst Crow]

It needs to change, in order to improve. Progress is needed, and I see no reason DA should be exempt from evolution and hybridization.

Slow, sluggish, unresponsive, auto-attack based rng luck combat may have worked for the 90's, but this is the 2010's. Things cannot be allowed to stagnate in gameplay. That is how cheap, lazy, cashgrab games like mario happen. It has become nothing but a simple begginers game, a first step in gaming kept alive out of nostalgia, dedicated zealot fans, and an indoctrinated generation of young children whose parents have sworn fealty to the all-mighty nintendo corporation.

Frankly, I just want more dynamic combat, where it feels like I am actually contributing to the battle more than the game is controlling my character for me, and at a faster pace. Nothing else need change in the game from dragon age origins, except maybe a voiced protag. But that is a negligible point and simply preference.

What makes your point of view better, however? That I must leave the fandom for my beliefs of progress and hybridism in gameplay, while you are allowed to stay?

[Cainhurst Crow]

That is a lot more text than I was expecting.

[Cainhurst Crow]

None would survive the papery flood of your wrath. XD

Most of what I feel is subjective, true. It's why I don't expect any of it to be meet. But It doesn't hurt to voice it either. So it's really a win/win/lose situation for me.

[Melca36]

Angrywolves wrote...

DA2 combat no.
Waves of enemies parachuting in no.
Don't know how some people thought that was right in DA2.

You mean like this??



I think people better face the reality that combat will not be like DA2s. I also dont expect it to be like Origins. Its a new game engine and most people want to do more than hack and slashing their way out of a situation.

[Foolsfolly]

alikilar wrote...

i really hated the dynasty warriors feel of the really fast paced combat in DA2 but in DAO it was too slow...a blend of these two will make combat perfect

The too slow thing wasn't even the worst part. Most characters moved like drunken refrigerator boxes. Melee characters would line up to attack, if an enemy kept running they'd never swing a sword, archers were just as bad at times when they'd track a moving target but not attack until they were lined up just right.

So I did like the responsiveness in DA2. I liked the speed in which orders were enacted. I liked Obscure. I loved Cross Class Combos. I liked how we got more Tactics slots and we didn't have to invest skill points into them to get them.

So a mix of the two games seems right. I want the tactical feel of one but I want actions to be carried out quickly without preamble.

[devSin]

Foolsfolly wrote...

The too slow thing wasn't even the worst part. Most characters moved like drunken refrigerator boxes. Melee characters would line up to attack, if an enemy kept running they'd never swing a sword, archers were just as bad at times when they'd track a moving target but not attack until they were lined up just right.

It had nothing to do with "lining up".

It's just that the mechanics were divorced from the visuals enough that it often didn't feel synchronized. The enemy kept running, and you didn't swing at him, because you can only make a certain number of attack actions within a certain time period (so unless you were ready to swing, you couldn't, and you'd either have to chase him or you'd miss your chance). Or you swung and hit, but the length of the swing animation is great enough that when it came time to apply the results (the damage), the enemy wouldn't even be close to you anymore (the enemy was hit when the calculation was made, but it's that lack of synchronization between what you can see and what's actually going on). Similarly, archery was controlled by an aim time and attack rate—it would take so long to shoot, and you could only shoot so often, and this was true regardless of what you actually saw on the screen (if you didn't shoot, it's because you hadn't finished aiming or you weren't yet ready to make an attack).

Rules-based combat is supposed to behave this way (and DA2 does behave this way, although they did quite a bit of work to minimize the most noticeable effects of it). Asking to not have so many instances of poor synchronization is fine, but it's not the same as asking for twitch gameplay (which is an entirely different type of gameplay, which no DA game has so far represented).

Modifié par devSin, 08 août 2013 - 05:37 .

[Foolsfolly]

devSin wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

The too slow thing wasn't even the worst part. Most characters moved like drunken refrigerator boxes. Melee characters would line up to attack, if an enemy kept running they'd never swing a sword, archers were just as bad at times when they'd track a moving target but not attack until they were lined up just right.

It had nothing to do with "lining up".

It's just that the mechanics were divorced from the visuals enough that it often didn't feel synchronized. The enemy kept running, and you didn't swing at him, because you can only make a certain number of attack actions within a certain time period (so unless you were ready to swing, you couldn't, and you'd either have to chase him or you'd miss your chance). Or you swung and hit, but the length of the swing animation is great enough that when it came time to apply the results (the damage), the enemy wouldn't even be close to you anymore (the enemy was hit when the calculation was made, but it's that lack of synchronization between what you can see and what's actually going on). Similarly, archery was controlled by an aim time (with minimum and maximum lengths) and attack count—it would take so long to shoot, and you could only shoot so often, and this was true regardless of what you actually saw on the screen (if you didn't shoot, it's because you hadn't finished aiming or you weren't yet ready to make an attack).

Rules-based combat is supposed to behave this way (and DA2 does behave this way, although they did quite a bit of work to minimize the most noticeable effects of it). Asking to not have so many instances of poor synchronization is fine, but it's not the same as asking for twitch gameplay (which is an entirely different type of gameplay, which no DA game has so far represented).

Not a game designer, buddy.

"Line up" is how I describe it when the unit has to position perfectly before they could attack. Especially if they do that weird little waltz around it before striking.

[devSin]

There wasn't really any element of position to it, however (except for the rudimentary cover system).

You had to be in range when the attack was made, but other than that, the game was just showing you stuff that looked reasonable. It didn't matter at all when it came to the time you attacked (which is based on an underlying rule that's not directly manipulatable by you) or the result of the attack (again, except for their cover system).

In a twitch-based system, you click the button and an attack happens, and if there's something in the way of whatever you swing or shoot, it hits; DA2 attempted to disguise a lot of the silly synchronization issues, but it's still a fully rules-based system.

Modifié par devSin, 08 août 2013 - 05:55 .

[Fredward]

There wouldn't be space for actual twitch based gameplay and "tactical" gameplay in ONE game. And if there has to be one there's no choice at all for me. And DA2 wasn't twitch. It was just fast. And honestly when I saw that clip of whoever hitting something with a sword I immediatly missed DA2's speed.

And yes I realize it's early days and it can still change, I'm just sayin'.

[giveamanafish...]

DODGING
Its been a while since I played DA 2 but I seem to remember being able to get the controlled character to dodge the odd melee attack. Assuming my memory is correct, it would have added to my enjoyment of the game. (Always Nightmare). The dice roll combat mechanism was much more of a issue in DAO. In a recent playthru, in the fight with Loghain, where he was using a 2-handed sword, it was impossible to dodge his attacks. I would send Alister half way across the room from Loghain's swinging sword, yards away from Loghain's er tip, and he would still receive damage (numbers may have been reduced, but really). I don't see that adding swing arc and distance calculations to the attack calculations would take away from the gameplay, rather would add to it and as well add to the overall tactical challenge involved. Again, may have already been done.

RESPONSIVENESS
DAO gameplay can be unresponsive in that a controlled character, especially with a 2-hander would have to set up an attack usually by distancing, after being issued a special attack command. There also does seem to be a time lag in movement commands which makes it difficult to dodge or step outside an attack. (Some of it just comes down to weak AI: you would send a tank to intercept a charging enemy and the tank would move toward the spot on the map where the enemy was when you issued the command, then pull a u-turn and chase after the enemy just in time to watch him put Morrigan out of her misery. This would often happen where the enemy was charging by w/in a sword swing or a shoulder block distance away from the tank (who probably didn't like Morrigan that much any way). I had so much fun with this last one I just needed to point it out).

PARACHUTES
I personally hope that enemies appearing out of nowhere, as in DAII, continue as a game feature, at least at the highest difficulty. Random placements would be good, and they should probably mix it up with how it was done on DAO where the really dangerous enemies, Emissaries and the like, would often be hidden in the far reaches of or beyond view in the overhead mini-map.

Modifié par ismoketoomuch, 08 août 2013 - 06:06 .

[devSin]

ismoketoomuch wrote...

Its been a while since I played DA 2 but I seem to remember being able to get the controlled character to dodge the odd melee attack.

Yes. This is one of the better changes (and eliminated the silly situation of being half a screen away when you finally saw the damage get applied).

For at least some attacks, it mattered where you were when it came time to apply damage (or it just never got out of synch with when the attack was actually taking place).

ismoketoomuch wrote...

DAO gameplay can be unresponsive in that a controlled character, especially with a 2-hander would have to set up an attack usually by distancing, after being issued a special attack command.

DA2 also did something to greatly improve responsiveness (in addition to moving the fire time to the very front, so that a button-press would always correspond to something happening immediately).

I don't think either of the above will be anything to worry about, assuming DA3 even has a rules-based combat system. I can't see them ever going back to the Origins style of having fights happen while wading through a swamp.

ismoketoomuch wrote...

I personally hope that enemies appearing out of nowhere, as in DAII, continue as a game feature, at least at the highest difficulty. Random placements would be good, and they should probably mix it up with how it was done on DAO where the really dangerous enemies, Emissaries and the like, would often be hidden in the far reaches of or beyond view in the overhead mini-map.

They've already said that any waves will only be used strategically (and far less often than in DA2).

The storms are cleared. No more raining men.

Modifié par devSin, 08 août 2013 - 06:13 .

[zMataxa]

I think people need to manage their expectations towards Bioware's DAI.
If they tried to keep everyone happy with all the options (the daily list of wishes just keeps growing and going in schizophrenic directions) - it would probably be a $200 game to pay for all the options - never mind the time.

I enjoyed both DAO and DA2.
Over the top animations in DA2?!  Not for me they weren't.
I'm playing a FANTASY game - seeing my rogue do her huge leaps was simply awesome.
In short, I'll be happy however Bioware does it - in repect to battle mechanics. 
The character interactions and story is what remains more important for me as a BIOWARE fan.

Hopefully - the half of the people who don't get THEIR preferred way in the upcoming DAI - can  manage their expectations and focus on BIOWARE's talent for story telling.
Can't wait!

Modifié par zMataxa, 08 août 2013 - 06:23 .

[Bleachrude]

Ieldra2 wrote...

uzivatel wrote...

Some of us want some depth to our combat.

Well, there sure was none in Origins.

A great deal more than in DA2. Positioning tactics, pre-combat stealth and scouting, the need to be careful with AoE - all irrelevant in DA2. DA2 was little more than "hit an applicable talent button as soon as the cooldown was done". That and the wave mechanics made DA2 combat a tedious chore.

What positioning was there in DA:O? I distinctly remember this was useless since a lot of fights, you could see the opposition but then cutscene would happen and invalidate everything about your positioning...

And DA2 most assuredly doesn't have twitch combat...it clearly is based on your stats but there is just a better feedback between what's on screen and what you press on keyboard...

[snackrat]

I always used the primeval lyrium rune - in fact, in subsequent playthroughs I would often script myself a bunch more so everyone could have them.

Not, however, because the blows were too slow, but because the COMBAT was too slow. Wave after wave of just chipping down health bars. Eventually I abandoned runes and just "killallhostiles". DAE's combat was... not great.

That said, going back to DAO showed the combat felt very slow there also. I don't mind if a game doesn't have that many 'hours', since that is an arbitrary way to rate a game anyway (it encourages padding over content). I just want the hours it provides to MATTER. I don't want to be sitting there, watching people slo.w..l...y swing their weapons and then take off a sliver of health.

Slower combat with more tactical focus - fine, great - but make the attacks more powerful to compensate. Make battles harder by requiring tactics or having the enemies smarter, not just taking longer.