482 réponses à ce sujet

[DeathFX]

[Inappropriate post removed.]

Modifié par Ninja Stan, 12 août 2013 - 06:44 .

[shingara]

Mcfly616 wrote...

there is nothing but examples of it. The Leviathans told you. The Catalyst told you. Javik told you. And you saw it with your own eyes with the Geth. You have to accept that on some level as well.

   Unless they write books or create a game on it there will never be a true example of it. We get second hand information of what they want to tell you and what they want you to see. Its a one sided argument being given to you.

 The leviathons dont have first hand experience of what started it, they only have what they were told by there parents, many of which may be like javik who were born many many years after the war actualy started. All im saying is that what we see and hear are the results of what came to pass. We do not know what happened before this came to pass.

[Mcfly616]

shingara wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

there is nothing but examples of it. The Leviathans told you. The Catalyst told you. Javik told you. And you saw it with your own eyes with the Geth. You have to accept that on some level as well.

   Unless they write books or create a game on it there will never be a true example of it. We get second hand information of what they want to tell you and what they want you to see. Its a one sided argument being given to you.

 The leviathons dont have first hand experience of what started it, they only have what they were told by there parents, many of which may be like javik who were born many many years after the war actualy started. All im saying is that what we see and hear are the results of what came to pass. We do not know what happened before this came to pass.

hey, if you don't want to believe any of them that's your prerogative. Question them? Sure. But to say they wrong? Nope. You have no proof. To say they're lying? That's also your prerogative.

Leviathans were "told by their parents"? Riiight. Tell me, how long is a Leviathans lifespan? You have no proof that they're not from the time of the first harvest

[KaiserShep]

The Leviathan Shepard speaks to says that it's their progeny. It could be lying, those damn vain cuttlefish lying about their age.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 12 août 2013 - 05:59 .

[KaiserShep]

chemiclord wrote...

Well, let's be perfectly blunt here:

ME3's vanilla ending featured Shepard struggling to get to his feet after somehow (???) taking a reaper money shot to the face... then the final cinematic is him/her taking a round through the head courtesy of a Marauder.

The Marauder shoots Shepard in the shoulder, not the head.

[shingara]

Mcfly616 wrote...

 hey, if you don't want to believe any of them that's your prerogative. Question them? Sure. But to say they wrong? Nope. You have no proof. To say they're lying? That's also your prerogative.

Leviathans were "told by their parents"? Riiight. Tell me, how long is a Leviathans lifespan? You have no proof that they're not from the time of the first harvest

In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

Modifié par shingara, 12 août 2013 - 06:10 .

[TheKingg]

Mcfly616 wrote...

shingara wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

there is nothing but examples of it. The Leviathans told you. The Catalyst told you. Javik told you. And you saw it with your own eyes with the Geth. You have to accept that on some level as well.

   Unless they write books or create a game on it there will never be a true example of it. We get second hand information of what they want to tell you and what they want you to see. Its a one sided argument being given to you.

 The leviathons dont have first hand experience of what started it, they only have what they were told by there parents, many of which may be like javik who were born many many years after the war actualy started. All im saying is that what we see and hear are the results of what came to pass. We do not know what happened before this came to pass.

hey, if you don't want to believe any of them that's your prerogative. Question them? Sure. But to say they wrong? Nope. You have no proof. To say they're lying? That's also your prerogative.

Leviathans were "told by their parents"? Riiight. Tell me, how long is a Leviathans lifespan? You have no proof that they're not from the time of the first harvest

 

Lol at you calling out other people for lack of proof when you have no proof for your own argument. At least you have finally given up the argument that cycle after cycle proved the catalyst correct because there is absolutely no evidence of that. And again you are totally incorrect about the Geth proving the catalyst right this cycle. As DS correctly pointed out, the catalyst is arguing conflict leading to total annihalition of organics. The Geth confilct in this cycle was minor and was never even close to threatening annihalition of organic life. Catalyst jumped the gun, wonder how many countless cycles he did the same thing?

Modifié par TheKingg, 12 août 2013 - 06:33 .

[KaiserShep]

It doesn't help (or maybe it does) that the reapers subjugate whatever synthetics are around at the time to attack organics, so whatever chance synthetics and organics may have to resolve their differences peacefully are reduced to zero outright. They did it with the geth, and they did it with the Zha'til.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 12 août 2013 - 07:12 .

[Astartes Marine]

KaiserShep wrote...

It doesn't help (or maybe it does) that the reapers subjugate whatever synthetics are around at the time to attack organics, so whatever chance synthetics and organics may have to resolve their differences peacefully are reduced to zero outright. They did it with the geth, and they did it with the Zha'til.

I was going to chime in with that fact but you beat me to it. 

The Reapers fulfill their own prophecy by forcing existing synthetics to go on a rampage when it doesn't look like they would on their own.  Awhile ago I said this about the whole synthetic issue in some other thread:

There is actually no real evidence to support the inevitable "synthetics will rise up to kill all organics".  The only two cases we've actually seen or heard of were the Geth Heretics and if you talk to Javik you will hear about a race called the Zha'til.  The Zha'til were a race of AIs that lived in a symbiotic relationship with their creators the Zha to survive their then inhospitable homeworld.  The Zha'til were quite content as were the Zha, it was a peaceful existence...

...until the Reapers came and corrupted the Zha'til and subjugated them just as they subjugated the Geth Heretics.
The only two instances of synthetic intelligence we really see or hear about and the Reapers were the ones to cause them to kill organics wholesale.  In these two cycles we had synthetic intelligences that were not out to murder the galaxy.  On the one hand there was a beneficial relationship in which both parties involved were content, on the other  was a party that was in a self imposed exile and wanted to be left alone and be allowed to simply exist. 
So when it looked like these synthetic intelligences were not going to cause the supposedly inevitable problem, the Reapers set in motion certain events that do make the supposedly inevitable problem happen.  Then you get Reapers  like the one on Rannoch that say "See?  It is inevitable."

They cause the very problem that they're supposed to be the solution of, just to justify their own abominable  existence.  It is made even more ironic since they are synthetic life that murders all organic life, the embodiment of the very problem that they are supposed to solve.

Modifié par Astartes Marine, 12 août 2013 - 07:50 .

[KaiserShep]

I guess I would be wrong about the chances being reduced to zero, since despite the reapers' best efforts, peace can be made regardless, using the reapers' own code against them. That doesn't stop the catalyst from sticking its fingers in its proverbial ears and saying inevitable this and that.

[Mcfly616]

TheKingg wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

shingara wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

there is nothing but examples of it. The Leviathans told you. The Catalyst told you. Javik told you. And you saw it with your own eyes with the Geth. You have to accept that on some level as well.

   Unless they write books or create a game on it there will never be a true example of it. We get second hand information of what they want to tell you and what they want you to see. Its a one sided argument being given to you.

 The leviathons dont have first hand experience of what started it, they only have what they were told by there parents, many of which may be like javik who were born many many years after the war actualy started. All im saying is that what we see and hear are the results of what came to pass. We do not know what happened before this came to pass.

hey, if you don't want to believe any of them that's your prerogative. Question them? Sure. But to say they wrong? Nope. You have no proof. To say they're lying? That's also your prerogative.

Leviathans were "told by their parents"? Riiight. Tell me, how long is a Leviathans lifespan? You have no proof that they're not from the time of the first harvest

 

Lol at you calling out other people for lack of proof when you have no proof for your own argument. At least you have finally given up the argument that cycle after cycle proved the catalyst correct because there is absolutely no evidence of that. And again you are totally incorrect about the Geth proving the catalyst right this cycle. As DS correctly pointed out, the catalyst is arguing conflict leading to total annihalition of organics. The Geth confilct in this cycle was minor and was never even close to threatening annihalition of organic life. Catalyst jumped the gun, wonder how many countless cycles he did the same thing?

so....in a nutshell, I'm going by the information given to us by multiple characters within the game. You're going on that you simply don't believe what you're told by the characters in the game....and I'm the one lacking proof? Well, where's all of your proof?

And as I correctly pointed out, Leviathan straight up tells you civilizations were being completely annihilated by their creations. You say the Catalyst "jumped the gun", when in reality its being proactive in preventing complete extinction....which it has been doing since its inception.

Modifié par Mcfly616, 12 août 2013 - 07:58 .

[Mcfly616]

KaiserShep wrote...

It doesn't help (or maybe it does) that the reapers subjugate whatever synthetics are around at the time to attack organics, so whatever chance synthetics and organics may have to resolve their differences peacefully are reduced to zero outright. They did it with the geth, and they did it with the Zha'til.

and what explaination do you have for them never resolving their differences before the Reapers ever existed?

[shingara]

And people in power always tell the truth. Is that about right mcfly ?

[KaiserShep]

Mcfly616 wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

It doesn't help (or maybe it does) that the reapers subjugate whatever synthetics are around at the time to attack organics, so whatever chance synthetics and organics may have to resolve their differences peacefully are reduced to zero outright. They did it with the geth, and they did it with the Zha'til.

and what explaination do you have for them never resolving their differences before the Reapers ever existed?

That's really the problem, right? There's no real way of knowing how everything would play out if the reaper presence was subtracted from the equation, because there's likely many factors that would be different. Would there still be heretics? Would Legion still exist? We know from Mass Effect 2 that the geth occasionally leaked false information to study organics' responses, so they were at least reaching out in a manner that wasn't hostile. We also know that the geth could have annihilated the Quarians outright, but they didn't. They certainly culled their numbers significantly, but that's not what the reapers were trying to prevent. They were trying to prevent outright extinction of everything. Now tell me, if the reapers never returned, and Sovereign was not traversing the galaxy on its own, would you consider the geth a real threat to the rest of the galaxy? Would you think it likely that one day they just flood out of the Veil hellbent on everyone's demise? Should I project their path of development hundreds if not thousands of years from that point? 

The problem I see with this hypothetical no reaper universe is that there's not a whole lot of information except a very general idea of the synthetic uprising and assumed extinction of whatever thralls the Leviathan had. If the reapers never existed, would the galaxy simply be devoid of advanced life forever? The game is not really clear on this, though life must've carried on somehow before the Catalyst made the reapers, since the Leviathan had issues with thrall populations before the cycle was established. In the end, it's kind of irrelevant, because for all the times we are to simply accept that peace couldn't be made, we also have evidence that the reapers actively work against the possibility, like they did with the geth, the Zha'til, and who knows how many others in the past. Press the reset button on a chaotic system enough times and even your best efforts to control its path of development will yield results that deviate from your predictions. Yes, I know, I'm supposed to buy this because it's one of the "rules" of this universe. But it's kind of troublesome to accept it when the story kind of works against it.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 12 août 2013 - 08:27 .

[Mcfly616]

shingara wrote...

And people in power always tell the truth. Is that about right mcfly ?

making baseless assumptions about my views again, I see. What else is new. I never said anything about ones power. Period.


I'm just weighing the odds of the likelihood, that 3 separate characters with no allegiance to one another (as well as our own experience within the MEU) are I'm fact completely incorrect and/or lying. 3 characters from 3 separate eras corroborating the evidence of conflict.

You see, all I've been doing is referencing information from the game. All you've been doing is saying "its wrong" and not providing any proof to back up your stance on the matter.

Basically your whole argument boils down to the fact that you dont believe a lick of what your told within the game. So, instead of making more assumptions about the basis of my stance, why don't you provide your own in-game information that proves these characters wrong.....as well as the conflict.

[shingara]

Mcfly616 wrote...

making baseless assumptions about my views again, I see. What else is new. I never said anything about ones power. Period.


I'm just weighing the odds of the likelihood, that 3 separate characters with no allegiance to one another (as well as our own experience within the MEU) are I'm fact completely incorrect and/or lying. 3 characters from 3 separate eras corroborating the evidence of conflict.

You see, all I've been doing is referencing information from the game. All you've been doing is saying "its wrong" and not providing any proof to back up your stance on the matter.

Basically your whole argument boils down to the fact that you dont believe a lick of what your told within the game. So, instead of making more assumptions about the basis of my stance, why don't you provide your own in-game information that proves these characters wrong.....as well as the conflict.

 I notice you are really touchy when anyone even mentions something that isnt your view so i shall say this as gently as possible. History has proven that what we are told is not always the case. people in power will tell you what you need to hear to sleep at night, and the doo doo rolls down hill.

 Argue all you wish that everything told to us by characters within the game tell us the truth 100% of the time, that they tell each other the truth 100% of the time and that there is no such thing as a lie within the mass effect universe, that nay to tell a lie within the MEU would cause you to drop down dead.

[Mcfly616]

KaiserShep wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

It doesn't help (or maybe it does) that the reapers subjugate whatever synthetics are around at the time to attack organics, so whatever chance synthetics and organics may have to resolve their differences peacefully are reduced to zero outright. They did it with the geth, and they did it with the Zha'til.

and what explaination do you have for them never resolving their differences before the Reapers ever existed?

That's really the problem, right? There's no real way of knowing how everything would play out if the reaper presence was subtracted from the equation

the creators would come into conflict with their creations and be wiped out. This is what happened before the Reapers were present.

Would you think it likely that one day they just flood out of the Veil hellbent on everyone's demise?

Hellbent on everyone's demise....no. But I do believe they'd eventually expand out of the Veil and conflict would ensue due to our inherent differences. The Geth are young on the galactic time scale. Only 300 yrs old.


I'm not saying not to question things. I think questioning the details is healthy and natural. But to say the information you receive within the game is outright wrong....that's actually false, and not able to be proven within the information provided within the game.

[Mcfly616]

shingara wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

making baseless assumptions about my views again, I see. What else is new. I never said anything about ones power. Period.


I'm just weighing the odds of the likelihood, that 3 separate characters with no allegiance to one another (as well as our own experience within the MEU) are I'm fact completely incorrect and/or lying. 3 characters from 3 separate eras corroborating the evidence of conflict.

You see, all I've been doing is referencing information from the game. All you've been doing is saying "its wrong" and not providing any proof to back up your stance on the matter.

Basically your whole argument boils down to the fact that you dont believe a lick of what your told within the game. So, instead of making more assumptions about the basis of my stance, why don't you provide your own in-game information that proves these characters wrong.....as well as the conflict.

 I notice you are really touchy when anyone even mentions something that isnt your view so i shall say this as gently as possible. History has proven that what we are told is not always the case. people in power will tell you what you need to hear to sleep at night, and the doo doo rolls down hill.

 Argue all you wish that everything told to us by characters within the game tell us the truth 100% of the time, that they tell each other the truth 100% of the time and that there is no such thing as a lie within the mass effect universe, that nay to tell a lie within the MEU would cause you to drop down dead.

touchy? No. It's just annoying when you do the same thing on a daily basis. For instance, you just implied that I was saying "people in power always tell the truth". So yeah, when you come out of left field with such a random remark that halts the actual discussion at hand....I like to make it a point to tell you that youre simply incorrect with such assumptions and implications.

Now thats cleared up for you (hopefully), let's get back to the topic.... I never said a character couldn't lie within the MEU. Plenty of characters have. But you're saying Leviathan, Catalyst, and Javik were all lying due to their power? Hmm yeah....that seems......likely

[NeonFlux117]

The ending was poorly written and lacked narrative cohesion and peer review. Not really anything mind blowing. Poorly written and weakly executed.

[shingara]

Mcfly616 wrote...

touchy? No. It's just annoying when you do the same thing on a daily basis. For instance, you just implied that I was saying "people in power always tell the truth". So yeah, when you come out of left field with such a random remark that halts the actual discussion at hand....I like to make it a point to tell you that youre simply incorrect with such assumptions and implications.

Now thats cleared up for you (hopefully), let's get back to the topic.... I never said a character couldn't lie within the MEU. Plenty of characters have. But you're saying Leviathan, Catalyst, and Javik were all lying due to their power? Hmm yeah....that seems......likely

 Cleared up is it ? touchy i think it is. Could the leviathons be lying hmm. They state they are powerless to stop the reapers, that the reapers managed to just take over there race, the apex race, and then flip and say ow ok we might be able to help.

   What happens next, 3 lowly leviathans not just take over reaper forces but knock out and control a reaper capital ship. Lets count that shall we, 3 leviathons. And lets think of something else shall we, if they wanted to stop the reapers and have artifacts amongst races then why not make those races prepare for the reapers, but ow no. For milenia they have done nothing. They state that dead races do not provide for them. Yet they care nothing for the races being obliterated.

  Not to mention at one point in time there was only 1 soverign class reaper within the galaxy whilst the rest were trapped in dark space, and yet the leviathons do what exactly ?

 So in that we have that the leviathons whom  if they wished could stop the reapers but chose not to. Races they control not attempting to stop the reapers, infact they activly help them.  We have the catalyst stating the synthetics will always attack there creators, but every case we have is organics destroying what they create.

 And javik isnt lying, he was in a cycle, not controlling them or set them off. Javik is simply telling you what he himself has been told, thus doo doo rolls down hill.


 Also on what you said to kaiser, the thing with synthetics before the reapers, leviathan is only able to control organic minds and we must say, not very well BTW as they kept doing what they were told not to, if the organics did create synthetics, the synthetics could and probably would defend there organics to fight against the leviathans.

Modifié par shingara, 12 août 2013 - 01:29 .

[KaiserShep]

Mcfly616 wrote...
I'm not saying not to question things. I think questioning the details is healthy and natural. But to say the information you receive within the game is outright wrong....that's actually false, and not able to be proven within the information provided within the game.

The problem is that the narrative is kind of a confused mess. Establishing a rule and permitting us to observe a clear exception creates a disconnect, especially when that exception is a major turn in the story's plot. If I was really supposed to accept this rule, peace should not have been possible. It should have been strictly picking the Quarians or the geth, since picking the Quarians would mean the geth are wiped out, and picking the geth means that their creators are finally annihilated. Seems senseless that 3 very distinct outcomes all share the same exact dialogue in the end.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 12 août 2013 - 10:02 .

[AlanC9]

KaiserShep wrote...
 Establishing a rule and permitting us to observe a clear exception creates a disconnect, especially when that exception is a major turn in the story's plot. If I was really supposed to accept this rule, peace should not have been possible. It should have been strictly picking the Quarians or the geth, since picking the Quarians would mean the geth are wiped out, and picking the geth means that their creators are finally annihilated. 

IIRC David Gaider made an argument pretty close to this on the DA boards

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...
 Establishing a rule and permitting us to observe a clear exception creates a disconnect, especially when that exception is a major turn in the story's plot. If I was really supposed to accept this rule, peace should not have been possible. It should have been strictly picking the Quarians or the geth, since picking the Quarians would mean the geth are wiped out, and picking the geth means that their creators are finally annihilated. 

IIRC David Gaider made an argument pretty close to this on the DA boards

And by that logic, we should be forced to either annihilate the krogan or the salarians, as the Krogan Rebellions were a far greter threat to organic life than the geth ever were (the krogan were dropping asteroids on garden worlds by the end)

[shingara]

iakus wrote...

And by that logic, we should be forced to either annihilate the krogan or the salarians, as the Krogan Rebellions were a far greter threat to organic life than the geth ever were (the krogan were dropping asteroids on garden worlds by the end)

 They are discussing the baseless lie told by the catalyst that synthetics will always destroy organics eg created killing there creator. Not organic vs organic.

Modifié par shingara, 12 août 2013 - 04:21 .

[Iakus]

shingara wrote...

iakus wrote...

And by that logic, we should be forced to either annihilate the krogan or the salarians, as the Krogan Rebellions were a far greter threat to organic life than the geth ever were (the krogan were dropping asteroids on garden worlds by the end)

 They are discussing the baseless lie told by the catalyst that synthetics will always destroy organics eg created killing there creator. Not organic vs organic.

Indeed.  And I'm just pointing that that organics have proven to be far greater threats to organic life than synthetics.

The Catalyst indeed has no idea what he's talking about.