482 réponses à ce sujet

[shingara]

iakus wrote...

Indeed.  And I'm just pointing that that organics have proven to be far greater threats to organic life than synthetics.

The Catalyst indeed has no idea what he's talking about.

 In that sense all humans should be wiped out because they are the ultimate self destructive species in the galaxie and im not even sure if the kid is a catalyst or harby.

Modifié par shingara, 12 août 2013 - 04:31 .

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...

Indeed.  And I'm just pointing that that organics have proven to be far greater threats to organic life than synthetics.

The Catalyst indeed has no idea what he's talking about.

No, they haven't. The Catalyst is a far greater threat to organic life than the krogan, and he's synthetic. That he's fulfilling his own prophecy doesn't mean he's wrong about the threat of synthetics wiping out organics.

[shingara]

CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...

Indeed.  And I'm just pointing that that organics have proven to be far greater threats to organic life than synthetics.

The Catalyst indeed has no idea what he's talking about.

No, they haven't. The Catalyst is a far greater threat to organic life than the krogan, and he's synthetic. That he's fulfilling his own prophecy doesn't mean he's wrong about the threat of synthetics wiping out organics.

 Apart from the odd thing that its organics who always pose the threat to synthetics and the grand scheme is to use synthetics to kill organics to stop them creating synthetics that will kill them. Anyone else see somethin odd in that.

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...

Indeed.  And I'm just pointing that that organics have proven to be far greater threats to organic life than synthetics.

The Catalyst indeed has no idea what he's talking about.

No, they haven't. The Catalyst is a far greater threat to organic life than the krogan, and he's synthetic. That he's fulfilling his own prophecy doesn't mean he's wrong about the threat of synthetics wiping out organics.

Organic vs organic wars have risked entire worlds, driven species like the rachni into extinction.

As it is, the only example we have that's anywhere near that kind of destruction is the Morning War, where it's a matter of historical record that

1) the geth allowed the quarian remnant population to escape and
2) they actually cleaned up the destruction on Rannoch, making sure it continued to sustain life.

There is no compelling evidence that synthetic life is more or less a threat to organic life than other organic life.

[Wayning_Star]

iakus wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...

Indeed.  And I'm just pointing that that organics have proven to be far greater threats to organic life than synthetics.

The Catalyst indeed has no idea what he's talking about.

No, they haven't. The Catalyst is a far greater threat to organic life than the krogan, and he's synthetic. That he's fulfilling his own prophecy doesn't mean he's wrong about the threat of synthetics wiping out organics.

Organic vs organic wars have risked entire worlds, driven species like the rachni into extinction.

As it is, the only example we have that's anywhere near that kind of destruction is the Morning War, where it's a matter of historical record that

1) the geth allowed the quarian remnant population to escape and
2) they actually cleaned up the destruction on Rannoch, making sure it continued to sustain life.

There is no compelling evidence that synthetic life is more or less a threat to organic life than other organic life.

technically, the catalyst, formerly the intelligence also, in it's own mechanical/logical way, provides a form of 'continuation' for life in the weird form of reaperships. Apparently those creatures are solely constructed of harvested organics and their respective created synthetic life forms. Synthetic life forms in the MEU seem to be a bit magnanimous in that regard?

who knew?!?

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...

Organic vs organic wars have risked entire worlds, driven species like the rachni into extinction.

Which is nothing compared to what the Catalyst has done over the course of millions of years. No organic race ever had the capability to wipe out all advanced organic life like the Catalyst has. If you'd like to say that besides the Catalyst and the Reapers, we know of no cases where synthetics have demonstrated more destructive power than organics, then that is a reasonable assertion. It's also true that thanks to the Catalyst no synthetic race was ever given the chance to accumulate that sort of destructive power once the cycle started (the Leviathans seemed capable of wiping out the synthetics that destroyed their thrall races before the cycle started).

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 12 août 2013 - 05:05 .

[dreamgazer]

iakus wrote...

There is no compelling evidence that synthetic life is more or less a threat to organic life than other organic life.

Unless you consider the notion of "total war", the complete devotion of one's resources and energy into a conflict.

Organic life is not capable of literally doing so (sleep, nourishment, etc.), but synthetic life is.

[Wayning_Star]

CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...

Organic vs organic wars have risked entire worlds, driven species like the rachni into extinction.

Which is nothing compared to what the Catalyst has done over the course of millions of years. No organic race ever had the capability to wipe out all advanced organic life like the Catalyst has. If you'd like to say that besides the Catalyst and the Reapers, we know of no cases where synthetics have demonstrated more destructive power than organics, then that is a reasonable assertion. It's also true that thanks to the Catalyst no synthetic race as ever given the chance to accumulate that sort of destructive power.

but that's the point, organics made up the 'intelligence' because they needed it to do their thinking for them. So actually the catalyst was indeed and function a form of organic intelligence doing what it was told to do "by" organics... Tough call but the organics have to stand up and take that bit of medicine.

[CronoDragoon]

Wayning_Star wrote...

but that's the point, organics made up the 'intelligence' because they needed it to do their thinking for them. So actually the catalyst was indeed and function a form of organic intelligence doing what it was told to do "by" organics... Tough call but the organics have to stand up and take that bit of medicine.

Yes, organics made up the Intelligence. That does not mean that what the Catalyst does falls under "the power of organics." It's still synthetic, and anything it does is classified as a synthetic threat.

[Wayning_Star]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

but that's the point, organics made up the 'intelligence' because they needed it to do their thinking for them. So actually the catalyst was indeed and function a form of organic intelligence doing what it was told to do "by" organics... Tough call but the organics have to stand up and take that bit of medicine.

Yes, organics made up the Intelligence. That does not mean that what the Catalyst does falls under "the power of organics." It's still synthetic, and anything it does is classified as a synthetic threat.

that is saying that the catalyst is an independent life form, just like, say, humans?

[shingara]

Have a question, serious sciency stuff here. All a human brain consists of are nerve endings and cells that pulse electrical waves in intermitent waves that give us thoughts, memorys, impulses and feelings. So if an ai is a set of circuits and bla (insert what you think an Ai would require) that pulse electrical waves in intermitent waves that give us thoughts, memorys, impulses and feelings.

In the event it actualy happened which would be the most sentient. Makes you wonder doesnt it.

[Wayning_Star]

shingara wrote...

Have a question, serious sciency stuff here. All a human brain consists of are nerve endings and cells that pulse electrical waves in intermitent waves that give us thoughts, memorys, impulses and feelings. So if an ai is a set of circuits and bla (insert what you think an Ai would require) that pulse electrical waves in intermitent waves that give us thoughts, memorys, impulses and feelings.

In the event it actualy happened which would be the most sentient. Makes you wonder doesnt it.

doesn't the organic brain have circuits, or should say cells that pulse electrical current/bio mechanical. The catalyst is most likely an organic computer in any event, so it's an interesting question, even here on old earth.. more so probably than in the future with the MEU and such/so forth.

[shingara]

Wayning_Star wrote...

doesn't the organic brain have circuits, or should say cells that pulse electrical current/bio mechanical. The catalyst is most likely an organic computer in any event, so it's an interesting question, even here on old earth.. more so probably than in the future with the MEU and such/so forth.

 Well technically they are messing with wetware which is organic computers, its miles away from being anything like an Ai but they did make an organic computer that can do basic arithmatic.  And your right the organic brain IE ours does do that, its even able to rewrite itself and store more then we currently understand.

 Mostly seen by a condition called alters. The reason i ask this is because the higher the brain power the higher the sentiency seen within species. so if an AI is able to become sentient do they have a higher level of sentince then we organics do.

 As it is we have evolved to this level of sentiency, it took us thousands of years, a true AI could possibly reach our lvl in weeks or months.

[KaiserShep]

CronoDragoon wrote...
That he's fulfilling his own prophecy doesn't mean he's wrong about the threat of synthetics wiping out organics.

Well being synthetic, I guess he counts, but on the bright side, deleting both it and its reapers at least leaves only the phantom threat of future synthetics, rather than the real one it represents.

[Iakus]

dreamgazer wrote...

iakus wrote...

There is no compelling evidence that synthetic life is more or less a threat to organic life than other organic life.

Unless you consider the notion of "total war", the complete devotion of one's resources and energy into a conflict.

Organic life is not capable of literally doing so (sleep, nourishment, etc.), but synthetic life is.

So are all synthetic life to be judged on the capabilities of the Reapers?

SHould all organic life be judged based on what the Leviathans did?  Or on the krogan?  The batarians?  Or even humanity?

No two species are identical.  All must be judged on their own merits. 

[dreamgazer]

iakus wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

iakus wrote...

There is no compelling evidence that synthetic life is more or less a threat to organic life than other organic life.

Unless you consider the notion of "total war", the complete devotion of one's resources and energy into a conflict.

Organic life is not capable of literally doing so (sleep, nourishment, etc.), but synthetic life is.

So are all synthetic life to be judged on the capabilities of the Reapers?

SHould all organic life be judged based on what the Leviathans did?  Or on the krogan?  The batarians?  Or even humanity?

No two species are identical.  All must be judged on their own merits. 

The difference between synthetics and organics in terms of their abilities in a "total war" situation doesn't solely apply to the Reapers, iakus, nor did I suggest that all synthetic life should be judged based on the Reapers' capabilities.  It is, however, an example of how synthetic forces pose "more" of a threat to organics than organics do. 

[Eterna]

Jadebaby wrote...


I don't contribute much around this place anymore but one thing I did want to share was this; Anyone still talking about the endings, for good or for bad, right or wrong. BioWare thanks you.

You see, one thing I discovered at PAX Australia was that it's not about whether you like it or not to them. It's about whether you will remember it. Whether you'll keep talking about it. They don't even care how many people you tell it was crap. So long as your telling people about it, that's good enough for them.

The ending didn't get the reaction it did from people because it was good (or bad) in itself. It got the reaction it did because of the hundred of hours that preceded it. They used all that emotion you put into the game and turned it all around on you. Then they hit people with a logic bomb or two just in case some fans didn't get emotionally attached.

The sick thing about this is that they KNEW how much people cared about this universe, it's lore and it's characters well before ME3 was even in production. You don't get crazy cosplay and die-hard fanboy/girlism from people not caring. So it's not like they were testing the water with the endings, they already knew how warm it was. They just decided to ****** in it anyway because they couldn't create anything better. So instead they created an ending that betrayed all sense of logic and reason to get a response from you. Be it good or bad.

I'm not one to tell people what to do, but the best advice I can give to those who still can't get over the endings, is to just move on. Seriously, just never speak of it again. You'll be freeing your own mind from the torment of trying to make sense of it all and you'll be hurting BioWare more in doing so by not publicising it anymore.
I understand if you cannot leave Mass Effect as a series behind, so for those of you who feel this way, maybe do something constructive to help you. Help with MEHEM, create your own YouTube ending or even just write/type one.

When all else fails, ignorance is truly bliss.

And then Jade went off the deep end. 

But seriously, I have to luagh. The longer I'm away from these forums the more ridiculous the comments seem when I return. 

Modifié par Eterna5, 12 août 2013 - 08:54 .

[KaiserShep]

dreamgazer wrote...

The difference between synthetics and organics in terms of their abilities in a "total war" situation doesn't solely apply to the Reapers, iakus, nor did I suggest that all synthetic life should be judged based on the Reapers' capabilities.  It is, however, an example of how synthetic forces pose "more" of a threat to organics than organics do. 

The Rachni do come pretty close. They are pretty much the equivalent of ferocious colony insects on earth with the capacity to wage an interstellar war. If not for the Krogan, they could wipe out entire species without missing a beat. 

[TheKingg]

Great points made about organic vs. organic conflict being a bigger threat to organic life in this cycle. And you know what? Organics found a way to solve the problem. I think organics are being vastly underrated by the catalyst in regards to their ingenuity. I find the catalyst to be the definition of unreliable.

[Display Name Owner]

Haven't read the whole thread, but just weighing on on this Organic vs. Synthetics as a threat to Organics thing...

Synthetics have been a threat, the most obvious example being the Reapers. We can spin their reasoning however we want, but the fact remains they are the single most prolific destructive force in the history of the galaxy.

But even ignoring the Reapers, The Geth massacred the Quarians. We can go on about whose fault the Morning War was, but the nature of the Geth at the time, when they were less evolved, made them capable of reducing the Quarian population to the extent they did. Since then, they have been either isolationist or outright Hostile. Not counting the Heretics as Geth because they aren't the mainstream doesn't work either. It's like saying Cerberus don't count as Organics. So all in all, the Geth have focused on their own interests or been hostile to those they deem enemies, only cooperating with Organics when they deemed it necessary (in the light of the Reaper threat). Which sounds exactly like the relationship between Organic groups does it not? Cooperate, attack, or ignore as is most beneficial to themselves.

Also, the Geth don't necessarily exemplify Synthetics as a whole. We have very limited examples, because the Council doesn't allow Synthetic creation for this very reason, but for all we know Synthetic ideals and reasoning can be as varied as that of Organics, and whether they seek peace or hostilities is as uncertain as between Organics. Some Organic groups are socially incompatible with others, there's no reason to assume the same doesn't go for Synthetic groups.

[3DandBeyond]

CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...

Indeed.  And I'm just pointing that that organics have proven to be far greater threats to organic life than synthetics.

The Catalyst indeed has no idea what he's talking about.

No, they haven't. The Catalyst is a far greater threat to organic life than the krogan, and he's synthetic. That he's fulfilling his own prophecy doesn't mean he's wrong about the threat of synthetics wiping out organics.

He's one synthetic that has posed a threat and yes a repeated one, but he doesn't see himself as the threat.  He sees a specific version of synthetics as THE threat.  You and I would agree that he's really created a huge threat, but for that to be valid as proof that what he says is true and that's why he believes it, he'd have to recognize it too.  He doesn't.  He sees himself as a kind of saviour who is stopping the threat.  It's kind of like me never having tasted chocolate ice cream, insisting that it's the best tasting.  I can't say it if I don't know it to be true from my perspective.  Neither the kid nor his creators have any basis upon which to say synthetics will destroy all organic life inevitably.  Nor can they emphatically even state that it's far more likely for synthetics to do that than for organics to do it themselves.  The basis is that if one type of person kills people so it's inevitable would set both up as inevitabilities and so it would invalidate both.  They both cannot be inevitable.

So it does come down to recognizable and real threats, and organics have always posed far more obvious ones.  Even as the kid posits the problem, he's placing the real blame on organics.  They advance too far and create synthetics, so the problem lies with organics.  And yet, he makes way for their advancement so that they're able to have the smarts to create synthetics, yet he does not "see" this.  So again he's not seeing himself, a synthetic, as a problem.  It's this constant mirror within a mirror stuff that makes my head ache.

So from the kid's perspective the only killer synthetics are those that have never posed the same sort of threat (or perhaps have posed an equal one) that organics have also posed.  The Rachni, the Krogan, the Protheans, all actually were far more destructive and potential threats to ALL organic life than those creations of the enthralled races.  Leviathan never said those synthetics wanted to kill them-they were killing those that were to pay them tribute.  So, even those synthetics were not good examples of synthetics that threaten all organic life, but organics are good examples of beings that could kill themselves and all life. 

And then in ME, we see so many examples of beings that decided NOT to do the worst things possible.  The Rachni never wanted any of this, wanted to be left alone, defended themselves and went too far, but determined later on to NOT keep doing this.  Then the reapers came and were using them.  And they again decided not to keep killing, promised Shepard again.  And again the reapers came and were using them.  The Krogan were used to stop the Rachni and then were infused with the genophage, which if cured set up a situation that could lead to the annihilation of all organics.  But the Krogan could decide NOT to kill those who had wronged them.  And we know about the geth, the most important synthetic threat lesson as far as Shepard and the galaxy this time has.

The thing is neither organics nor synthetics have ever fully wanted to destroy everyone, nor have they unintentionally even come close, no matter how rat nasty they are or how abused.  We see example after example of people deciding or having the ability to decide to NOT kill.  But in the end we're meant to think some computer with an innocent face and a stupid computer at that is somehow not winning by getting Shepard to do one of 3 things that solve a problem that we've seen solved by better methods.  Banana is apple.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 13 août 2013 - 03:09 .

[Nashtalia]

Jadebaby wrote...


I don't contribute much around this place anymore but one thing I did want to share was this; Anyone still talking about the endings, for good or for bad, right or wrong. BioWare thanks you.

You see, one thing I discovered at PAX Australia was that it's not about whether you like it or not to them. It's about whether you will remember it. Whether you'll keep talking about it. They don't even care how many people you tell it was crap. So long as your telling people about it, that's good enough for them.

The ending didn't get the reaction it did from people because it was good (or bad) in itself. It got the reaction it did because of the hundred of hours that preceded it. They used all that emotion you put into the game and turned it all around on you. Then they hit people with a logic bomb or two just in case some fans didn't get emotionally attached.

The sick thing about this is that they KNEW how much people cared about this universe, it's lore and it's characters well before ME3 was even in production. You don't get crazy cosplay and die-hard fanboy/girlism from people not caring. So it's not like they were testing the water with the endings, they already knew how warm it was. They just decided to ****** in it anyway because they couldn't create anything better. So instead they created an ending that betrayed all sense of logic and reason to get a response from you. Be it good or bad.

I'm not one to tell people what to do, but the best advice I can give to those who still can't get over the endings, is to just move on. Seriously, just never speak of it again. You'll be freeing your own mind from the torment of trying to make sense of it all and you'll be hurting BioWare more in doing so by not publicising it anymore.
I understand if you cannot leave Mass Effect as a series behind, so for those of you who feel this way, maybe do something constructive to help you. Help with MEHEM, create your own YouTube ending or even just write/type one.

When all else fails, ignorance is truly bliss.

despite my tragic ending...what i can say and respond to the quote above that i bolded and underlined, in which responding to that [the bolded and underlined from your quote]. is that, so....in a way they Harvested from you via the time that took from the one during the journey and one's emotion...that is if one took the time and emotion to their journey....

but alas, despite what "has" been of my ending i cannot just simply move on, i am still Emotionally Tramatized of my ending.

[Iakus]

Indeed. The Catalyst being synthetic is all but irrelevant to the issue.

I mean, imagine if there was no Ai guiding the Reapers, but it was Urdnot Wreav pulling the strings

Or Balak

Or Daro'Xen

Or even David Archer.

The Reapers would be just as great a threat to organic life. More, perhaps, since these are all organics we are not likely to trust with that kind of power.

THAT is the greatest threat to life: irresponsible use of power. That's a failing we have seen in organics and synthetics both. And no, I don't think turning everyone into green-eyed hybrids would help with that either.

[3DandBeyond]

isnudo wrote...

Haven't read the whole thread, but just weighing on on this Organic vs. Synthetics as a threat to Organics thing...

Synthetics have been a threat, the most obvious example being the Reapers. We can spin their reasoning however we want, but the fact remains they are the single most prolific destructive force in the history of the galaxy.

But even ignoring the Reapers, The Geth massacred the Quarians. We can go on about whose fault the Morning War was, but the nature of the Geth at the time, when they were less evolved, made them capable of reducing the Quarian population to the extent they did. Since then, they have been either isolationist or outright Hostile. Not counting the Heretics as Geth because they aren't the mainstream doesn't work either. It's like saying Cerberus don't count as Organics. So all in all, the Geth have focused on their own interests or been hostile to those they deem enemies, only cooperating with Organics when they deemed it necessary (in the light of the Reaper threat). Which sounds exactly like the relationship between Organic groups does it not? Cooperate, attack, or ignore as is most beneficial to themselves.

Also, the Geth don't necessarily exemplify Synthetics as a whole. We have very limited examples, because the Council doesn't allow Synthetic creation for this very reason, but for all we know Synthetic ideals and reasoning can be as varied as that of Organics, and whether they seek peace or hostilities is as uncertain as between Organics. Some Organic groups are socially incompatible with others, there's no reason to assume the same doesn't go for Synthetic groups.

The reapers are organic and synthetic so they do not apply and the kid specifically does not see them as being in conflict so they are ruled out-this is how he views things.

The geth had the potential to kill all quarians and it's not even necessary to debate who rebelled against who.  The true point of it is that the geth decided not to-this alone abolishes the assertion of any sort of inevitable synthetics will kill all organics construct.  The geth disprove the kid's assertion.  They were completely capable of destroying the quarians and relented and had remorse. 

That means that with their sentience and autonomy came understanding and emotion.  The geth also set up the planet as a memorial to the quarians and acted as caretakers awaiting their return.  Beyond that we have no foundation upon which to assert that the geth would have been both capable of and would have ever desired to kill all other organic life as well.  All of this means that the most obvious synthetic vs organic conflict had ended when sytnthetics decided to no longer kill even those who wanted them dead.

From Shepard's viewpoint, the reapers do pose the biggest threat.  From the kid's, they do not.  In order to make some choice over the best way to handle the synthetic vs organic conflict, you have to be really sure that the right conflict is being overcome.  You also have to in some way agree with the kid in what the conflict is all about.

For us the main goal of this story has been the removal of certain foes-and they are not clearly synthetic robots but are more living beings with arrogance, feelings (of hatred), and with thought, independent thought.  In the end, the story is that organics just can't stop making robots that will kill them and all their little organic companions and food sources.  And yet, the very being that wants them to stop doing that encourages them to keep doing it.

This original sin, er conflict begins with Leviathan and the enthralled.  Clearly the problem was always organics.  Leviathans were bad at enthralling races (and arrogant, obnoxious, controlling, demanding, despotic), so their enthralled kept making bad robots that killed them (the enthralled).  Leviathan should have seen the problem as existing with idiots that couldn't stop making robots that killed them, but they put the blame on the robots.  So they wanted to provide balance and peace between robot and organic.  They created a moron AI that wanted to blend the two and made monsters.  This says that peace can't be achieved and diversity must be disbanded.  In order for organics and synthetics to stop fighting they must have babies and become one.  This is idiotic. 

The real choice that can permanently solve conflicts is to wipe away all our differences and meld together?  I think something more mature could be worked out.  I don't think that in order to beat your enemy, you must become your enemy.  I think that synthetics should have their diversity and be respected for that and the same for organics.