482 réponses à ce sujet

[shingara]

Wayning_Star wrote...

shingara wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

dead horse reinvention aside, OP, it would seem that having all players win their own way via their choice wasn't the "boss fight" everyone likes. Really, they (evile devs) expected a win win win win situation with the three, NO four choices menu. But, now each player proclaims the "official" version of a "win" relies on, well... their version of win. That new gray mare just ain't what she was expected to be, eh?

 Exactly, well put. And there are larger ramifications to this. To create a sequel of any substance they are going to have to choose one specific ending as canon that is gonna peev of the other 2 camps.

actually, the star gazer scene depicts the ending that is official, and the next series of ME will be long removed from current events. Time. I'm thinking there'll be some 'reflection' on that past, but only remotely. The issue will be more about what to do and how to do it than being about 'who' we're to do this and that with.  The dreaded enemy to vanquish is another question to be answered. It won't be anyone we know now tho, I'd guess.

 Not really, with control the reapers will still be knocking about, a main part of the galaxy, the new caretakers of the mass relays etc, with synthesis there will be no organics or synthetics. They will be a melded on a dna lvl and able to share knowledge instantly to everyone. With destroy there are no reapers at all, the geth are gone etc.

 And with refuse all the races will be gone bar the Yahg and a few of the other none known races, it would require the sequel to be pushed far far far into the future so it would no longer be the mass effect universe.


 Obviously this is assuming that control and synthesis actualy work as even though it was tried in previous cycles, it has never actualy worked.

Modifié par shingara, 08 août 2013 - 02:39 .

[chemiclord]

shingara wrote...

 If they introduce a new ending, remove the old endings and choices and make it so it continues the actual mission you have been doing from 1-3 what exactly would be the problem ?

The problem there is that I believe BOTH Sony and MS have a policy that DLC cannot be used to alter existing content.  DLC can ADD content, but cannot remove it.  Once the game went gold, those three choices and the Catalyst were there to stay.

[Iakus]

JamesFaith wrote...

iakus wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...

I don't speak about nature of change but about form of change - which is one alterned dialog.  

Rest of DLC was completely new content, so it's hardly qualify as change of ending of original Fallout.

The change leads to the content.  You are changing the outcome.

If anything, this shows that only a "minor" change in the ending could have led to something many who hated the ending could have accepted (as Broken Steel proved to be a more satisfactory ending than the original)

So which "minor" change would altered Catalyst nature? Or functions of Crucible? Or Priority: Earth?

Because changing of these things was part of demands of BSN.

Not everyone need happy-ending like you, there were whole bunch of demands.  

You forgot one other change I that I wanted besides choice and outcome:  context.

The minor detail in this particular case would have been Shepard's survival to see the new galaxy the choice created firsthand.  With a chance to reflect on whether the choice was worth it.  A chance to see Joker mourn for EDI and perhaps help him through it.  Or help Javik discover Synthesis might or might not be so bad.  Or help the galaxy adjust to the change in Reaper leadership.

[shingara]

chemiclord wrote...

shingara wrote...

 If they introduce a new ending, remove the old endings and choices and make it so it continues the actual mission you have been doing from 1-3 what exactly would be the problem ?

The problem there is that I believe BOTH Sony and MS have a policy that DLC cannot be used to alter existing content.  DLC can ADD content, but cannot remove it.  Once the game went gold, those three choices and the Catalyst were there to stay.

 Who said a dlc, it can be patched.

[AlexMBrennan]

So yeah, if ME3 had a DLC that made all three endings survivable, I think it could (potentially) have redeemed the ending by giving Shepard one last adventure in the galaxy he/she helped create

Except that Broken Steel was hardly about "one last adventure" - sure, making the player sacrifice themselves when a perfectly good immune-to-radiation robot buddy was at hand was stupid, but a much bigger deal was that you can beat Fallout 3 without seeming more than 10% of the game, and the game is very episodic in nature (lots of mostly unrelated things to do). Me is a very different beast.

[Wayning_Star]

shingara wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

shingara wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

dead horse reinvention aside, OP, it would seem that having all players win their own way via their choice wasn't the "boss fight" everyone likes. Really, they (evile devs) expected a win win win win situation with the three, NO four choices menu. But, now each player proclaims the "official" version of a "win" relies on, well... their version of win. That new gray mare just ain't what she was expected to be, eh?

 Exactly, well put. And there are larger ramifications to this. To create a sequel of any substance they are going to have to choose one specific ending as canon that is gonna peev of the other 2 camps.

actually, the star gazer scene depicts the ending that is official, and the next series of ME will be long removed from current events. Time. I'm thinking there'll be some 'reflection' on that past, but only remotely. The issue will be more about what to do and how to do it than being about 'who' we're to do this and that with.  The dreaded enemy to vanquish is another question to be answered. It won't be anyone we know now tho, I'd guess.

 Not really, with control the reapers will still be knocking about, a main part of the galaxy, the new caretakers of the mass relays etc, with synthesis there will be no organics or synthetics. They will be a melded on a dna lvl. With destroy there are no reapers at all, the geth are gone etc.

 And with refuse all the races will be gone bar the Yahg and a few of the other none known races, it would require the sequel to be pushed far far far into the future so it would no longer be the mass effect universe.

Apparently, with the star gazers, the past is just that, waaaaaaaay back there. None of the efforts we've associated with the MEU and reapers is reflected there, as the "real time" in the MEU story, as that old man tells it to the kid. All choices were apparently okay. And if we realize the effort of the writers to infer strongly that time has pretty much erased all memories of Shepard, other than lore, myth and legend. This all denotes a clean slate with new but similar hardware in the next visit to the MEU.

[shingara]

Wayning_Star wrote...

shingara wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

shingara wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

dead horse reinvention aside, OP, it would seem that having all players win their own way via their choice wasn't the "boss fight" everyone likes. Really, they (evile devs) expected a win win win win situation with the three, NO four choices menu. But, now each player proclaims the "official" version of a "win" relies on, well... their version of win. That new gray mare just ain't what she was expected to be, eh?

 Exactly, well put. And there are larger ramifications to this. To create a sequel of any substance they are going to have to choose one specific ending as canon that is gonna peev of the other 2 camps.

actually, the star gazer scene depicts the ending that is official, and the next series of ME will be long removed from current events. Time. I'm thinking there'll be some 'reflection' on that past, but only remotely. The issue will be more about what to do and how to do it than being about 'who' we're to do this and that with.  The dreaded enemy to vanquish is another question to be answered. It won't be anyone we know now tho, I'd guess.

 Not really, with control the reapers will still be knocking about, a main part of the galaxy, the new caretakers of the mass relays etc, with synthesis there will be no organics or synthetics. They will be a melded on a dna lvl. With destroy there are no reapers at all, the geth are gone etc.

 And with refuse all the races will be gone bar the Yahg and a few of the other none known races, it would require the sequel to be pushed far far far into the future so it would no longer be the mass effect universe.

Apparently, with the star gazers, the past is just that, waaaaaaaay back there. None of the efforts we've associated with the MEU and reapers is reflected there, as the "real time" in the MEU story, as that old man tells it to the kid. All choices were apparently okay. And if we realize the effort of the writers to infer strongly that time has pretty much erased all memories of Shepard, other than lore, myth and legend. This all denotes a clean slate with new but similar hardware in the next visit to the MEU.

 That stargazer thing is a joke in and upon itself, the writers didnt have a scooby how to finish 3, they probably thought they wouldnt be working on a 4. All they thought was scrap shepard and legit and hope the fans argue amongst themselves about the outcome.

 Its probably why they have said they wanna do it in this timeframe which is just crazy, but they cant see a way of making a real sequel with the mess they have left themselves with. And what makes the MEU is the races etc that make up this universal timeframe.

[Wayning_Star]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

So yeah, if ME3 had a DLC that made all three endings survivable, I think it could (potentially) have redeemed the ending by giving Shepard one last adventure in the galaxy he/she helped create

Except that Broken Steel was hardly about "one last adventure" - sure, making the player sacrifice themselves when a perfectly good immune-to-radiation robot buddy was at hand was stupid, but a much bigger deal was that you can beat Fallout 3 without seeming more than 10% of the game, and the game is very episodic in nature (lots of mostly unrelated things to do). Me is a very different beast.

yeah, I really liked fallout, it was a nifty exploration/w some government chaffing about control and other "security" stuff. (satire

It would seem that ME has those too, each choice seems to reflect some political/ethical motivation or proclivity. Just say'n

I have to say, I enjoyed both, but ME had more immersion, what with the limited this and that stuff going on. It actually affected the game directly, even if small, the story was more up to the player than in fall out, or other games I've played.

[KaiserShep]

shingara wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

The problem there is that I believe BOTH Sony and MS have a policy that DLC cannot be used to alter existing content.  DLC can ADD content, but cannot remove it.  Once the game went gold, those three choices and the Catalyst were there to stay.

 Who said a dlc, it can be patched.

A fault in the writing of a story's ending is not the same as a bug that needs fixing. You won't get away with rewriting the entire ending and calling it a software fix. 

[shingara]

KaiserShep wrote...

shingara wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

The problem there is that I believe BOTH Sony and MS have a policy that DLC cannot be used to alter existing content.  DLC can ADD content, but cannot remove it.  Once the game went gold, those three choices and the Catalyst were there to stay.

 Who said a dlc, it can be patched.

A fault in the writing of a story's ending is not the same as a bug that needs fixing. You won't get away with rewriting the entire ending and calling it a software fix. 

 An ending that doesnt allow for a sequel to be created can be conformed in one of two ways.

First, enforce a canon ending within the begining of the new sequel to show what actualy happened thus nulifying anything you did after harbringer knocked you out.

 Second, impliment a change in the game (ME3) via a patch update to remove the current endings and everything that happens after you are knocked out by harbringer. As it isnt an optional change for the playerbase its not download content but infact a patch to update the game to the relevent data.

Modifié par shingara, 08 août 2013 - 02:56 .

[Wayning_Star]

[/quote]


 That stargazer thing is a joke in and upon itself, the writers didnt have a scooby how to finish 3, they probably thought they wouldnt be working on a 4. All they thought was scrap shepard and legit and hope the fans argue amongst themselves about the outcome.

 Its probably why they have said they wanna do it in this timeframe which is just crazy, but they cant see a way of making a real sequel with the mess they have left themselves with. And what makes the MEU is the races etc that make up this universal timeframe.

[/quote]

I don't think our opinion of it matters much, that part is locked with the game dynamics. I doubt any of the argument was intended or expected. But there would be no way to actually judge how fans would react to a no win their way situation. The writers must of figured it would be a cool and ultimately different way to alter the 'boss fight' ending to most shooters as well as provide, even if quick'n dirty to some, Role Playing and immersive aspects. This is just my head canon tho.. after a year of reading posts here, I think its accurate, even if an assumption.

[Iakus]

Wayning_Star wrote...

I don't think our opinion of it matters much, that part is locked with the game dynamics. I doubt any of the argument was intended or expected. But there would be no way to actually judge how fans would react to a no win their way situation. The writers must of figured it would be a cool and ultimately different way to alter the 'boss fight' ending to most shooters as well as provide, even if quick'n dirty to some, Role Playing and immersive aspects. This is just my head canon tho.. after a year of reading posts here, I think its accurate, even if an assumption.

"Badly" is a pretty safe bet.  Especially when you continuously tout how important chocies are.

[shingara]

@wayning, dunno what happend with your quote but its gone funny. Anyhows its a mess they created for themselves and for a sequel tobe done its a mess they have to sort out themselves. They tried to please anyone and everyone. Problem was they split the community and in the proccess nulified every choice you had ever made.

Modifié par shingara, 08 août 2013 - 03:00 .

[Mcfly616]

A sequel isn't necessary.

[shingara]

Mcfly616 wrote...

A sequel isn't necessary.

 A prequel isnt necessary either, but pre history has been covered more then extenisvly, to have a new ME game in the current time frame is over shadowed by this trilogy. We know exactly what happens within this time frame especially with whats going on along side it.

[Wayning_Star]

iakus wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

I don't think our opinion of it matters much, that part is locked with the game dynamics. I doubt any of the argument was intended or expected. But there would be no way to actually judge how fans would react to a no win their way situation. The writers must of figured it would be a cool and ultimately different way to alter the 'boss fight' ending to most shooters as well as provide, even if quick'n dirty to some, Role Playing and immersive aspects. This is just my head canon tho.. after a year of reading posts here, I think its accurate, even if an assumption.

"Badly" is a pretty safe bet.  Especially when you continuously tout how important chocies are.

there is no way to tell, but there is only one outcome for the MEU. The devs probably will never divulge the actual canon for ME3. Maybe they don't actually know either?

[KaiserShep]

shingara wrote...

 An ending that doesnt allow for a sequel to be created can be conformed in one of two ways.

First enforce a canon ending within the begining of the new sequel to show what actualy happened thus nulifying anything you did after harbringer knocked you out.

 Second, impliment a change in the game via a patch update to remove the current endings and everything that happens after you are knocked out by harbringer. As it isnt an optional change for the playerbase its not download content but infact a patch to update the game to the relevent data.

A retcon in a hypothetical sequel is one thing, but locking out information in the original game is another entirely. This is why only so many demands can be addressed, because some go a bit too far. 

[shingara]

Wayning_Star wrote...

iakus wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

I don't think our opinion of it matters much, that part is locked with the game dynamics. I doubt any of the argument was intended or expected. But there would be no way to actually judge how fans would react to a no win their way situation. The writers must of figured it would be a cool and ultimately different way to alter the 'boss fight' ending to most shooters as well as provide, even if quick'n dirty to some, Role Playing and immersive aspects. This is just my head canon tho.. after a year of reading posts here, I think its accurate, even if an assumption.

"Badly" is a pretty safe bet.  Especially when you continuously tout how important chocies are.

there is no way to tell, but there is only one outcome for the MEU. The devs probably will never divulge the actual canon for ME3. Maybe they don't actually know either?

 Reminds me of an old joke, two goldfish in a tank, one turns around to the other and says whos driving this damn thing

[Wayning_Star]

shingara wrote...

@wayning, dunno what happend with your quote but its gone funny. Anyhows its a mess they created for themselves and for a sequel tobe done its a mess they have to sort out themselves. They tried to please anyone and everyone. Problem was they split the community and in the proccess nulified every choice you had ever made.

oh, I tried to trim back some of our discussion only to not format it correctly.  The Mods on here insist that there isn't going to be a sequel, or at least any ME "4", they were pretty sure about that one. I don't believe they split any community, they might of frustrated a few with the 'changes' they put them through and some others with a lack of a cookie cut ending scenario. By the time the next ME rolls around, fans should be curious enough as to how/where they went with the next installment. Maybe they'll change it around for you? (hope is good

[shingara]

KaiserShep wrote...

shingara wrote...

 An ending that doesnt allow for a sequel to be created can be conformed in one of two ways.

First enforce a canon ending within the begining of the new sequel to show what actualy happened thus nulifying anything you did after harbringer knocked you out.

 Second, impliment a change in the game via a patch update to remove the current endings and everything that happens after you are knocked out by harbringer. As it isnt an optional change for the playerbase its not download content but infact a patch to update the game to the relevent data.

A retcon in a hypothetical sequel is one thing, but locking out information in the original game is another entirely. This is why only so many demands can be addressed, because some go a bit too far. 

 Thing is it doesnt matter what we demand, its what the next main writers in the franchise decide to lock in as actual canon.

[Wayning_Star]

shingara wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

iakus wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

I don't think our opinion of it matters much, that part is locked with the game dynamics. I doubt any of the argument was intended or expected. But there would be no way to actually judge how fans would react to a no win their way situation. The writers must of figured it would be a cool and ultimately different way to alter the 'boss fight' ending to most shooters as well as provide, even if quick'n dirty to some, Role Playing and immersive aspects. This is just my head canon tho.. after a year of reading posts here, I think its accurate, even if an assumption.

"Badly" is a pretty safe bet.  Especially when you continuously tout how important chocies are.

there is no way to tell, but there is only one outcome for the MEU. The devs probably will never divulge the actual canon for ME3. Maybe they don't actually know either?

 Reminds me of an old joke, two goldfish in a tank, one turns around to the other and says whos driving this damn thing

they didn't know that was a radio controlled tank... fish aren't too bright..lol

[Wayning_Star]

shingara wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

shingara wrote...

 An ending that doesnt allow for a sequel to be created can be conformed in one of two ways.

First enforce a canon ending within the begining of the new sequel to show what actualy happened thus nulifying anything you did after harbringer knocked you out.

 Second, impliment a change in the game via a patch update to remove the current endings and everything that happens after you are knocked out by harbringer. As it isnt an optional change for the playerbase its not download content but infact a patch to update the game to the relevent data.

A retcon in a hypothetical sequel is one thing, but locking out information in the original game is another entirely. This is why only so many demands can be addressed, because some go a bit too far. 

 Thing is it doesnt matter what we demand, its what the next main writers in the franchise decide to lock in as actual canon.

well.. I know the canon ending but...

[shingara]

Wayning_Star wrote...

shingara wrote...

@wayning, dunno what happend with your quote but its gone funny. Anyhows its a mess they created for themselves and for a sequel tobe done its a mess they have to sort out themselves. They tried to please anyone and everyone. Problem was they split the community and in the proccess nulified every choice you had ever made.

oh, I tried to trim back some of our discussion only to not format it correctly.  The Mods on here insist that there isn't going to be a sequel, or at least any ME "4", they were pretty sure about that one. I don't believe they split any community, they might of frustrated a few with the 'changes' they put them through and some others with a lack of a cookie cut ending scenario. By the time the next ME rolls around, fans should be curious enough as to how/where they went with the next installment. Maybe they'll change it around for you? (hope is good

 The only thing they have been sure about is that no more mass effect games would have shepard within it. I dont get how you assume its around me, fact is that there are books and comics, minigames etc covering basically everything within this timeframe.

 Thus the easiest thing for a new set of writers to set out on is a blank slate, that is the future, all the past is harvest, cycle, harvest etc. I mean joking aside look what the writers for 3 did trying to take over from previous writers.

[Mcfly616]

shingara wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

A sequel isn't necessary.

 A prequel isnt necessary either, but pre history has been covered more then extenisvly, to have a new ME game in the current time frame is over shadowed by this trilogy. We know exactly what happens within this time frame especially with whats going on along side it.

I never said it was necessary. However, I disagree saying that the Shepard Trilogy would overshadow anything in the current timeframe. So Shepard and the Reapers are at the top of MEU food chain when it comes to Heroes and Villains. So what....Many people no longer want to be the defacto Savior of the Galaxy against an impossible force.


There are plenty of possibilities for stories taking place between the end of the First Contact War(2153) and 2183 that have absolutely nothing to do with the Shepard Trilogy. The codex covers major events. Not minor narratives that take place everyday in the galaxy.

[shingara]

Mcfly616 wrote...

shingara wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

A sequel isn't necessary.

 A prequel isnt necessary either, but pre history has been covered more then extenisvly, to have a new ME game in the current time frame is over shadowed by this trilogy. We know exactly what happens within this time frame especially with whats going on along side it.

I never said it was necessary. However, I disagree saying that the Shepard Trilogy would overshadow anything in the current timeframe. So Shepard and the Reapers are at the top of MEU food chain when it comes to Heroes and Villains. So what....Many people no longer want to be the defacto Savior of the Galaxy against an impossible force.


There are plenty of possibilities for stories taking place between the end of the First Contact War(2153) and 2183 that have absolutely nothing to do with the Shepard Trilogy. The codex covers major events. Not minor narratives that take place everyday in the galaxy.

 I think there are far far more people who want tobe shepard then anyone else. A game within this timeframe would have people screaming out that they want a dlc or some impact upon the game involving shepard being a temp crew member. And on the note who wants tobe some random when all that is going off ?


 As for between the first contact war 2183 is rather well covered via books.

Modifié par shingara, 08 août 2013 - 03:26 .